Spurs Fans and Heat Haterz, in here and talk shit

Kristian Meller · Jun 5, 2013

dspoonrt said:
Who cares about that one call, though?

I do. I don't care how people perceive his flopping at other times. When he doesn't flop he doesn't fucking flop. I'm also sick of the conspiracy theory shit, which got more retarded ammo by Nazr being thrown out instead of just getting a tech.

dspoonrt said:
And I don't think he's "way beyond" his choking days. He had a good run during the 2012 NBA Playoffs. I'd say he needs to repeat that at least once before we start saying that he's way beyond choking (something he's done in the vast majority of his playoff appearances).

He's been carrying the Heat for at least two rounds now. With least year's great Finals performance there's no reason to think he'll return to choking. Unless you're blinded by hate and envy.

dspoonrt said:
(...) so much so that you can't give him the benefit of the doubt when he is fouled/knocked to the ground.

All other good players do it. Chris Paul has a far, far more "impressive" flop real. LeBron has been getting hosed by the refs all season, so he definitely hasn't been given the benefit of the doubt . I know he's being singled out by haters because he's the best and people hate that they don't have him on their team.

dspoonrt said:
(something he's done in the vast majority of his playoff appearances).

That's called selective memory. He's been great in most series in which he's played. That 2011 Finals was one crap series, and there were probably some bad games in other series in which his Cavs lost. The reason they got swept against the Spurs and they didn't make it to the finals later on was because the supporting cast was crap. When his second best teammate was Mo Williams, and Mo got an all-star appearance because of injury to another player, Mo COMPLETELY vanished in the playoffs, and once again LeBron had to carry the load. Against great Celtics squads and whatnot, that's not going to be enough.

Kristian Meller · Jun 5, 2013

OrochiEddie said:
He is the boy who cried wolf.

Implying that LeBron is the only flopper out there is retarded. Tons of players flop because it's usually not caught and they gain an advantage doing it.

Taiso · Jun 5, 2013

Two things in Naiera's favor, even though I hate the Heat:

1.) Flopping IS a league wide problem. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have put rules in to deal with it. That may be a statement on how pathetic the NBA is now, but it's simply the way it is.

2.) Lebron is not a choke artist just because he occasionally misses a free throw now and again. I define a guy like John Starks as a choke artist, someone who elevated his game to a superstar level and then had one bad game against the Houston Rockets and never recovered from it. Lebron keeps bouncing back, and that is the mark of a superstar and one of the greatest ever.

Lebron IS an occasional flopper in my opinion, but it's not nearly as bad as that video would have others believe. It's easy to pick out ten or even twenty flops he's done in his career, even just in Miami, but compare that against all the games he's played in and it's a fairly small number. A similar video could be made of any player once flopping became a way to draw a foul.

Again, flopping in general is bullshit but every sport has its little tricks players do to get an edge. Flopping is one of basketball's 'little tricks.'

dspoonrt · Jun 5, 2013

Naiera said:
I do. I don't care how people perceive his flopping at other times. When he doesn't flop he doesn't fucking flop. I'm also sick of the conspiracy theory shit, which got more retarded ammo by Nazr being thrown out instead of just getting a tech.

I didn't see anyone else bring up this conspiracy theory or harp on that one particular call (like you're doing). Get over it.

Naiera said:
He's been carrying the Heat for at least two rounds now. With least year's great Finals performance there's no reason to think he'll return to choking. Unless you're blinded by hate and envy.

Blinded by hate and envy? No one is viciously arguing with you, just stating casual observations about Lebron's game. Why all this shortsighted fanboyism?

Naiera said:
All other good players do it. Chris Paul has a far, far more "impressive" flop real. LeBron has been getting hosed by the refs all season, so he definitely hasn't been given the benefit of the doubt. I know he's being singled out by haters because he's the best and people hate that they don't have him on their team.

