MVS serials removed - why?

ericb · Jan 23, 2005

Something I've always wondered about:

I often see MVS carts that have the serials either scratched or colored out on the carts... why is that? I can't see any real benefit for an arcade operator, home user, or reseller (aside for when selling kits, to create the illusion that the entire kit was intact the entire time), so if anyone can provide some insight, it would be greatly appreciated.

twalden · Jan 23, 2005

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/search.php?

galfordo · Jan 23, 2005

SNK didn't like for their MVS carts to be sold on the aftermarket, and used their carts' serial numbers to track them back to the original owner. To avoid being penalized by SNK, operators would just scratch off the serials.

I guess they had no idea this would make neurotic bastards like me cry themselves to sleep at night ... :crying:

zhulien · Jan 23, 2005

galfordo said:
SNK didn't like for their MVS carts to be sold on the aftermarket, and used their carts' serial numbers to track them back to the original owner. To avoid being penalized by SNK, operators would just scratch off the serials.

I guess they had no idea this would make neurotic bastards like me cry themselves to sleep at night ...

That sound a bit harsh on the part of SNK, were they really that horrible a company?

Lashujin · Jan 23, 2005

It is kind of assanine, but I don't mind when I get a cart with no serials.

I wonder how long they did this for. I would assume towards the end they weren't too concerened about it, but I have a Captain Tomaday cart with no serials and I believe that's 99. Just curious.

ericb · Jan 23, 2005

galfordo said:
SNK didn't like for their MVS carts to be sold on the aftermarket, and used their carts' serial numbers to track them back to the original owner. To avoid being penalized by SNK, operators would just scratch off the serials.

I guess they had no idea this would make neurotic bastards like me cry themselves to sleep at night ...

Thanks galfordo, that's exactly what I needed to know. I guess that makes sense... but it's hard for me to think about a company _actually_ investing the time and money to search down those who re-sold MVS carts. Did SNK have this kinda money to waste? We all know the answer to that is a resounding 'no'. But, I guess, stranger things have happened...

Thanks for the info.

SuperGun · Jan 23, 2005

Understanding MVS Cart Serial Numbers

Gentlemen,

The problem is that most of the MVS collectors around here (and anywhere else for that matter) fail to realize that MVS cartridges were NEVER intended to be "collectible" items, kept complete and in mint condition. Yes there is partial truth to the fact that serial numbers allow for a corporation to keep tabs on how many items they have manufactured as well as where those items went in regards to distribution and operation. But the truth is that most other arcade boards from other manufacturers also had serial numbers attached. The only difference is that they used AMAA stickers which were slapped on the boards.

The biggest "hits" for the NEOGEO (speaking PURELY from an operators revenues standpoint) were the first generation fighting games. Fatal Fury, World Heroes, Art of Fighting, and Samurai Shodown as well as their first sequels. Samurai Shodown changed EVERYTHING. By the time the next two (and pretty much LAST) mega-hits came along, Bust-A-Move, and Metal Slug, bootlegging took off and it was big money for the bootleggers and big savings for the operators who used them on location. The landmark titles which raked in thousands of quarters fell victim to massive out of control bootlegging. While professional bootleggers overseas designed and built bootleg boardsets in assembly lines MOST bootlegging that was done within the United States was done so with the familiar "sac cart method" which we are all familiar with today.

As a result, several US distributors (which I will omit there names out of respect for privacy) were heavy into "cart sacing / cart swapping" and they would scratch off the serials from any carts that they sold for multiple reasons. Among them to prevent a tracking of what carts they sold and how many. Also there was an MVS cartridge exchange program in place during the early nineties. Capcom also did this with there CPS-2 A-B boardset system. Operators would trade-in their old mvs carts to the distributors for $50 - $100 credit towards a new cart release. The distributors would then do their own swapping with their own unsold inventories and send back to SNK the least desirable carts!

So in the MVS world, YES, there is some truth to the theory of rare carts. Mostly because the non-earners like say savage reign or galaxy fight were sacced to make metal slugs or samurai 2's. But never forget that in general these "carts" are no different then other arcade boards in the sense that there were thousands built and sold so they are far from rare!

Anyhow, damaged or missing serial numbers is something we will be forced to deal with forever. Yes, it looks ugly, yes it is annoying, but in the end these things were never intended to be trophies on a shelf. MVS carts are NOT the same thing as HOME carts! They were meant to be plugged into a circuit board inside a cabinet, and not stored in a brown box or kept on a shelf.

