I'm voting for Kerry (and an apology)

JHendrix

Jello Pudding Pop, Y'know? Like that whole Bill C
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Seriously, no joke, I'm voting for John F. Kerry in the 2004 Election.

I feel like I owe an apology to some people here as I've recently come to realize how much of an incompitent SCAM Bush has pulled on not just our country, but the entire world.

I didn't change sides, so no I'm not some bleeding heart Lib, and I'm still very much a Conservative. In fact I'm looking for plans to start some kind of local move and a website with the mindset of "Conservatives for Kerry" as I believe that for this upcoming election us true conservatives NEED to side with the Democrats and get George W. Bush out of office before he does more damage.

I'd like to post more on this but I'm in a bit of a rush. Hell I was kind of hoping to not post much more here especially in political threads, but considering this is the main place I ever vocalized much support for GWB I wanted to just come out and say how much I now realize that he must be removed from office.

Peace

PS. Didn't see this one coming did you?

PPSS. No, I swear to god this is not a joke.
 

bokmeow

Ned's Ninja Academy Dropout
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Are you going to be building a website? I'll be happy to be one of your first supporters. I'm only getting started on the momentous task of crystallizing my vote, as the independent panel finally gets under way, and the administration is being pressured to yield to more scrutiny.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
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What sucks though is that honestly Kerry is not a great candidate either :/ so really it's like the Anyone but Bush campaign is working, but if Kerry is a shitty president I dunno.
 

K_K

Honourary Irishman.,
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TriShield said:
You're better off voting for Nader.
yeah vote for a third party, throw your vote away.
 

TriShield

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Kim _Kaphwan said:
yeah vote for a third party, throw your vote away.

I agree with lithy's post above.

Nader has done more to help the average person in his time than both President Bush and Senator Kerry ever will combined.

Lieberman, Edwards or Dean would have made much better candidates for the Democrats to run.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
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Kim _Kaphwan said:
yeah vote for a third party, throw your vote away.

I would vote Nader if I didn't feel so strongly to the fact that I think Bush simply needs to be out of office. Other years I'd be all over helping break up the 2 party system in America.
 

JHendrix

Jello Pudding Pop, Y'know? Like that whole Bill C
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lithy said:
What sucks though is that honestly Kerry is not a great candidate either :/ so really it's like the Anyone but Bush campaign is working, but if Kerry is a shitty president I dunno.

Oh yeah, believe me I know there are about eleventy bajillion issues that I will completely disagree with Kerry on, and I have my doubts on the guy...

Honestly the one thing that deathly scares me about Kerry is the possibility that he'll cut Military and Intelligence spending, which is about the worst thing that can be done in the current climate. This is ESPECIALLY true because of the situation Bush got us into in Iraq. As bad as it is, there are still ways to turn it around into a Positive, and I don't think I trust the administration to handle it properly.

Actually I think Conservatives are really screwed in this election as we have no true candidate to support, but I think at least on the National security front, and even on *gulp* the budget/taxes, Kerry is the candidate who is at least saying the correct things that need to be done to put this country back on track.

I mean, I'd REALLY have to see some definitive evidence that Kerry would really cut defense and/or intelligence spending to even consider reluctantly putting Bush back in office, and even then that's a stretch. And no, don't spout the normal rhetoric that you'll hear on the radio shows or in Bush's ads - that's all false or was also endorsed by the GOP.

Honestly, I don't like this situation at all, I mean really I can't stand it. I was half tempted to just not vote at all, but that'd almost be a vote for Bush, which at this point I'm pretty convinced needs to go.
 

Zeekade Zarathos

Krizalids Fashion Designer
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Posts
1,845
Holy Jesus somebody take a snapshot of this thread.

Seriously though, I commend JHendrix with his honesty and "looking-at-all-sides-of-an-issue"-atude (I'm sure there's a word for that, but the one I just made up will do just fine). It's hard to change your mind about these things. The easy way out would have been for JH to just close his eyes and shut his ears and sing "Lalalalala" all the way to the voting booth, but he didn't. *golf clap*

Anyhoo, I don't think anyone will really feel *great* about either of the candidates, so I guess, sadly, the key is to vote for the person who you feel less likely will destroy the world ala The Dead Zone. And with that criteria, Kerry's the one that fits the bill.
 