Yes, he is singled out somewhat because he is one of the best players in the NBA. Among the best players in the league, he flops the most. That's all there is to it. AND, it's most evident when Lebron flops because of his large, physical, intimidating presence and athleticism. It would be hard to knock him down, yet he looks like a fish out of water when medium-sized defenders bump him or hit his arms.

Naiera said:
That's called selective memory. He's been great in most series in which he's played. That 2011 Finals was one crap series, and there were probably some bad games in other series in which his Cavs lost. The reason they got swept against the Spurs and they didn't make it to the finals later on was because the supporting cast was crap. When his second best teammate was Mo Williams, and Mo got an all-star appearance because of injury to another player, Mo COMPLETELY vanished in the playoffs, and once again LeBron had to carry the load. Against great Celtics squads and whatnot, that's not going to be enough.

Not selective memory. You agree that he choked on many occasions playing with the Cavs in the playoffs (over four seasons) and then again had a terrible 2011 Finals. That is the majority of his playoff experience. Yes, he is showing signs of dominance now, but his MO has been dropping a few plays or a few games in between spurts of complete dominance.

Taiso · Jun 5, 2013

In terms of choking, he had two consecutive passes stolen from him at critical points at the end of a recent playoff game because he chose to defer rather than just take the last shot.

You can say 'everyone's expecting him to do that' so he's facing an uphill battle, but it doesn't matter. Everyone expects Michael, Kobe, and all the 'greats' in NBA history to take that last shot. That is what a great player does. It's an intangible element that truly makes the difference between a proficient player and a NBA legend.

Additionally, many NBA players have won multiple championships while being significant contributors on their team. Look no further than Miami's own Mario Chalmers, who is a good player and who, more often than not, has contributed to Miami success. He will never be mistaken for a legend.

In short, Lebron shouldn't allow himself to be called 'King James' if he's not willing to live up to all the lofty expectations the media puts on that title.

It is his only flaw as a player in my opinion. He needs to become more ruthless on the court.

Kristian Meller · Jun 5, 2013

dspoonrt said:
I didn't see anyone else bring up this conspiracy theory or harp on that one particular call (like you're doing). Get over it.

I don't think you understand why I'm "harping". Falling down after being almost viciously shoved by Nazr Mohammed is on a FLOP REEL. This bothers me because it wasn't a fucking flop, and this leads me to say that the haters need to fucking learn how to see straight.

dspoonrt said:
Yes, he is singled out somewhat because he is one of the best players in the NBA.

LOL. He's by far the best player on the planet and there is absolutely no point in discussing that.

dspoonrt said:
Among the best players in the league, he flops the most.

I would say that Chris Paul is also among the best players in the league. He flops a hell of a lot more. He's not playing right now though...

dspoonrt said:
You agree that he choked on many occasions playing with the Cavs in the playoffs (over four seasons) and then again had a terrible 2011 Finals.

No, I don't agree. Losing is not choking. MJ, Kobe, Duncan, etc. never won anything on their own. LeBron had no one to help him at any point when he was with the Cavs. He got to the finals much earlier in his career than Jordan, but was swept because he had no help and the Spurs just brutally over-powered and "out-experienced" LeBron and the Cavs. That doesn't mean he choked.

Kristian Meller · Jun 5, 2013

Taiso said:
1.) Flopping IS a league wide problem. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have put rules in to deal with it. That may be a statement on how pathetic the NBA is now, but it's simply the way it is.

Note that the first time LeBron was fined or even cited for flopping was on that double flop with David West, where West was also fined. If there was a conspiracy carried out by the refs to help the Heat win (which is the argument people will probably come up with to explain the lack of LeBron-flop-fines until now), his free throw attempts per game this year wouldn't be down by one whole attempt from least year, and down as much as three from his most productive years at the line. I've watched almost all Heat games this year that weren't played on the west coast (cuz it's too damn late to stay up for), and he's been getting hosed on foul calls all year long. I know why he was bitching about it so much the other night in game six, and it's because he was sick and tired of not getting his damn calls.

Kristian Meller · Jun 5, 2013

Taiso said:
In terms of choking, he had two consecutive passes stolen from him at critical points at the end of a recent playoff game because he chose to defer rather than just take the last shot.

