Why is Kizuna Encounter (European version) so rare?

DevilRedeemed

teh
20 Year Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2002
Posts
13,554
Euro Kizuna was known to exist within a few years of release, back when even ultra rare English games like U11, Slug 1, NTM and several others didn't sell for more than $2k. Shawn stated he paid ~$500 for his Euro Kizuna. Most others that were 'verified' by Shawn, were from original buyers direct from the distributor.

The game got released in 1996. If you had $300 to spend on a game, you had many better options like KOF96 or Sam Sho 4.

While I like the conspiracy theory that this was an elaborate fake 15 years before the AF3 debacle, let's just go with Occam's razor here.

The European SNK distributor Maro in Germany made a small release, few sold, then the remaining stock was returned to sell in Japan.

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?2550-Kizuna-Encounter-English/

Now that prices are in the stratosphere, faking AF3 made sense. Faking Kizuna would make sense now, but the scrutiny would be much higher. Faking it back in the day would have been easier to conceal, but the payoff was not worthwhile.

/Thread slaughtered
 

SuperGun

Proto Hunter
20 Year Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2001
Posts
908
...Road trip to Memphis...

Eventually, someday, yes.
After all, Shawn is indeed one of the few who have had this game in their hands.
But Mark lives much closer to me.

Either way, the Kizuna legend lives on!
 

roker

DOOM
20 Year Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2003
Posts
18,871
/Thread slaughtered

Dunno man, looking over that thread proved nothing. It even seemed to end on a sour note. Maybe the bootlegger made a small batch and sold them in Europe. I'm still not convinced.
 

wyo

King of Spammers
10 Year Member
Joined
May 22, 2013
Posts
10,114
Euro Kizuna was known to exist within a few years of release, back when even ultra rare English games like U11, Slug 1, NTM and several others didn't sell for more than $2k. Shawn stated he paid ~$500 for his Euro Kizuna. Most others that were 'verified' by Shawn, were from original buyers direct from the distributor.

The game got released in 1996. If you had $300 to spend on a game, you had many better options like KOF96 or Sam Sho 4.

While I like the conspiracy theory that this was an elaborate fake 15 years before the AF3 debacle, let's just go with Occam's razor here.

The European SNK distributor Maro in Germany made a small release, few sold, then the remaining stock was returned to sell in Japan.

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?2550-Kizuna-Encounter-English/

Now that prices are in the stratosphere, faking AF3 made sense. Faking Kizuna would make sense now, but the scrutiny would be much higher. Faking it back in the day would have been easier to conceal, but the payoff was not worthwhile.

Exactly. Stop with the Alex Jones shit.
 

oliverclaude

General Morden's Aide
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Posts
7,688
Dunno man, looking over that thread proved nothing. It even seemed to end on a sour note. Maybe the bootlegger made a small batch and sold them in Europe. I'm still not convinced.

- That's specious reasoning, roke.

Thank you, Clod.

- By your "I haven't seen a real copy, then it's all boot" logic, I could claim your avatar keeps xorthen away.

Oh, how does it work?

- It doesn't work.

Uh-huh.

- It's just a stupid avatar.

Uh-huh.

- But I don't see any xorthen around here, do you?

Clod, I'm gonna patent-hold my avatar.

- Uh-huh
 

Heinz

Parteizeit
15 Year Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Posts
22,335
This thread is exactly why the stupid game is valued as high as it is.
 

Tempest

Ninja Combat Warrior
15 Year Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2003
Posts
547
I was asking an honest question, I didn't think it would devolve into this.

Still, I appreciate the people who took time to post real answers, they were all interesting. I think we've come as close to an answer as we're going to get unless some new info comes to light.
 
Last edited:

lithy

Most Prominent Member of Chat
20 Year Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2002
Posts
22,031
Has anyone attempted to contact someone from Maro to confirm this? That'd be some crazy investigative journalism. I'll remain a skeptic until we get confirmation. I'd love to be wrong. I have no qualms about that, but I don't think I'll believe it's official until a rep or producer from the source comes out to talk about it.

