Kraut Buster New NGDEV - 2015

oliverclaude

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??? Please elaborate.

If you can allow yourself to push the deadline forward infinitely, you have more time to deliver better results. That's what Nazca couldn't afford to do. If you further use faster, more efficient, current developing technology along with the dropping prices for increasingly powerful microchips, it's only understandable how the 60fps come to fruition. That's 20 years after Metal Slug was released.

And that's how they pull it off. It has nothing to do with skill, just more time and more efficient tools Nazca didn't have back then -- and let's not forget that they also didn't have a Metal Slug to rip off from, which also saves time. If NG:DEV had to develop a game like Metal Slug from scratch within the time frame Nazca had and with only those means available back then, a.D. '96, then I'm afraid Kraut Buster would be one level long including the fluidity of 12.5fps and being it a five or a fifty-five programmer team in Hanover wouldn't make a difference.
 

RAZO

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If you can allow yourself to push the deadline forward infinitely, you have more time to deliver better results. That's what Nazca couldn't afford to do. If you further use faster, more efficient, current developing technology along with the dropping prices for increasingly powerful microchips, it's only understandable how the 60fps come to fruition. That's 20 years after Metal Slug was released.

And that's how they pull it off. It has nothing to do with skill, just more time and more efficient tools Nazca didn't have back then -- and let's not forget that they also didn't have a Metal Slug to rip off from, which also saves time. If NG:DEV had to develop a game like Metal Slug from scratch within the time frame Nazca had and with only those means available back then, a.D. '96, then I'm afraid Kraut Buster would be one level long including the fluidity of 12.5fps and being it a five or a fifty-five programmer team in Hanover wouldn't make a difference.

Nailed it. If the same developers back then had the technology of today and still making games for the Neo, I could only imagine how creative and good the games would be. I'm still till this day impressed with the original games they developed in the 90's.

Just like OC said. This game has been in development for like 3 years and it looks like a MS rip off. Not saying it's not going to be a great game and I'm not knocking on NGdev but I'm not all that impressed either.
 

Razoola

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Looking at NeoGeo games in general the game engines used of the past were not optimised to handle many sprites on screen, lots of collision detection etc. They were more aligned with handling larger sprites with lots of internal attributes (many unused). As games have changed, so did the engines, it is not difficult to handle lots of smaller sprites with lots of collisions and animations on the NeoGeo if your a compntant programmer. You just lose some attributes in the thngs you can do with those sprites in the process if your dealing with a general all porpose game engine.

All in all, its the little things that make the big differences, For example on NeoGeo, the way background sprites stripes are used in background scrolling are updated allowing backgrounds to move onto the screen. Do you update the entire sprite strip when its needed or update a few of those tiles within the strip per frame only. Older NeoGeo games for example made up backgrounds by treating them as giant sprites within the same sprite engine that deals with smaller character sprites. That is a very unoptimised way to do things.

It does not just come down to programming either, there is lots related to the way you store data in ROM. You can do it in ways where it can be loaded into VRAM very quickly. Generally in the past storage space would be a big factor, in a way its just not relevant today. So games of the ninties did not always store data in ROM in the most efficiant way, just for the aim to reduce ROMs needed.
 
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Morden

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It's also important to remember what 60 fps means when applied to a 2D game. In a 3D game, while moving, for example, you'd get 60 different images per second. 2D game sprites have a limited number of animation frames, and these ton't get cycled through at that speed. Same goes for any other background element with any kind of animation. This can only be applied to movement of the objects or things like shadows in fighting games, being solid, but alternating between characters every other frame, to give the appearance of 50% opacity.
 

neomeo

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I am looking forward to the game. It's exciting when people the Neo Geo community alive.
 

gray117

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It's also important to remember what 60 fps means when applied to a 2D game. In a 3D game, while moving, for example, you'd get 60 different images per second. 2D game sprites have a limited number of animation frames, and these ton't get cycled through at that speed. Same goes for any other background element with any kind of animation. This can only be applied to movement of the objects or things like shadows in fighting games, being solid, but alternating between characters every other frame, to give the appearance of 50% opacity.