How can there be two turnovers/passes when there is just one last shot?

I watched that game and David West was just lucky as hell to be there to intercept those two passes. Shit happens. If you expect LeBron to be Kobe or MJ, you can criticise him for "deferring" (I prefer to just call it passing the ball to get a better shot), but he's a lot more Magic than people seem to realise. If he really wanted to lead the league in scoring, he obviously could, but he chooses to include his teammates more, because that's how he likes to do shit. Can't really criticise a guy for wanting to share the wealth a bit...

Taiso · Jun 5, 2013

I have to admit it's a lot funnier watching Lebron flop, though. When he flops, it looks like terrible overacting, almost like a mime being blown by the wind. And he DOES flop.

But I'd like to see him get to a point where he stops the occasional flopping and just goes into Assassin mode and decides 'I'm just going to score 50 points on you now.' That's how the greats always responded. Lebron has those flashes where you look at him and you think 'Oh shit, we're about to see something special on the court tonight.'

Although in many cases, these same Assassins also politicized the officiating in post game to put the refs on notice and lobby for more preferential treatment in the next game. Most of the superstars in the post Jordan era except, maybe, for Tim Duncan (and probably him, too), have done the same thing. It's just part and parcel of the bureaucracy of NBA court politics.

Taiso · Jun 5, 2013

Naiera said:
How can there be two turnovers/passes when there is just one last shot? I watched that game and David West was just lucky as hell to be there to intercept those two passes. Shit happens. If you expect LeBron to be Kobe or MJ, you can criticise him for "deferring" (I prefer to just call it passing the ball to get a better shot), but he's a lot more Magic than people seem to realise. If he really wanted to lead the league in scoring, he obviously could, but he chooses to include his teammates more, because that's how he likes to do shit. Can't really criticise a guy for wanting to share the wealth a bit...

First of all, you know what I'm saying, Lebron fan #1

But I DO criticize him for that. For me,l personally, I want to see dominant players be the alpha male, not the good teammate. It's my personal preference and it's what I like to see NBA superstars do. So for my tastes, it's weak for him to defer when he has the tools and talent to just win the game.

dspoonrt · Jun 5, 2013

Naiera said:
I don't think you understand why I'm "harping". Falling down after being almost viciously shoved by Nazr Mohammed is on a FLOP REEL. This bothers me because it wasn't a fucking flop, and this leads me to say that the haters need to fucking learn how to see straight.

Ok. You disagree with that flop call. That's fine. Lebron's usual reaction when approached with physical contact is to fall down and slide across the floor (often under his own power). That's why people accuse him of flopping every time he falls down.

Naiera said:
LOL. He's by far the best player on the planet and there is absolutely no point in discussing that.

Yes, Lebron is probably the best player in the NBA (that pretty much means best player in the world). Kevin Durant, Tony Parker, Carmelo Anthony, and Kobe Bryant (even at his age) all have a good argument for the title, though. It is easy to say that those are the best five players in the NBA but much harder to rank them or choose a true number one (but yes, probably Lebron, though).

Naiera said:
No, I don't agree. Losing is not choking. MJ, Kobe, Duncan, etc. never won anything on their own. LeBron had no one to help him at any point when he was with the Cavs. He got to the finals much earlier in his career than Jordan, but was swept because he had no help and the Spurs just brutally over-powered and "out-experienced" LeBron and the Cavs. That doesn't mean he choked.

Losing is not choking. Failing when your team depends on you is, though, and Lebron has done that on numerous occasions. I'm not necessarily against him. I want him to be a great player. He's just disappointing to watch sometimes.

Taiso · Jun 5, 2013

dspoonrt said:
Yes, Lebron is probably the best player in the NBA (that pretty much means best player in the world). Kevin Durant, Tony Parker, Carmelo Anthony, and Kobe Bryant (even at his age) all have a good argument for the title, though. It is easy to say that those are the best five players in the NBA but much harder to rank them or choose a true number one (but yes, probably Lebron, though).