Bluevoodu

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Kerry is going to SUCK!

no vote from me..... may he never step in office either.

†B†V†
 

Loopz

Formerly Punjab,
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Aug 16, 2001
Posts
12,871
Amazed? Yes.

Time for gloating? Naw. Thought crossed my mind, but the simple fact is that Bush has betrayed every American, aside from his corporate donors. You'd have to be a deaf, blind, and dumb party zealot to subscribe to the absolute bullshit coming from their camp. Are we better off than four years ago? Hell no.

Believe me, Kerry was my absolute LEAST fave of the Demo pool.
Passionless Washington insiders make my political willie shrink.
Bush's biggest opponent is his own record, reprehensibly greedy cabinet, and deteriorating situations both with the job market and escalating violence in Iraq. Powell aside, GWB's political think-tank sucks BALLS. They can't even remember the bullshit they spouted recently, witness the Donald Rumsfeld OWNED thread.

I'd even vote for GWB's father over him. The elder Bush comes off like FDR or Lincoln compared to Dubya. So much damage has been done to America the last four years, be it from spiralling deficits, to 2.9 million lost jobs, to the nearly 600 American soldiers who have died in an unnecessary war. This man must be ejected from office by any means necessary.

I give JHendrix props for having the cojones to publicly admit to such a massive personal 180. Facts are facts though, and anyone with an ounce of intelligence who examines this situation rationally simply CANNOT say that GWB deserves four more years.
 
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Kid Aphex

samus' love slave,
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Posts
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Let's just hope there's not a convenient terrorist attack prior to the elections, allowing Bush to suspend the constitution and postpone them indefinitely.

Hey...just food for thought. I wouldn't put it in the realm of the unbelievable just yet...

Also, kudos to Jhendrix...big time. You can tell he's just interested in bettering the country.
 

Bluevoodu

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Loopz said:
Amazed? Yes.

Time for gloating? Naw. Thought crossed my mind, but the simple fact is that Bush has betrayed every American, aside from his corporate donors. You'd have to be a deaf, blind, and dumb party zealot to subscribe to the absolute bullshit coming from their camp. Are we better off than four years ago? Hell no.

Believe me, Kerry was my absolute LEAST fave of the Demo pool.
Passionless Washington insiders make my political willie shrink.
Bush's biggest opponent is his own record, reprehensibly greedy cabinet, and deteriorating situations both with the job market and escalating violence in Iraq. Powell aside, GWB's political think-tank sucks BALLS. They can't even remember the bullshit they spouted recently, witness the Donald Rumsfeld OWNED thread.

I'd even vote for GWB's father over him. The elder Bush comes off like FDR or Lincoln compared to Dubya. So much damage has been done to America the last four years, be it from spiralling deficits, to 2.9 million lost jobs, to the nearly 600 American soldiers who have died in an unnecessary war. This man must be ejected from office by any means necessary.

I give JHendrix props for having the cojones to publicly admit to such a massive personal 180. Facts are facts though, and anyone with an ounce of intelligence who examines this situation rationally simply CANNOT say that GWB deserves four more years.

you know how long it takes for a bill's effect to show in our economy? IE bill's that Clinton Passed... we are now seeing the effect of them. It takes 4-6 years for it to cycle into the economy.

also, wouldn't you say many of those job losses are grossly related to 9/11? HENCE all of Bush's decisions have been related to that direction as well.

Would you just sit back or would you fight....?

I don't think the entire American voting public knows what to do or to think anymore. Too much has happened in the last 4 years. And how easy is it to point fingers and say what a terrible job someone is doing..... but actually think of having to be in his Shoes...... and dealing with the situations at hand.

all I have to say is.. THANK GOD Gore wasn't in office during these last 4 years.