I don't think you're misguided in your skepticism, but remember that your claim has no supporting evidence except that 'it must be fake because there are so few'. The 1969 Corvette sold nearly 40,000 cars. There are two 1969 ZL1 Corvettes that were ordered from the factory and that was an option that was advertised by GM, a national car brand arguably at or near their peak for market domination. The ZL1 was expensive, it basically doubled the base price of a Corvette. The cost for a single game on an already extremely niche system was a pretty high asking price over 20 years ago. With hindsight of later value, more people would have bought a ZL1 and a Euro Kizuna, of course in doing that, the market price would not be nearly what it is today.

Going backwards, I saw the price of 600DM floated in that old thread. Average conversion rate was about 1.50DM=1USD in 1996. That would be 400USD in 1996 dollars, or over 600USD today. This game wasn't just a little expensive. It was a house payment for an average earner.

Also doubtful that any interview with Maro would be all that helpful today. 20 years have passed and it wasn't a particularly notable release at the time so wouldn't have generated much more attention than any other slow seller.

Of course, I could be wrong but I just find the simple explanation here to be pretty logical and the reinforcement of the details by the handful of people that have come forward with copies only adds to my belief.
 

snes_collector

NAM-75 Vet
10 Year Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2012
Posts
1,010
I’d like to think there is a palette of these in a warehouse soemwhere. Stranger things have happened before. I think they just made a super low run of them like others said, because how many people were going to choose this game with all the other options

What is almost stranger to me is why didn’t they print more copies of Metal Slug considering how popular it was. Was it so popular among arcade owners they used everything for MVS copies? If so why didn’t they make more for home cart owners?
 

DevilRedeemed

teh
20 Year Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2002
Posts
13,554
Dunno man, looking over that thread proved nothing. It even seemed to end on a sour note. Maybe the bootlegger made a small batch and sold them in Europe. I'm still not convinced.

The cost of making these I think would not have payed dividends
A bootlegger would have spent a ton of time and money painstakingly creating something like this, his skills world class, for next to no return? I don't think so Rokey
 

Tempest

Ninja Combat Warrior
15 Year Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2003
Posts
547
Going backwards, I saw the price of 600DM floated in that old thread. Average conversion rate was about 1.50DM=1USD in 1996. That would be 400USD in 1996 dollars, or over 600USD today. This game wasn't just a little expensive. It was a house payment for an average earner.
Man that is pricey for such an average (at best) game. You're right in that I doubt many people would pony up that kind of dough for it unless they were huge fans and those would be few and far between. Of course there are lots of below average Neo Geo games that are pretty common so they must have sold in decent numbers regardless.


What is almost stranger to me is why didn’t they print more copies of Metal Slug considering how popular it was. Was it so popular among arcade owners they used everything for MVS copies? If so why didn’t they make more for home cart owners?

Yeah I had the same question. I always assumed it was because the popularity of the game caught them off guard (Neo Geo was pretty much all fighters at that point) so the initial run was small. As to why they didn't do a second run, I think your theory of putting all available parts towards the MVS version probably is the correct answer. I swear there was a time when just about every place that had a Neo Geo cab had Metal Slug in it.

The cost of making these I think would not have payed dividends
A bootlegger would have spent a ton of time and money painstakingly creating something like this, his skills world class, for next to no return? I don't think so Rokey

Not to mention making a quality bootleg back then would have been infinity more difficult than it is now. The technology needed was really expensive at the time.
 
Last edited:

GohanX

Horrible Goose
20 Year Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2001
Posts
12,490
What is almost stranger to me is why didn’t they print more copies of Metal Slug considering how popular it was. Was it so popular among arcade owners they used everything for MVS copies? If so why didn’t they make more for home cart owners?

At the time SNK believed that the home market would transition to the Neo CD system instead of the cartridge system. That's why there are a few games from that time period that either don't have home versions at all or have a very limited release. Also, SNK had no idea then that Metal Slug would end up one of the best and most sought after games ever on the system.
 

snes_collector

NAM-75 Vet
10 Year Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2012
Posts
1,010
Ah, I did not consider that- makes perfect sense now. Thanks Gohan. Did the game initially start off not very popular in the Neo geo community?
 
