Edit: The newly born FAQ : Arcade Collecting and The Art of the Deal -- WIP

Tacitus

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EDIT: This thread has been cleaned of the debate over price. That is in a new thread with all original comments intact. Please keep this on topic.
Thanks
- D-Lite

http://www.coinopexpress.com/products/pcbs/neo_geo/?alpha=N


You're welcome.


Edit :

This thread is going to be a brain dump for a FAQ on the ins and outs of arcade collecting and procurement on the "cheap". A lot of the community IMO over pays for their collection because of a lack of knowledge or means on how to acquire arcade games and parts.

If someone wants to organize/edit the following posts for me, I'd really appreciate it. Take a co-author credit, I don't care. I just don't feel like organizing it on the fly.

Give credit to me for the knowledge and writing, that all I ask.

Here we go:
 
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loopyeddie

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Shipping is killer and they have a minimum order of $200, $500 if you want to use paypal.
 

Tacitus

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Before this gets rolling....

This thread is going to be a FAQ in progress on how to get Neo stuff, arcade stuff, specifically... cheap or at least cheaper than what you're seeing on the "open market"... boards and ebay.

I'd debated a FAQ for this for a while, but the Ben Heck thread and my ongoing debate with Supergoose and D-lite about consolized mvs' finally inspired me to do this.

I'm going to be posting shortly on proven ways of procuring arcade stuff from a variety of sources, some outside of the "known" market for things. This may sounds like a sales pitch or a stupid spammer... but this is gathered from years of experience in arcade collecting/buying/selling/trading.

When I get home from work, I'll do the first one, which is:

The Lazy, Greedy Op.
 

Tacitus

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SamuraiShodownSensei said:
Minimum order is $200 from coinop. + shipping

I'm well aware of that... $200 is STILL less than you're going to pay domestically. Throw a cart in and go with slower shipping and you're going to come in at a better price than you would from ebay or here.

I got my first 6-slot from them a while ago and paid relatively minor shipping from their Hong Kong branch.
 

Tacitus

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Arcade Ops, referred to as Ops from here on are the businesses or (most of the time) people/person that furnish arcade machines, vending machines and almost anything coin operated to your town. They usually have a route, which is a bunch of businesses or locations that they put machines out on and maintain, collect income and repair their machine on.

They operate by paying a fee to the location owner, own their own locations or rent out machines to businesses who want coin operated machines for themselves. Some operators (and it's a growing trend) sell or rent machines to people like you and I.

Realize one thing about the arcade business. It's dying. It's also an old man's game. There are very few young ops left and if they are, they probably inherited the business or bought it from someone else. No one gets into this business much anymore.

Most OPs that are left do two things. They pull old machines out and put them in their ever growing warehouses and install megatouch machines, snack machines, DDR's and jukeboxes. Everytime they put a machine back in the warehouse, they lose money. It costs a lot to store them and it makes them lose what little income they were getting from said machine on the route.

Arcade ops make their money by putting machines out on their route.. if it's sitting in their warehouse, it's an albatross.

Ops are greedy guys, they also tend to be very lazy.

Ops understand one thing and one thing only. Money. Most ops don't do much repair anymore, unless it's on site and it's a high volume machine. It's not cost effective. If he's got a flaky monitor on site that he can't fix when he cleans out the coin box before he leaves, he'll just pull the machine and put another in the next time he's in the area.

What does this mean?

Our first point:

Learn how to repair machines and how they work.

(more to come.. have to eat dinner)
 

norton9478

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Ops are lazy......

But they have this fucking stupid beligierance.

As soon as you want some POS, they suddenly think that it is worth alot and overcharge you only to warehouse the thing, loose money on it then sell it dirt cheap to some other jackass for even les money.
 

Tacitus

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norton9478 said:
Ops are lazy......

But they have this fucking stupid beligierance.

As soon as you want some POS, they suddenly think that it is worth alot and overcharge you only to warehouse the thing, loose money on it then sell it dirt cheap to some other jackass for even les money.