Maybe Bush is not the best president.... but I will be voting against Kerry. The thought of Kerry in Office... *shudders*

†B†V†
 

Loopz

Formerly Punjab,
Joined
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Posts
12,871
you know how long it takes for a bill's effect to show in our economy? IE bill's that Clinton Passed... we are now seeing the effect of them. It takes 4-6 years for it to cycle into the economy.

also, wouldn't you say many of those job losses are grossly related to 9/11? HENCE all of Bush's decisions have been related to that direction as well.

Would you just sit back or would you fight....?

I don't think the entire American voting public knows what to do or to think anymore. Too much has happened in the last 4 years. And how easy is it to point fingers and say what a terrible job someone is doing..... but actually think of having to be in his Shoes...... and dealing with the situations at hand.

all I have to say is.. THANK GOD Gore wasn't in office during these last 4 years.

Maybe Bush is not the best president.... but I will be voting against Kerry. The thought of Kerry in Office... *shudders*

Save that shit. I've done more than my share of homework to absolutely KNOW that GWB is a fucking idiot who's done more damage to American global credibility than anyone else...EVER.
Ask yourself...could anyone have done any worse? I think not.
He completely squandered all the sympathy our nation was extended after 9/11 and pursued a war that hasn't done ANYTHING to enhance our security and spent billions we don't have, a bill that will only come due until long after he is gone from office, even if he is reelected. Pull your head out of your ass dude.
 

TriShield

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Loopz said:
Save that shit. I've done more than my share of homework to absolutely KNOW that GWB is a fucking idiot who's done more damage to American global credibility than anyone else...EVER.

You totally avoided his points on the economy and went on to spout more pointless vitriol. Of all the members on this site, you come of as one of the most blindly partisan.
 

A-Train

Quiz Detective
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I love when people use the line about fearing what would happen if Gore was in office. Here's some possibilities: he would have understood that Al Qaeda was a threat and made some type of move against them, we would have gone to war with Afghanistan whether or not September 11th happened, we might have still gone to war with Iraq, and some folks would have lost jobs. The difference? Gore wouldn't have said that the economy is fine with a straight face while also claiming the world is a safer place by fighting a war that has done nothing but turn even more Islamic fundamentalists against us. You have to understand that I hated Gore and voted for Nader, but to say that things would be so awful if Gore was in office is absurd. I'm voting for Kerry. Why? Because he's not Bush. But more than that, he understands that everything isn't black and white. Sure, he's rich, career politician, blah blah blah, but people that use that against him seem to forget that Bush didn't exactly come from poverty and he wasn't exactly new to politics.
 

bokmeow

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A-Train said:
I love when people use the line about fearing what would happen if Gore was in office. Here's some possibilities: he would have understood that Al Qaeda was a threat and made some type of move against them, we would have gone to war with Afghanistan whether or not September 11th happened, we might have still gone to war with Iraq, and some folks would have lost jobs. The difference? Gore wouldn't have said that the economy is fine with a straight face while also claiming the world is a safer place by fighting a war that has done nothing but turn even more Islamic fundamentalists against us. You have to understand that I hated Gore and voted for Nader, but to say that things would be so awful if Gore was in office is absurd. I'm voting for Kerry. Why? Because he's not Bush. But more than that, he understands that everything isn't black and white. Sure, he's rich, career politician, blah blah blah, but people that use that against him seem to forget that Bush didn't exactly come from poverty and he wasn't exactly new to politics.
Word.
 

Loopz

Formerly Punjab,
Joined
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You totally avoided his points on the economy and went on to spout more pointless vitriol. Of all the members on this site, you come of as one of the most blindly partisan.

Not at all. I'm hardly a card-carrying Democrat, in fact I'm registered as an independent.

GWB's spending is so far from Conservative, this is what is costing him the votes from people like JHendrix. Right now there are giant budget deficits projected, much larger than anything incurred during Cold War spending in the 80s.