Billy Pitt

omnedon · Jan 23, 2005

Awesome post! I was going to post something similar, but far less well informed. I collect AES, but also own a Phantom. I buy the crappiest, seediest, label ripped, serials burned off with a cigarette MVS carts I can get my hands on. I clean 'em up, with re-printed labels, and toss 'em in a shock box.

That may be a tarted up sows ear, turned into a half ass silk purse, but who cares? If I'm buying to collect, I buy AES. If I'm buying to play, I buy MVS. Eventually, my fave titles, on MVS, will hopefully be replaced by collectable AES versions.

MVS was not ever made to be collectible in the least. One look at the carts and the boxes they came in makes it self evident.

That doesn't mean I see anything wrong with MVS kit collecting. I'm sure it's great, and fun, but when you are collecting something discarded from commercial use, these are the kind of unAESthetic ( :make_fac:

) issues it will no doubt be plagued with.

The equivalent in the AES world is former rental AES carts, beat to crap and engraved with a shop name on it. :oh_no:

Thank goodness it's only a small percentage of the cart numbers.

norton9478 · Jan 23, 2005

You also have to remember that the Neo Geo was one of the first import friendly boardsets. Before that, US Ops were forbideen by law to operate forign copies. Look at the boot intro to most 80's boards "IF you are using this outside the Territory of Japan you are commiting a crime" A jp cart that played in english was unheard of.

lithy · Jan 23, 2005

I really hate some of you guys.

Its a nice argument to say that MVS carts were never meant to be collectibles hence they got their serial numbers scratched off. Before I go into that I'd just like to ask where some of you get it that AES games were sold as collectible items? You say MVS games weren't sold as collectibles? Neither were AES games, they're both games! They were both meant to get plugged in and PLAYED. 200 and later 300 dollar carts did not signify instant collectible, it was the cost to pay for arcade perfect ports.

I realize there are few people who actually buy AES carts to play nowadays, but people like (I've decided I won't just list people that's cheesy) have my respect for because they bought many of their home carts new and played them or even if they got into it later the main point is they bought them to game. I've started to notice these people are getting out of home carts since the prices are so high they don't feel like playing the games anymore.

Few items in the world are sold right off the bat as collectibles (commerorative coins, waterford crystal, I'm sure there is other stuff) If you pay attention though, you realize that this stuff, sold as collectibles rarely gains value, some commemorative coin might hold its value, while some quarter that no one thought to hold on to saw a 1000% increase in value. Just because MVS were not sold as collectibles does not mean they can't be collectibles.

Anyway I've gotten into this rant that I'm not sure how to end now so I'll just stop seemingly midthought and go on to serial numbers.

I have a hard time believing Billy that operators did conversions unless he has some proof of this it just seems far fetched. I even had a hard time believing that SNK was a cut throat operation that cracked down hard if you resold your cart. I'm more apt to believe that ops did this 'just in case' there is a number, there might be a record, its not going to hurt the value of the cart to another op, why not.

johnno15 · Jan 23, 2005

lithy said:
I really hate some of you guys.

Its a nice argument to say that MVS carts were never meant to be collectibles hence they got their serial numbers scratched off. Before I go into that I'd just like to ask where some of you get it that AES games were sold as collectible items? You say MVS games weren't sold as collectibles? Neither were AES games, they're both games! They were both meant to get plugged in and PLAYED. 200 and later 300 dollar carts did not signify instant collectible, it was the cost to pay for arcade perfect ports.

I realize there are few people who actually buy AES carts to play nowadays, but people like (I've decided I won't just list people that's cheesy) have my respect for because they bought many of their home carts new and played them or even if they got into it later the main point is they bought them to game. I've started to notice these people are getting out of home carts since the prices are so high they don't feel like playing the games anymore.

Few items in the world are sold right off the bat as collectibles (commerorative coins, waterford crystal, I'm sure there is other stuff) If you pay attention though, you realize that this stuff, sold as collectibles rarely gains value, some commemorative coin might hold its value, while some quarter that no one thought to hold on to saw a 1000% increase in value. Just because MVS were not sold as collectibles does not mean they can't be collectibles.