We're getting to this point shortly.. and how to negotiate with these guys, how they come up with their "prices" when you make an offer and how to disarm them when they turn on their "op routine"

I *have* to sit down for dinner and collect my thoughts.

If anyone has questions or comments, post them up here and hopefully we can answer them along the way and incorporate them into this.
 

norton9478

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VanillaThunder said:
We're getting to this point shortly.. and how to negotiate with these guys, how they come up with their "prices" when you make an offer and how to disarm them when they turn on their "op routine"

I *have* to sit down for dinner and collect my thoughts.

If anyone has questions or comments, post them up here and hopefully we can answer them along the way and incorporate them into this.

Yeah sorry to jump the gun. I still hate opps.
 

sven666

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good thread with a horrid opening..

coinop are a beacon for unreliable stocklists and overpriced items.. you should have linked to cosmic instead. :)
 

Tacitus

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sven666 said:
good thread with a horrid opening..

coinop are a beacon for unreliable stocklists and overpriced items.. you should have linked to cosmic instead. :)

It started as a thread about $175 6-slot.

I've *never* had a bad deal with coin-op or their stock availability. They may be overpriced on some things, but I find a fair amount of their sales and a portion of their regular stock to have some amazing prices.

I've bought several thousand dollars in stuff from them, not a single issue, not once. Apparently I am in the minority, though, from what I've heard.
 

sven666

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VanillaThunder said:
It started as a thread about $175 6-slot.

I've *never* had a bad deal with coin-op or their stock availability. They may be overpriced on some things, but I find a fair amount of their sales and a portion of their regular stock to have some amazing prices.

I've bought several thousand dollars in stuff from them, not a single issue, not once. Apparently I am in the minority, though, from what I've heard.

just to clarify that ive never had a bad deal with coin-op either, theyre great and very friendly, ive bought lots of stuff from them aswell, but their site is notoriuosly sloppy and their prices are pretty high when compared to other sellers.

as far as this whole supergun price thing goes, you get what you pay for and the craftmanship from some of you guys is amazing, i have personally recomended d-lite to several people asking where to get a supergun simply because his stuff is high quality and hes a great guy to deal with...

in contrast a friend of mine bought one of those $100 superguns from ebay.de and its a real piece of shit, shoddy and clunky.
i think eveyone is aware that diy is cheaper than the finished product, but some people just dont want to go thru the hassle..

..sorry bout the rant, im off to bed, nightynight.
 

djjimmyjames

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personally

Im just getting into this scene but I can tell you what I already know. Go to any arcade and or bar if you see that they have any coin operated machines, then you know there probably rented. Most people are to lazy to do this. It gets tricky here, call them up and tell them you want any neo geo stuff they may have. If they try and rip you off go to the next guy cause there are tons of these dinasours around. ALWAYS make sure to leave them your number. Dont haggle for very long you know what you want and you want it cheap cause if its sittin in there wharehouse it aint makin shit for a profit. I recently went to a bar and saw a four slot cab I called the rentall company and asked how much he wanted for it. He told me $700, I started laughing and gave him my number and told him to be resonable and to call me when he could be. I didnt even hang up the phone before the guy told me to come down to his wherehouse, he had lots of good stuff and he would sell it to me for a good price. So I went down and it was in this little po-dunk town in the middle of no where. He had four machines and about twenty carts. I told him a grand for everything and he said no, but he will call me back I can gaurantee it cause he wants money hes gonna hit a bad moment where he needs cash and he will call me. I gaurantee it. That s how its done. Call amusement companies that are huge for your carts. If there selling tons of machines the last thing they usually care about is some cart left over from neo geo machines they sold years ago. I hope this helps a little. This is how I buy everything no neo store and no ebay(unless its worth the buck you work so hard for). I will never pay over 25 dollars for a semi complete kit, never. One on one interaction with companies is the best way to go. People on ebay are making money. You want to find someone interested in getting rid of there stuff cause there either A. tired of seing it rot away and have no use for it or. B. have no more room for it, it must go cheap syndrom. Ok I hope this did help a little with what your doing. Im getting an older cion op pool table for $150 using this method. Plus I have a list of kits from an amusement company all are $24 a piece and they have tons of them, so ive found my special place what are you waiting for go get yours.
 