... you what? ....

if you move a 2d asset along a vector across the screen at 60 fps (like a bullet or a grenade) you get 60 fps of interpolated movement. If you move a 3d cube across a screen at 60 fps you get 60fps of interpolated movement.

If you've animated a 2d asset like a character @ 30 fps you'll get a playback of those 30 frames across the 60 frames your game is rendering at. Depending on the system being used if you animated say a 3d character at 30 fps you'll either get 30fps across the 60 frames your game is rendering at, or - if your animation system supports it (and this is probably under a lod system for foreground elements if so) 30 frames of animation interpolated into 60 and rendered across the 60 frames your game is running at.

The actual [hopefully if sensibly implemented] importance of your game running 60 fps is that your game loop is running at 60 fps and the user controls are getting responded to 60 times a second generating a nice feeling instant response to player input.

Aside from visual 'smoothness' this (potential for - since there are things that can interfere) snappiness, and precision of control response is what is so important to many 60 fps (and above) fans.
 
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Morden

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if you move a 2d asset along a vector across the screen at 60 fps (like a bullet or a grenade) you get 60 fps of interpolated movement. If you move a 3d cube across a screen at 60 fps you get 60fps of interpolated movement.

This is pretty much what I meant, even though I didn't put it in as many words. To quote myself:

This can only be applied to movement of the objects (...)

I've seen many people misinterpret 60 fps in 2D games as actual frames of animation applied to the sprites, asking questions "how many fps is 3rd strike compared to Garou MotW". And believe me, they meant sprite animation frames. It's a stereotypical simplification of how this works when it comes to 2D and 3D graphics. Essentially, console gamers are used to thinking "60 fps = smooth, 30 fps = not smooth".
 

BIG BEAR

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Why did NGDEV not just KICK ARSE on smaller projects? Why undertake such a project of this nature? Why create a game that will always be compared to Metal Slug? I'm not knocking NGDEV,never that as I luv what they're doing 100% but feel they have the skills to push out more types of games that are lacking in the NEO GEO library in much less time.
I'd be ecstatic over a Craps simulator identical to the Amiga version or a NEO GEO version of PANG in the spirit of NEO Mr.DO!
BB
 

kuze

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Why did NGDEV not just KICK ARSE on smaller projects?

I'm guessing they are huge Metal Slug fans and want it to be their 'magnum opus'.

Gunlord is a pretty great game, so I could see this turning out awesome as well especially given the time invested in it.

On the other hand there are five actual MS games (or six depending on how you count.... 2>X) for the platform, so it would have been nice to see another tate shmup from them.

Also, what's up w/ the supposed JAMMA hardware they were teasing (supposedly why they haven't done a Neo XYX re-release for MVS)?
 

LoneSage

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I'm curious about the personal lives of these guys, i.e. what's their daytime job.
 

LoneSage

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If it takes them 3-4 years to make a single game as their daytime job then they're pretty shit at it.
 

heihachi

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If it takes them 3-4 years to make a single game as their daytime job then they're pretty shit at it.

Yeah, there’s no way this is a day job. Even at $500 per unit, theres no way they sell enough to support a single person for a year let alone an entire team for 3-4 years. That said, I think the game looks cool and would consider buying if more aes preorders open up.
 

powerflower

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Also, what's up w/ the supposed JAMMA hardware they were teasing (supposedly why they haven't done a Neo XYX re-release for MVS)?

Say what??

@oliverclaude

Good points you made but as long as you didn't give them money beforehand they can do whatever they want. Yes it is a difference the tools they have today BUT it is a difference too when you have just a couple of folks or 55 guys employed by SNK. Mid 90s 3D was the rage and 2D old common stuff already.