Anyway I've gotten into this rant that I'm not sure how to end now so I'll just stop seemingly midthought and go on to serial numbers.

I have a hard time believing Billy that operators did conversions unless he has some proof of this it just seems far fetched. I even had a hard time believing that SNK was a cut throat operation that cracked down hard if you resold your cart. I'm more apt to believe that ops did this 'just in case' there is a number, there might be a record, its not going to hurt the value of the cart to another op, why not.

Your spot on there mate ive never thought about aes like that but thats the truth no if no buts just facts great stuff. :buttrock:

SuperGun · Jan 23, 2005

anything can be collected

lithy said:
I really hate some of you guys.

They were both meant to get plugged in and PLAYED.
I have a hard time believing Billy that operators did conversions unless he has some proof of this it just seems far fetched.

Lithy,

Yes, they were both intended to be PLAYED and not neccessarily "collected". But keep in mind that home carts came in special enclosed cardboard/plastic boxes. That by DEFINITION means to be protected and displayed on a shelf. Not some paper box like nes games came in or whatever. Collecting video games is now a trend and is marketable; literally to the point that we now have two or more releases of the same game with different contents. Look at X-BOX Halo 2 for goodness sake...you can buy the normal one, and the special tin version or whatever. DVD box sets, again same shit. Hell even since the Atari 2600 days, in the game catalogs Atari advertized and sold molded plastic display cases to protoect and store your cartridges. (described as such in the ads)

Anything can be collected. Som yes, MVS carts are collected and building a complete collection of all complete MIB kits is very challenging and costly. But that was NEVER the intention of SNK. For god's sake, operators used to THROW AWAY old circuit boards once they stopped earning. Do you see laundromat operators saving and collecting there old washing machine circuit boards when they brake down or replace them? NOPE! But you know what, somewhere in the world, somebody collects those boards! But that in NO WAY means they were INTENDED to be! So again, ANYTHING can be collected, but not everything IS collected.

Please don't be "offended" by me or my comments though. I think we have met in person actually btw at the super auctions in Orlando. Do you remember? Anyhow, heck, I also "collect" MVS carts and I think they look great as well. But I just feel that it is a TOTALLY different market then HOME carts and should ALWAYS be treated as such. In short, the word "RARE" should be used far more sparingly and cautiously in the MVS cartridge "pool" then it is in the HOME cartridge pool. Do you understand my meaning? Nothing insulting, just an observation.

Lastly, with respect to your other comment, I NEVER said that the OPERATORS did the conversions. I clearly stated that the DISTRIBUTORS did them. It is possible that some smart operators did, but I know for a FACT that several distributors did. Do I have "PROOF", yes I do. But as I said, I don't want to embarass any of them who may be here or have ties to someone here primarily because a few of them are still in business today!

norton9478 · Jan 23, 2005

SuperGun Lastly said:
By conversion...

Do you mean Home cart to MVS conversion?

Or do you mean an MVS Board with New/flash EPROMS?

Or both?
Just wondering

lithy · Jan 23, 2005

SuperGun said:
Lithy,

Yes, they were both intended to be PLAYED and not neccessarily "collected". But keep in mind that home carts came in special enclosed cardboard/plastic boxes. That by DEFINITION means to be protected and displayed on a shelf. Not some paper box like nes games came in or whatever. Collecting video games is now a trend and is marketable; literally to the point that we now have two or more releases of the same game with different contents. Look at X-BOX Halo 2 for goodness sake...you can buy the normal one, and the special tin version or whatever. DVD box sets, again same shit. Hell even since the Atari 2600 days, in the game catalogs Atari advertized and sold molded plastic display cases to protoect and store your cartridges. (described as such in the ads)

Anything can be collected. Som yes, MVS carts are collected and building a complete collection of all complete MIB kits is very challenging and costly. But that was NEVER the intention of SNK. For god's sake, operators used to THROW AWAY old circuit boards once they stopped earning. Do you see laundromat operators saving and collecting there old washing machine circuit boards when they brake down or replace them? NOPE! But you know what, somewhere in the world, somebody collects those boards! But that in NO WAY means they were INTENDED to be! So again, ANYTHING can be collected, but not everything IS collected.