supergoose

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sven666 said:
in contrast a friend of mine bought one of those $100 superguns from ebay.de and its a real piece of shit, shoddy and clunky.
that's exactly what i said many times, before. the guy who made these only used the most inexpensive parts and also seems to be a bit lazy.

it's also the reason, why i did not just fix Rot's guns he sent me, but instead made the gun you can see in my sig ... and am even thinking about making a few more of them just to prove that it can be done better.
just ordered 60 push buttons for about 100€. normally, they go for about 2.50€ each, but my local store gave me a special deal. compared to that ... the ones that he used aren't even 0.20€ each.
 

Tacitus

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...continued...

The two most important things you can do in this hobby are:

1. Learn how to fix an arcade machine
2. Learn how an arcade machine works

I listed them separately because they're very different.

Merely fixing is swapping fuses, learning how to tune/degauss a monitor, rewiring a harness, learning how to test voltages for sound/video issues.

How it works is a different animal. When you learn how a machine works, you can prevent the maintenance for the most part, save yourself a ton of $$$ and frustration. Yeah, you can fix the fuses on your power, but WHY does it do that? What is hapenning that is making your voltages fluctuate even after you fiddled with those weird knobs on the power supply? How come when I touch my cab, I get a tiny shock when it's on? What the fuck do words like JAMMA, System16, Taito Classic, KONAMI conversion and Atari Class mean?

The best thing to do to learn these things is getting back to our discussion of ops.

Yes, ops know how to repair these things. DO they feel like it most of the time? No. They're either too busy or running their quarters through the counters.

When ops bring back these things to their warehouses, for the most part, they sit. Maintaining a route is very grueling and they can only repair their machines should they hire someone to do it or they have free time.

How does this tie in to repair?

There are 3 distinct types of machine you'll see in a warehouse:

1. Machines that are broken
2. Machines that don't make money anymore
3. Machines that are repaired and about to make their way back out

Don't concern yourself with number 3. When we get to the discussion of the warehouse raid and negotiating, you'll know why.

When you get to talk to the op, your GOAL is to get inside his warehouse. THE WORST thing you can do is meet him out at a location, arranged meeting or not. A lot of people make this mistake because they fall in love with "the machine" and loses hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on stuff that's been getting beat on regularly and probably hasn't even been cleaned out.

Remember this single fact. Arcade Machines are like cockroaches.. if you see one on the op's route.. odds are he's got 5 or more in the warehouse if it's an older machine. (Anything before about 1998) *You* don't know this, but he does. He can sell you that machine for $500 when it only makes $10 a week on location, pocket your cash replace it and still come out ahead.

This is why the warehouse is *your* home turf. When you're on location, he's got the benefit of your ignorance. You may want that Gauntlet cab that's been in the pizza parlor for 20 years and you played as a kid... and you let him know this... and he'll make sure you pay out the nose for it. When you see 25 of them in his warehouse and you've got $$$ in your hand for it, it becomes a different game.

Ops prey on your ignorance. There are some honest guys out there and it's great when you can find one (you keep these guys on your short list), but from my own and many other people's experiences.. they' crooked old curmudgeons who only care about the next dollar. You're looking for any bit of leverage on you and you need to turn the tables.

Anyways, remember: The warehouse is your goal. You will not buy from an op directly off of his location

There are a few tried and true ways to get into that warehouse and a few I came up with on my own.

1. The phone book.

Open the yellow pages. Go to Vending, Coin-op and Arcade. Start making phone calls.

What you don't want to say is "Hey, I'm a collector and I'm looking for machine X". That's the best way to ensure you're going to get his worst cab that he managed to get somewhat working and that you're going to pay top dollar for it.

What you want to do is ask if he's got a warehouse that you'd like to come down to and speak with him at. When he asks why, you play it off or just say I'm interested in getting a few machines for your location and I'm not exactly sure what I want. (He hears money, he's listening) Don't DON'T tell him you want to rent them. Leave it very vague. If it gets to the point where it's getting specific, say anything, but DON'T say you're a collector.

