The Founding Fathers and The Christian Nation

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." - John Adams

"Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the Christian Religion. It is free from all those invented and torturing articles that shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which the Christian religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there it rests."--Thomas Paine, _Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christian_Religion_

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." --Thomas Jefferson, _Six_Historic_Americans_ by John E. Remsberg

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ." -- Thomas Jefferson

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt in 1813, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 14:21

"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420

Dude, I didn't read your post.

I'm getting ready for tomorrow's Billy Graham Crusade!!!

What's your point exactly?

Private thoughts and letters from the founding fathers have absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution or the separation of Church and State debate.

The Constitution prevents the federal government from interfering with the State's religious practices (or lack thereof.) There's nothing in the Constitution regarding the separation of church and state... the phrase doesn't appear once.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Click to expand...

Private correspondence between federal big wigs holds no water in that debate... it's just not relevant.

Regardless of the new age BS interperative spin many try to lay on the Bill of Rights it is fairly cut and dried.

By the way Jethrek eat my asshole.

Stinky Dinkins said:

What's your point exactly?

Private thoughts and letters from the founding fathers have absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution or the separation of Church and State debate.

The Constitution prevents the federal government from interfering with the State's religious practices (or lack thereof.) There's nothing in the Constitution regarding the separation of church and state... the phrase doesn't appear once.



Private correspondence between federal big wigs holds no water in that debate... it's just not relevant.

Regardless of the new age BS interperative spin many try to lay on the Bill of Rights it is fairly cut and dried.

Click to expand...

It holds relevance in the douchebag fundamentalist claims that the founding fathers intended this to be a Christian Nation. Note the phrase I put in the title of this post?

Hell, I posted about the tip of the iceberg.

The phrase "seperation of church and state" WAS founded by a founding father (Thomas Jefferson), but he had not phrased that when the constitution was written. Pointing out the phrase that desrcribes Jefferson's (and other founding father's) intended actions is totally worthless.

Seeing as you missed my point AND debated a non-point that hadn't been made, I think you can do us both a favor and go back to your usual spamming away funny posts.

Stinky Dinkins said:

By the way Jethrek eat my asshole.

Click to expand...

Location: I need my password

jethrek said:

It holds relevance in the douchebag fundamentalist claims that the founding fathers intended this to be a Christian Nation. Note the phrase I put in the title of this post?

Hell, I posted about the tip of the iceberg.

The phrase "seperation of church and state" WAS founded by a founding father (Thomas Jefferson), but he had not phrased that when the constitution was written. Pointing out the phrase that desrcribes Jefferson's (and other founding father's) intended actions is totally worthless.

Seeing as you missed my point AND debated a non-point that hadn't been made, I think you can do us both a favor and go back to your usual spamming away funny posts.

Click to expand...

I haven't seen people say the founders wanted to make this a Christian Nation.

I think you're just upset because enough people support or don't care about the "moral" stands taken by the Administration to force them to change.

jethrek said:

Seeing as you missed my point AND debated a non-point that hadn't been made, I think you can do us both a favor and go back to your usual spamming away funny posts.

Click to expand...

You and your points.

JHendrix said:

I haven't seen people say the founders wanted to make this a Christian Nation.

Click to expand...

I have personally heard many Christians say the founding fathers were Christian and intended a Christian nation. Either way the insight into the subject is certainly astounding- you'd never hear a recent President put out the level of anti-Christian-establishmentism Thomas Jefferson was more than willing to put forth.

Furthermore an overview of many things the Founding Fathers said suggests they'd find "amendments to protect sancity" a horrific thing indeed.

jethrek said:

Furthermore an overview of many things the Founding Fathers said suggests they'd find "amendments to protect sancity" a horrific thing indeed.

Click to expand...

Who gives a flying shit what the founding fathers thought or said?

Everything you need is right there in the Constitution. Just because Jefferson spent his free time using his tongue to pick the corn from Sally's asshole and writing to Franklin about it doesn't mean it's relevant.

jethrek said:

Furthermore an overview of many things the Founding Fathers said suggests they'd find "amendments to protect sancity" a horrific thing indeed.

Click to expand...

If San City wants protection maybe they should build a moat.

That's right butterfingers, I'm all over your typos.

Mind posting some more, Jethrek? I'm interested.

dragonwillow said:

Mind posting some more, Jethrek? I'm interested.

Click to expand...

That is easily the most flamboyantly homosexual internet pick-up line I've ever come across.

Jethrek are you so sure you're right on this. I mean YES, not every founding member of the USA was a Christian, this is true but are you willing to study the findings of both sides or just an Anti-Christian Pro One World Order agenda? I know full well what you're talking about on the issue with Thomas Jefferson, though it's strange you brought up this topic. Tonight's broadcast by D. James Kennedy (yes Christian radio) is covering this very issue tonight @ 10:30 Central Time if you'd care to tune in. Down here in SATX it's AM 1100, I don't know what part of the country you're in but possibly you might want to take a look at this website... http://www.coralridge.org/ which has a lot of things covered concerning all of the religious/political nature. I'm always interested in hearing about these topics from both ends because it doesn't deter what my faith ultimately is (and it's just that faith)... so it's not like we're arguing whether or not the Christian faith is right and everyone else is wrong, but rather what's what as recorded history has it.