At the end of the day you have to draw 2D stuff which no tool can help you ;)

Why did NGDEV not just KICK ARSE on smaller projects? Why undertake such a project of this nature? Why create a game that will always be compared to Metal Slug? I'm not knocking NGDEV,never that as I luv what they're doing 100% but feel they have the skills to push out more types of games that are lacking in the NEO GEO library in much less time.
I'd be ecstatic over a Craps simulator identical to the Amiga version or a NEO GEO version of PANG in the spirit of NEO Mr.DO!
BB

Why do YOU just create a new Neo Kick Ass Title ;) And NO we dont need another Do or Amiga crap on Neo, jeebus...

This is pretty much what I meant, even though I didn't put it in as many words. To quote myself:



I've seen many people misinterpret 60 fps in 2D games as actual frames of animation applied to the sprites, asking questions "how many fps is 3rd strike compared to Garou MotW". And believe me, they meant sprite animation frames. It's a stereotypical simplification of how this works when it comes to 2D and 3D graphics. Essentially, console gamers are used to thinking "60 fps = smooth, 30 fps = not smooth".

I have never heard 2D folks talking 60fps animations on 2D stuff, never. It's all about moving stuff on screen at 60fps. Btw. 30fps=33ms Input-Lag, 60 means 16,xx ms lag and NO Eye-Cancer ;)

The guys talking about Garou 60fps animations clearly have no clue what they are talking 'bout. They don't count obviously.
 
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Razoola

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Back in the day when I was writing games the aim was to get everything the game needed to do in one frame, it was considered bad if you could not do this for gfx at minimum. Some things can be split over two frames with no visible effect (like bullet detection) but as a whole speed was key. Programmers did not only need the ability to write games, it was just as important to be able to do things in a way that saved CPU cycles. As CPU's got faster the art of programming this way became lost. In many ways this programming style could be considered bad in todays world.

I guess some of you look at the very first demo video they did and wonder how come the game is still not released given it looked playable way back then. If I had to personally wager a guess at why this game is not yet released (besides music or graphics) it would be because NG:DEV are working out the smaller details like making sure it never drops a single frame and to also make sure sprite clipping does not happen or is at a minimum.
 
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oliverclaude

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Good points you made but as long as you didn't give them money beforehand they can do whatever they want.

And we can comment on their output however we want. True. That's one of the reasons they don't come here often, if at all, hiding behind the usual no-time excuses.

Yes it is a difference the tools they have today BUT it is a difference too when you have just a couple of folks or 55 guys employed by SNK.

And I made the point, that there isn't. A five member team employed by SNK could do as much as, and much more, than a 55 member team employed by the Hanoverian Lowland DEVs, because...

At the end of the day you have to draw 2D stuff which no tool can help you ;)

...and that's where they suck, the moment they can't rely on their machines. To be inventive and creative, not only technically. You can't "learn" that, you have to be a skilled observer, know a bit about yourself, have an equally talented milieu around you.


Edit: There's nothing profoundly wrong with their releases. And that's about all you can say about them, without drifting into pejorative. Now that's something, but that's not, and never will be, Nazca -- and the harder they'll try, the harder they'll fall.
 
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powerflower

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So how about your Neo kick ass homebrew title going. Waiting for ages for YOU to release that title. Gave you all my money... ;)

They do NOT owe you shit. Fact.
 
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oliverclaude

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So how about your Neo kick ass homebrew title going. Waiting for ages for YOU to release that title. Gave you all my money... ;)

They do NOT owe you shit. Fact.

I support & privately promote NG:DEV games from Last Hope onwards. The former through buying their every AES release, the latter through showing/presenting them to friends anytime the occasion occurs. Still it hardly needs mentioning, that they, of course, don't owe me anything. It is a fact, yes, one that is not at issue here, nor is it one that anybody would dispute.

I am merely discussing and criticizing their releases from the perspective of a client, a consumer and a player. But if you feel that these perspectives are "shit", and that the right to criticize and discuss any product is only valid, if the critic and user is at the same time a developer and contriver of that particular product -- then please, first show us the games you developed, before suggesting that...

...Nazca suck at programming?

See, this shut-the-fuck-up-until-you-do-it-yourself-better argument is as old, as it is halfwitted. And still, you are not the first, certainly not the last, to off-handedly jump on that timeless, old as dirt donkey.
 
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