2. The Location

I know I said it before, but hey... it's worth mentioning. Sometimes you see a machine on site and the guy is servicing it. Be courteous but QUICK! He wants his cash box and to get out of there. Just say you're interested in a machine for your location, you're sorry to bother him and you'd like to meet him when he's not busy or in his office/warehouse. Ask for a card. THEY ALWAYS CARRY CARDS. This takes you back to the warehouse raid.

3. The County or Township offices

Did you know that ops have to pay an Amusement Tax on every machine they operate? Did you know that in many areas they need a license to act as a coin-op operator?

Did you know those records are public information?

Yes, I've done this. Go to your county records/registrar and ask for a list of all licensed coin-operators in the area. Might cost you a few bucks for the xeroxing, but you get a list of EVERY op. Get on the phones again.

Another tip is this... ask for records from 10 and 15 years ago if you can get them. Why? Most ops are older. Many retired or went bankrupt in the mid 90's after SF2 ran its course and the business went south again.

Find out who owned the business and call them directly. Be VERY careful when you do this, but it does work.

Many of these guys owned their own warehouses and simply closed up shop and let them sit. Any money you give them for their machines is a few bucks in their pocket. You would NOT BELIEVE how common this is. Just think of how things were about 10 years ago towards the end and how many machines you saw. They didn't dissapear into thin air.

4. The Internet

There are a growin number of ops who are internet tantric. These guys are (most of the time) not who you want to deal with because they probably know how much you'll pay, but it can't hurt. No one holds a gun to your head and tells you to buy a machine. You may even get a good deal, a good information resource and a contact for more machines out of it.

5. The Laundromat

Sounds asinine, right? Well, you'd be surprised how many laundromat owners also happen to be operators. Look for the guy in charge.

...continued...
 

Tacitus

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supergoose79 said:
just ordered 60 push buttons for about 100€. normally, they go for about 2.50€ each, but my local store gave me a special deal. compared to that ... the ones that he used aren't even 0.20€ each.

You're overpaying, in a few posts, you'll see why.
 

16-bit

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I'm thinking about getting a consolized 2-slot, but don't want to go thru the efforts to build one. Still I would like to know how it works to fix it on my own if it ever breaks. Thanks for your efforts.
 

Tacitus

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...continued...

Ok, so we've made contact with the operator, we've somehow managed to get to meet him at his warehouse.

What next?

You need your kit. Everytime you go to a warehouse, you want to take the following things with you (in fact, when we get to auctions, you're going to take this and a few other things with you)

For a warehouse raid/visit, you want a small, portable kit. An Op, most of the time... and especially the first 2 or 3 times you meet with him you don't want him to be put off. They're not going to let you run through their warehouse unattended most of the time and if you go in with a bunch of stuff he may just tell you to fuck off. They're pricks like that.


Voltmeter/Ammeter - One Small enough to fit in your pocket. You'll need this to test parts/machines that you want. This goes along with what we'll talk about later.. learning the craft.

Small tool kit -- A Multi-Bit screwdriver works wonders. Most screws on a machine are, in order of frequency: Philips Head, Hex Screw,Flat Head, hex nut. Find an all in one that stores bits in the handle.

Leatherman -- Do I need to explain?

Palm VII -- What? A Palm VII? Yeah, here's why:


http://www.klov.com/palm7/

If you can't, any other cheap palm will do.. and you'll need this file:

http://www.klov.com/klov.txt

The people at KLOV (Killer List of Videogames) www.klov.com were nice enough to put together a top notch database of all general technical attributes of every arcade game their members have information on.

The Palm app is the digitized version of it and the text file is the next best thing. They enable you to get any general info on the machine you want/see. If you're looking for a JAMMA cab and you're not sure if a machine is or not without opening it up, BOOM, bring it up.. it's there. If you get a fancy smartphone or wifi device w/ access, you can access the db directly and it's a bit more expansive. I own a Palm VII for just this use. Warehouses are dirty, sometimes dangerous places and you don't want to drop a nice phone or palm there.. or have it in your pocket and run into a corner of a machine with it in your pocket and crack the screen. (Yeah, I did that) They're cheap to replace and had on ebay for a few bucks. I use the text version because it's easy to search and fairly straightforward.