One could argue that the fundementalist Christians are trying to spin things to serve their interests social-politically... but then so does all of the Non Christian faiths in their own rights, along with the bleeding hearts (some even on the right mind you) who want to see the eradication of the U.S. Constitution as it stands now in favor of subordinating it to the U.N., so that everyone is on an equal footing globally. That within itself negates what the founding fathers set up, be them Christians, Deists or whatever. I'm personally not going to argue with you to believe what I believe, but you should at least have two sides of the story. A lot of ppl cry "Conspiracy Theory" to the ppl always going on about how the UN wants to disarm the whole world (and that can't happen until America falls in line) but in reality they have been claiming this since they were the League of Nations. With the way things are heading, we might very well have a full scale war on our hands that would be much worse than the Civil War this time around if under handed measures are continued to be taken, passing this law and that through legal loop holes. Ppl tend to forget that without the 2nd the 1st don't mean shit... and YES this has everything to do with the subject at hand.

MERCENARY X99

Stinky Dinkins said:

That is easily the most flamboyantly homosexual internet pick-up line I've ever come across.

Click to expand...

Haha

We just need a new administration.

It just bothers me when people are attacking americans. A good chunk of us didn't vote for Bush to begin with and I can see why some did, because we need to finish this Iraq mess. You can't take Iraq and force democracy on those people, honestly, thats totally against the meaning of democracy in the first place.

I don't actually blame Chirac or anyone else for deciding not to ally with us, if I was any other country, its only common sense not to, its also in the best interest to keep the fuck away. No country just decides to liberate anything, its just propaganda morons are spoon fed to believe. Plus this admin had us under fear control, which will rule all. Its a closet dictatorship. If you can keep people under any simple fear, you can take control from there.

It all comes back to the dollar and really is a digrace to what our founding fathers wanted. I wish Bush would be indicted on these war crimes. No WMD's, nobody is really liberated, its gonna be decades of chaos before shit really shows drastic improvement. Its amazing we never hear reports on the news about this to, people forget very quickly. (I think Hal Fishmen nailed it with his one report, I give him credit for really speaking out.)

The liberation was just a scapegoat/excuse to pull other tactics while having this as a side venture for americans to look at and say 'good for us'.

Bush is not a educated or qualified man for this job, I say to this day that Kerry would have probably been better for it. Those three debates were comical to be honest, Bush jumping out of his seat with no professionalism. This is the guy running our country. Its really unbelievable.

So, Dinkins is back?

Well, there's too much to add for one post, but Jefferson was actually heavily attacked by some Christian sects (largely the ones in power) for his opposition to any governmentally institutionalized aspect of Christianity, and Thomas Paine took a major fall for his views on Christianity.

In Jefferson's case, one can dig up quotes all night. Paine is definitely Deist and Jefferson and Franklin also seemed to ascribe more to its principles than anything you'll hear from a modern politician. Still, while I won't flood quotes all night here's a few more.

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

"I know it will give great offense to the clergy, but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace no forgiveness from them."--Thomas Jefferson to Levi Lincoln, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 10:305

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." --Thomas Jefferson, _Six_Historic_Americans_ by John E. Remsberg

"As priestcraft was always the enemy of knowledge, because priestcraft supports itself by keeping people in delusion and ignorance, it was consistent with its policy to make the acquisition of knowledge a real sin."--Thomas Paine, _Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christian_Religion_

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." -- Thomas Paine

"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."--Thomas Paine, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, James A. Haught

"As the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquillity of Messelmen, --and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever interupt the harmony existing betweenthe two countries"--Treaty of Tripoli in 1797, Article XI, written by Joel Barlow (USA diplomat) and Hassan Bashaw (of Algers), late during George Washington's second term and later ratified by President John Adams. Original and copies preserved in the national Archives in Washington, DC. under Treaty series no.358. Official Senate treaty found in the American State Papers, Foreign Relations, II p. 18-19. "Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America" vol.2, edited by Hunter Miller, US. Government printing office, 1931, p.349-385. Article XI was passed unanimously by the US senate with no debate or dissention.

It's widely known that the founding fathers were mostly deists, not Christians. Many people get confused and think they're the same thing. Many people who have something to gain also purposely propagate the confusion.

Darklighterx said:

So, Dinkins is back?

Click to expand...

Only for a few minutes.

Props for a very interesting thread, jethrek.

I totally agree with all your points, but I would also like to note that the late Jefferson not only rejected religion, but also science, in favor of his ever present pastoral ideal of the "noble savage".

And if science produces no better fruits than tyranny, murder, rapine and destitution of national morality, I would rather wish our country to be ignorant, honest and estimable, as our neighboring savages are. But whither is senile garrulity leading me? Into politics, of which I have taken final leave.

Click to expand...

On a sidenote, I have always loved that "whither..." sentence, since I first read Jefferson's letters some 4 years ago, while doing an American Studies course. Whenever I want to bring up the term "whither" and its use in my lessons (I'm a teacher), I always quote Jefferson, heh.

Lord Wolfgang Krauser said:

Bush is not a educated or qualified man for this job, I say to this day that Kerry would have probably been better for it. Those three debates were comical to be honest, Bush jumping out of his seat with no professionalism. This is the guy running our country. Its really unbelievable.

Click to expand...

100 percent agree, what good is the electoral process if

a) all 2 of the canidates are unfit

b) an electoral college along with faulty computers and a secret society of billionaires can change the vote anyway.


The instant government and religion are mixed a terrible rift happens. It's like creating social divides. Seperation of church and state not only makes sense, but it works.

Although if everyone could freely walk around the street screaming "I'm gay" "I'm a satanist" and "Praise Alllah" without creating any tension then we couldn't argue about anything anymore.

What is the point of this thread?

Magnaflux said:

What is the point of this thread?

Click to expand...

BananaFishBOnesss...

Jethrek more quotes please!!