2.9 million jobs have been lost since GWB took office. Yes, I'm sure a fair share of these can be attributed to hits on tourism and the airlines as a result of 9/11, but not close to the majority.
GWB's only solution for all these ills have been tax cuts that supposedly promote growth, but what good are tax cuts when you've projected all these giant deficits? The top 1% of wealthy Americans were the ones who got the vast majority of these tax cuts, not the working class or those who would actually spend enough to get the economy moving.
It's literally like giving someone a cash advance...that you got from charging their credit card. The only difference here is that the bill won't show up until GWB is long gone, and people like you and I and our children will be trying to pay for this shit by killing off our Social Security benefits. It's a neat trick, and you can see right through it if you stop long enough to ignore the rhetoric and look past the smoke.

Call me vitriolic, partisan, whatever, but the facts are facts.
The fact that someone who was such a die-hard GWB supporter like JHendrix would change his mind speaks volumes. I'm sure he's far from alone. 2004 is destined to be a truly wild political year.
 

JHendrix

Jello Pudding Pop, Y'know? Like that whole Bill C
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I was hoping to avoid the big post (heh, fancy I'd change that too eh?), but BV I gotta point some big facts out that helped bring me to this PAINFUL decision.

I fully and truely believed that Iraq had WMD's. Really I truely did, just from what I know of our intelligence community and everything, we're the best. I also believed Bush, and Powell when they told us. I figured France and the rest were either way wrong OR they had alterior motives (I think there has been a little bit of that on BOTH sides of the Atlantic). But this is where it starts to get scarry, like Kid Aphex conspiracy theory scary (no offense, this is kind of going down the same road).

Just follow me on this. We get intel that shows Iraq has WMD's. Most of the world agrees, hence the UN inspections and resolutions. Thing is, we want to go to war. Fine, I'm thinking we know some things they don't and they don't have the cajones to act and Bush does. So I was adimant in supporting the War in Iraq, I was litterally CONVINCED that we'd find WMD's after the brief skirmish was over. "We'll show em" was litterally my additude; I had that much faith in the administration.

There are no WMD's in Iraq. We looked for em, the UN looked for em, hell AUNT FRIGGIN JEMIMA LOOKED FOR EM, and we got NOTHING.

Now there are 2 possibilities here, Bush is screwed on either one:

1.) Iraq HAD WMD's before the (current) War, and has either hidden them or found a way to get them into Sudan or into Saudi Arabia.

Worst case scenario for the world and Bush if true. IF he had the weapons and has them in hiding that means they're about open game for people to either find, and possibly fall into the wrong hands, or the people who hid them for Saddam could sell them to Al Quidea or equivalent organization. That is a huge problem.

Second he HAD WMD's and has found a way to smuggle them out of Iraq, also terrible/big/huge problem.

Either way the fact that we pussy-footed around for 9+ months just letting them know what we were going in there to look for just might give him the opportunity to hide or sell them ASAP.

And on top of that, if it IS true and WE LET IT GO BY with all of our sattelite technology and surveilance of that country, it is one of the largest blunders in intelligence that the US has probably ever seen.

I mean if you KNOW they got WMD's, you get a quick coalition together and just go, you don't wait around. The fact that he waited around so long when he was SO SURE of an imminent threat is just crazy.

So what's the deal?

I mean, I don't believe Bush would have some evil plot to lie to the US and the world - and to this day I don't think Powell would either, however I think they were mislead. Possibly by Rumsfield or some other evil force that I pray to god really doesn't exist in the Administration/Government. And even if this is true and GWB didn't mislead us intentionally, then I don't want a man who is so easily mislead himself by his subordinates to be in charge of our country in this time of peril!

And that other possibility? Iraq just didn't have WMD's, but tried to lead on that they did. I think this is the most logical explanation for Iraq, and I really pray that it is the true one. It does fit into Saddams style and logically it makes SO MUCH SENSE.

Tell the UN that you have no weapons, their inspectors find no evidence of said weapons.

Do some stupid measures to lead on that you might have WMD's, this leads some fear that if they ever did try and attack you that you might just go nuts and push the button to kill a million plus people. Plus it makes some of the terrorist organizations who might normally hate you (Al Quidea specifically) be sort of nice to you if they think they can buy some nukes.