Work Clothes -- It's a warehouse.. things are dirty and dangerous. You don't want to ruin stuff in there.

Boots -- Once again, warehouse... and things have a tendency to fall or shift when you're around a machine.

Your List -- Before you get this, you're going to compile a list of things you'd like, things worth money to other collectors and things of interest. A warehouse is a candy store to people like us and it's VERY easy to get sidetracked or star struck. Make a list of things you're on the lookout for.

MOST IMPORTANTLY

Cash.

NOT CHECKS, NOT CREDIT CARDS, NOT GOING TO A MAC MACHINE TO PICK UP THE MONEY.

You want cash.. and lots of it. Make sure the op *sees* the cash or knows that you have CASH on you.

They're FAR easier to deal with when they know the pot of gold is at the end of the rainbow.



The mindset:

You're going to a warehouse to pick get a deal. Yes, your main goal should be to get what you want, but sometimes that doesn't work out exactly. You may not find what you want, but you may find some other things that other would want or are worth some cash to fund your own hunt. What may look like junk to you, may not be to another collector. Ops are hoarding nuts who care very little for the collector's aspect. What you bring out of these places may not have been seen in 20 years, do others a favor.. bring it back out into circulation. ;) You can also make some coin for picking up stuff for yourself, this funds many of our habits. :)

...continued...
 

norton9478

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Well put.

I don't know if VT has made this clear but:

WHENEVER DEALING WITH OPPS (NO MATTER UNDER WHAT PREMISE), MAKE SURE THAT IT IS 100% CLEAR TO THEM THAT AFTER THE SALE, YOU WILL NOT BOTHER THEM WITH MAITNANCE OR REPAIR QUESTIONS!!!!!!!

they are more likely to work with you if they are assured that you will not bother them when your BUtton A fails.
 

Tacitus

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Before I get much deeper into this...


Is anyone benefitting from this? I don't want to type for hours if no one is reading it or it's not helping.

Next chpater coming soon..
 

djjimmyjames

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ya

Keep going man this is all good info. Ops are stingy and greedy and want only money and lots of it. They all got huge tastes in the 80's and 90's and are usually stuck there with the prices that they ask. I remember going to a chucky cheese auction when I was younger and seing 95% of there cabs go for under a $100.00. I wished I would of had more cash. Thats another thing auctions, boy can you get some fabulous stuff at auction.

I have a better story, it was 98 or 99 and my boy said he saved enough money to buy a street fighter cab. So he contacted a place in rochester and he paid 2,500.00 for super street fighter II turbo. At the time we didnt know anybetter. The place built the whole cab for him with a big 25 inch monitor. I thought he was nuts for buying it for that much and even stupider when he sold it back to the guy for 650.00 less than a year later, mind you this machine was mint. We played that exact machine a year later at put-put. I told my boy I would of givin him 650.00 for it but he sold it a week before I knew. This is major greed on the ops part a ton of profit is all they want. So he mad a profit the first time of over a grand and probably made about two of it after it was sold to some other company or rented.
 

NeoCverA

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VanillaThunder said:
Before I get much deeper into this...


Is anyone benefitting from this? I don't want to type for hours if no one is reading it or it's not helping.

Next chpater coming soon..

yeah, I'm enjoying the read.

So THAT's a leatherman.........seen them for years, never knew the name.
 

DanAdamKOF

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VT, this is great stuff. It's a damn shame you didn't do this, say, a summer or two ago where I had a steady income and a ton of spare time; now that the school year's started and I have so much shit going on in my life and no job, I don't think I have the time or cash to do this. I'd love to hit up some ops for cheap MVS carts, but I need time and money for that.


And, I guess I know now how you had so many JAMMA harnesses :D.


(BTW if you still wanna do that trade, I'm still game, I'd just need some money, my cable modem is all packed)
 
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