Please don't be "offended" by me or my comments though. I think we have met in person actually btw at the super auctions in Orlando. Do you remember? Anyhow, heck, I also "collect" MVS carts and I think they look great as well. But I just feel that it is a TOTALLY different market then HOME carts and should ALWAYS be treated as such. In short, the word "RARE" should be used far more sparingly and cautiously in the MVS cartridge "pool" then it is in the HOME cartridge pool. Do you understand my meaning? Nothing insulting, just an observation.

Lastly, with respect to your other comment, I NEVER said that the OPERATORS did the conversions. I clearly stated that the DISTRIBUTORS did them. It is possible that some smart operators did, but I know for a FACT that several distributors did. Do I have "PROOF", yes I do. But as I said, I don't want to embarass any of them who may be here or have ties to someone here primarily because a few of them are still in business today!

Don't worry I'm not offended and maybe my opening line wasn't the greatest I just got a bit ranty. Thought I still disagree, a box is a box for a home system game, whether its cardboard or plastic both of them can be displayed but its still the contents that are most important. One reason why I always laugh when people are seemingly dumbstruck by the fact that there are cart only home carts out there, or boxes that look like they've been run over by a truck, fact is people did by these and use them as games so I'm never surprised when I see and insert that looks like it went through a washer cycle.

Actually never met you, I missed the auction where you, bones, and Nesagwa met. If I'm back home over the summer I might make it to another Super Auction.

Sorry I confused distributors and ops, and I guess I may have misread or misinterpreted exactly what kind of conversions you said they're doing, is it home cart to mvs? I have seen hacked home cart systems with jamma connectors so they can be put in cabs and I understand that home carts were cheaper than MVS so I see the advantage there. Though I guess I don't see how a conversion is cost effective.

Apologies for the rant just had to say it.

omnedon · Jan 23, 2005

Being an AES collector does not mean you don't play the AES games. :rolleyes:

I play my Neo every day. My new AES purchases (SSVS, KOF 2002, MS5) now sport insertion marks.

I realize some AES collectors are anal and borderline crazy. That doesn't mean we all are.

MVS kit collecting is not for me. Not as appealing, as I don't have a cab, and it simply doesn't fit with my home game console collection hobby. MVS is not a home game console format.

That and the carts are fugly.

SuperGun · Jan 23, 2005

actually, mvs carts ARE the nicer ones imho

With referance to the "conversions", yes I have apparently confused everyone. I of course was refferring to MVS-to-MVS conversions. Like say converting a voltage fighter which earns no money into a metal slug which earns great.

Also as a side note Lithy...don't you see the irony here in regards to just how many bootlegs of the popular high revenue carts were made? So much so that YOU YOURSELF in your own sig are "seeking a non-bootleg bust-a-move cart"!

:rolleyes:

Also it's funny that some consider MVS carts to be "ugly" because I have always felt that as far as the actual cartridges themselves, the mvs carts are WAY nicer then the home carts! MVS carts are shaped more evenly while home carts have the annoying ergo grips which makes stacking them in order on top of one another impossible. Also very few home carts have the name of the game printed on the fold-over label so identifying them when they are displayed as such is quite troublesome. MVS carts set up and display far nicer and easier with their names clear and easy to see. Also mvs carts are way easier to open as they have screws while home carts have plastic lock notches that break easy. Nope, no doubt in my mind that MVS carts are the nicer of the two when compared loose. Of course HOME carts are nicer when compared as complete in the box.

Truth is a home cart can have a torn, ripped, or even missing label but as long as it is kept in the box on a shelf, you cannot see it and it looks great. While an MVS cart with ripped serials is far more noticeable and annoying for most collectors since in general, most mvs collectors are primarily gamers and so they do not collect them in the cardboard boxes or in shock boxes.

Billy

norton9478 · Jan 23, 2005

So you mean a conversion like this?

Yummy down on that one. I don't see how they could make any money with that. Unless they were using slave labor.

lithy · Jan 23, 2005

SuperGun said:
With referance to the "conversions", yes I have apparently confused everyone. I of course was refferring to MVS-to-MVS conversions. Like say converting a voltage fighter which earns no money into a metal slug which earns great.

Also as a side note Lithy...don't you see the irony here in regards to just how many bootlegs of the popular high revenue carts were made? So much so that YOU YOURSELF in your own sig are "seeking a non-bootleg bust-a-move cart"!

Where are the slug chips coming from then? If they're eproms/flashram that would be a bootleg right? Not a conversion.