Last edited:

Tempest

Ninja Combat Warrior
15 Year Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2003
Posts
547
At the time SNK believed that the home market would transition to the Neo CD system instead of the cartridge system.

I never considered that either. I forgot how much faith they put in the CD (I swear I never saw one in stores near me, even ones that carried Neo Geo stuff). Too bad they couldn't do anything about those load times or they might have been onto something.


Did the game initially start off not very popular in the Neo geo community?

It was always popular from what I remember. But I don't think Nazca or SNK expected to be such a huge hit when they were developing it as the market for those kind of games was dying and going all fighters.
 
Last edited:

wyo

King of Spammers
10 Year Member
Joined
May 22, 2013
Posts
10,114
Im sure there were other factors involved but my theory is it was far more profitable for SNK to churn out Metal Slug MVS than AES since it was a big hit in arcades and the MVS version sold for a higher price and was cheaper to produce.
 

Gamemaster

,
20 Year Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2000
Posts
421
Actually i remember quite well that Maro ( German Store back then ) did offer me a Kizuna, but i did not want it.
I actually thought well that Savage Reign i have on CD was not really great, so i pass up the cart and wait for a CD release.
Keep in mind in Germany we had not great arcades, where you could go and test new SNK titels and videogame magazines often did not even test em or very late.

Actually i was also buying games for my NTSC N64, so i had to choose where my money did go.

Why its so rare ? I dont know, i can say that the Maro store often only had a few copys of Neo-Geo games later. While the main store was in Stuttgard there where also a few franchise partners.
For that reason i got my Shock Trooper 2 cart not from the Maro Store in Stuttgard ( because they didnt had it/ had it anymore ) and i had to buy it from a partner shop.

If you ask me because Savage Reign was not great a lot ppl didnt buy Kizuna on cart. Could also be that Maro only had a few copys for sale, mostly for loyal Neo-Geo customers, because usually not many ppl in Germany could afford a Neo-Geo and its games or wanted to spend that much money.

I dont know where Maro got the games, i guess from SNK in the UK or/and somewhere else but i can say all games i bought from them where legit. Aside from that fake games wherent a thing back then.
Makes also no sense to do so at that time.

BTW afaik Maro never got Ultimate 11, i was asking them about it and they also didnt offer me one later.
 

DevilRedeemed

teh
20 Year Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2002
Posts
13,554
Some of these games had limited releases in the AES market because SNK was putting them out symbolically, as place holders, not with mind to make money but rather that the spirit of things be maintained.
Stands to reason they became bankrupt at the turn of the century (too many missteps with ngcd, the pocket and ng64 to boot)
 

Tempest

Ninja Combat Warrior
15 Year Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2003
Posts
547
Actually i remember quite well that Maro ( German Store back then ) did offer me a Kizuna, but i did not want it.

Well there you go. I think this debunks the 'It's a fake' theory.

I wonder if anyone could order it from SNK directly back then? Did they have a mail order operation or did you have to go through retail stores?
 
Last edited:

Evan

Fio's Quartermaster
Joined
May 31, 2016
Posts
486
I can believe that SNK would only produce a small amount of games, as there are many SNK games with tiny production runs.
 

Tempest

Ninja Combat Warrior
15 Year Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2003
Posts
547
I can believe that SNK would only produce a small amount of games, as there are many SNK games with tiny production runs.

Is there a list of AES/MVS production numbers somewhere? That would be interesting to see.
 

Gamemaster

,
20 Year Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2000
Posts
421
Well there you go. I think this debunks the 'It's a fake' theory.

I wonder if anyone could order it from SNK directly back then? Did they have a mail order operation or did you have to go through retail stores?

From SNK Europe /UK ? I dont know. I think they did only sell to resellers.
At that time i had no credit card and no clue how to order from outside germany beside telefone.
Usually i bought games from german videogame stores locally or let em send them to me.
I think i did not even had internet.

I think the last years Maro was the only store that did sell Neo-Geo carts in Germany, i stopped buying them in 2000 because Metal Slug 3 and King of Fighters where 1000 DM each and that was a lot money.
I had a good contact with Maro and got serveral flyers, catalogs with listed games for the year and other stuff free. They usually did call me when they had a new Neo-Geo game in stock.
 
Top