And besides, who's going to attack your country for having WMD's when they'll never be able to find hard evidence that you have them in the first place? I mean no one is THAT stupid!

************

Sorry back on track to more important points:

The fact that the US went into Iraq on the basis of WMD's AND CAN'T FIND ANY, has done so much to hurt us on the War on Terror (which I still whole heartedly believe in) that it's not even funny. I mean really, you have justifiably pissed off the Arab world (not to mention the rest of the world who WAS overwhelmingly ready to help the US in the WoT after 9/11).

I mean, going into Afghanistan didn't anger most of the Arab nations, some of the more fundies got enraged, but not the whole region - most governments at least officially supported us. Not so in Iraq. WE NEED THE HELP OF THOSE GOVERNMENTS TO CRACK DOWN ON THE TERRORISTS THAT ARE INSIDE THIER BORDERS!

This is the major screw up of Bush, IMO.

Sure there are benefits from the War in Iraq for us, we can stabalize a country, install a Democracy, and most importantly keep a military base in there to "keep the peace" and constantly be a reminder to the surrounding nations that a ground force is never too far away from deployment should they get too out of line. And yes there is a plan to use Iraq to force democracy in the other countries, BUT THIS DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE WAR IN IRAQ!

Bush can enact on those benefits and possibly make them work, but it'll cause more bloodshed, since about 90% of the rest of the world hates him. Kerry can get in there, enact the plan, and patch things up with the rest of the world.

I think your average Arab would be less inclined to hate the US if they see that we take Bush out of office. I'm not talking about appeasing terrorists, I'm talking about getting the innocent civilians to realize that WE'RE ON THEIR SIDE! That way they might be inclined to turn over the bastards that hide amongst them.

****************************

Also, I would almost fear Kerry cutting the military/intelligence since he's been so blindingly liberal in this reguard back in the 80's/90's (he did vote against most major weapons systems that are VERY MUCH instrumental in the War on Terror and other areas). However, if there is one thing you can count on with Kerry is that he'll blow where the popular winds take him, and after 9/11 I can not see the popular winds allowing him to cut back on defense and security.

This is doubly true if there is still a Republican majority in Congress.

****************************

Other minor issues: Taxes.

Yes I believe in Tax cuts, even for the rich and "teh EVAL" corporations. It stimulates economic growth. But that only works well if you cut the governments spending, which Bush has done the exact opposite.

Kerry's removing of Bush's tax cuts for people making over $400K a year would do very much to pay off the irresponsible spending Bush has done in his administration.

I hate tax and spend liberals with a passion, however I really hate fake conservative republicans who cut taxes and spend more.

Get this through your heads guys, Bush != a Fiscal Conservative.

Also Tax & Spend > Less Taxes + More Spending.

****************************

One more note that's no where near as important as the above two. Gay marriage.

Amending the constitution for an issue that is so stupid as gay marriage is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

As much as I do not think Homosexuality is the right choice of lifestyle*, we can not deny them the right to marry the person they love simply because "we don't like it" here in the Religious Right.

Why?

Because we can not and should not make being gay illegal. As such denying them the right to marry does not make any logical sense. And it is EXTREMELY WRONG to deny them that just because "we're in the majority and we don't like it so they can't do it".

Why? Because what happens if one day the majority is against us (the Religious Right), and decide they can opress us simply because they're in the majority?

Unlikely sure, but it could happen. And I for one enjoy having intellectual integrity when I decide where I stand on an issue.

Solution: Make a national law defining "civil unions" for gay people that have all the benefits and responsibilities of hetero marriage. Of course it'd be called civil unions because people have a bug up their butt about gay people being "married".

I hate symmantics. :mad:

*****************************

Ok, I'm done my ranting. Sorry, it made me feel good to rave for a bit. I'm going to have a beer now and go to bed. With luck I may have brought a fellow conservative over to my side, if not then at least I've made up for supporting GWB like I did before.

Peace-friggin-out.
 
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