I understand that there are tons of boots for high money makers, Bust a Move is notorious for this though actually, I have a legit copy but it has 2 eproms and power spikes 2 NGH numbers on the chips, I'm trying to find out if bust a moves exist with solid roms and Bust a Move NGH numbers on the chips.

Speaking of boots and which games make money, I saw a 4 slot at auction that had boots of metal slug and bust a move epoxied into the slots, just and extra reminder for the op I guess that those make the money.

omnedon · Jan 23, 2005

I'll certainly agree, that while fugly, MVS games are for more solidly constructed, and easier to maintain, than their AES counterparts. SNK made them well for the commercial use environment they were designed for.

ericb · Jan 23, 2005

I just wanted to interrupt this discussion to chime in and say that I'm honored to have Billy Pitt post in my thread. I smiled as soon as I saw "Gentlemen".

That's all, continue.

Amano Jacu · Jan 23, 2005

I agree with Billy here. MVS carts and all sort of arcade stuff are never meant to be used by particular people at home. They should just serve their purpose during their short commercial life, and after that they are basically of no use for their original owners.

However AES carts are directly sold to a private person for his personal home use, and he is supposed to keep it as long as he wants.

ericb · Jan 24, 2005

First off, thanks everyone for posting to my thread... I had no idea my question would spark a big "Are MVS carts actually collectable?" thread.

Anyway, on to my opinion (as if it really matters in the big scheme of things...):

My situation is one that many, I'm sure, can relate to. I used to play the Neo to death in arcades while growing up (the four-slot at a local community center, outfitted with SS1, SS2, FF Special, and AOF2, took my weekly allowance consistantly). Now, that I've graduated from high school and am working, I find myself in a situation where I can actually afford to own an AES and the games for it. No longer is it something surrounded with great longing and mystery in a Chips & Bits ad on page 42 of an ancient GamePro, but something tangible and real sitting in front of my TV in my basement. I am finally able to play these games in my home - in the fashion were created to be enjoyed in, as opposed to a port. So, I fall into the category of one of those people who "buy AES games to play them."

What boggles my mind, however, is how people collect AES for the sake of collecting AES. I understand that it must be nice to be able to afford to buy these titles and never play them, but I can honestly say that I'm having more fun playing pre-1995 titles on my AES than I have had playing any game on any modern console in a long time. That said, many people may wonder why I didn't go the MVS route, as I am a starving college kid and everything... I guess the answer to that is multifaceted (laziness, initial investment, etc), however, when it comes down to it, these games were made to be played.

It's really strange that something that was made to be nearly disposable - as described by Billy above - has become something that is revered with great value among such a (relatively) large group of people. In a way, it really is bizarre that there is such a term as "MVS collecting", but I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you would be able to find someone who has a thing for collecting Hershey chocolate wrappers from 1958-1963, or something even more niche than the obseesion all of us here share.

I realize that this post has been contradictory in many areas, but I guess my point is this: these games were worked on for literally thousands of collective hours by people who were willing to sacrifice their own social lives for the sake of their job, and their work would be laid to waste if that a collector's copy of MS2 is sitting sealed on someone's shelf somewhere, or that the contents of so-and-so's SSVS have only been touched by human hands once. They're video games.

And with that... the clocked rolled over 12:00, making me 20 years old today. What the hell am I doing with my life?

pretas · Jan 24, 2005

norton9478 said:
You also have to remember that the Neo Geo was one of the first import friendly boardsets. Before that, US Ops were forbideen by law to operate forign copies. Look at the boot intro to most 80's boards "IF you are using this outside the Territory of Japan you are commiting a crime" A jp cart that played in english was unheard of.

off topic:

looking at your sig...

did bush really do that hand gesture?

zhulien · Jan 24, 2005

pretas said:
off topic:

looking at your sig...

did bush really do that hand gesture?

is that a law of the USA or Japan? I always wonder why we have such silly messages on most games in the arcades here (in Australia).

Robert · Jan 24, 2005

I didn't expect such an interesting topic. I'm too lazy to post my entire opinion but to make a quick sum up, I play my game, both MVS and AES.
But my question would be: do the arcade manufacturers are completely unaware that a part of their products are home used?
I speak about those making PCB carts and not the driving twin cab.
When I say unaware I mean that they completely ignore this segment of market and don't take in account their needs and wishes.

MVS serials removed - why?

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