When fellow choke artist Derrick Rose comes back next year, he will be bumping one of these chumps.

Oh, we can also call Derrick a sandbagger and next year, when everyone's attacking him I'll wage a one man campaign to ensure the internet isn't slurring his good name.

Earthquake24 · Jun 5, 2013

The amount of flopping that is done these days, it's almost become second nature to do it, which to me means that almost all NBA coaches and assts. are instinctively teaching it in some manner in practice. If you look at how almost all of these players flop, it's almost always done with the same technique. Some of the more outrageous ones should be given academy awards but for the consistent ones you see, it's always the same way. Just get rid of the joke $5,000 Anti-Flop fine, and start giving Technicals or threaten Suspensions, then you'll see that crap end.

Kristian Meller · Jun 5, 2013

dspoonrt said:
Kevin Durant, Tony Parker, Carmelo Anthony, and Kobe Bryant (even at his age) all have a good argument for the title, though.

No. Not even close.

dspoonrt · Jun 5, 2013

Earthquake24 said:
The amount of flopping that is done these days, it's almost become second nature to do it, which to me means that almost all NBA coaches and assts. are instinctively teaching it in some manner in practice. If you look at how almost all of these players flop, it's almost always done with the same technique. Some of the more outrageous ones should be given academy awards but for the consistent ones you see, it's always the same way. Just get rid of the joke $5,000 Anti-Flop fine, and start giving Technicals or threaten Suspensions, then you'll see that crap end.

Agreed. Technical fouls should be assessed in-game after a blatant flop, and one-game suspensions should follow suit if a very egregious flop is missed by the officials (which is quite often).

Naiera said:
No. Not even close.

Your skills of argument are second to none.

OrochiEddie · Jun 5, 2013

Taiso said:
First of all, you know what I'm saying, Lebron fan #1

But I DO criticize him for that. For me,l personally, I want to see dominant players be the alpha male, not the good teammate. It's my personal preference and it's what I like to see NBA superstars do. So for my tastes, it's weak for him to defer when he has the tools and talent to just win the game.

I respect your thought on that, but a good player is made great (IMO) by his ability to work with his team. Working with your team is such a massive component of basketball (considering its a team sport). I got in a bit of an argument with a co-worker yesterday because he kept saying LeBron was the best player ever, and would say it was pointless to acknowledge how he worked with his fellow players. It is why Kobe fell short, he never could seemingly work well with his team mates. Jordan did have an amazing line-up to work with, but he also worked with them. Jordan could play in the clutch, could give it to someone and would, but also knew when he was the one that could do it, or the only one who could do it.

To be fair I'm from Chicagoland so I may have a slight bias.

Taiso · Jun 5, 2013

I don't think 'team player' is one of the first things people look for in the current age of judging the longevity of a NBA player's legacy. I think it can be used to judge many things about a player, but this league's perception is driven by marquee players dominating on the court. Perhaps some day, in fifty years, people will be judging the best players by a different set of criteria and the invariable Lebron comparisons wil come up, but because Lebron played in a superstar era of the NBA, that is how he will ultimately be judged.

The Spurs are a great team, but they are always getting little to no respect except when they bite deep into the playoffs. Then it's all 'Poppovich' this and 'Duncan that.' Nobody ever gives them credit for playing team oriented basketball. It's not because they aren't good. It's because they have a very old fashioned composition where everyone's lookking for human highlight reals.

Insofar as team mentality goes, the only thing you ever really hear is people say 'He made everyone around him better.' They did the same thing with MJ.

Kristian Meller · Jun 5, 2013

dspoonrt said:
Your skills of argument are second to none.

Your list of four other great players was legendary.

dspoonrt · Jun 5, 2013

Naiera said:
Your list of four other great players was legendary.

Four players that don't exist on your radar because you can't see them from inside Lebron's ass.

Those other four players are great because they either score as much or more than Lebron or help their team out as much or more than Lebron does, particularly in Tony Parker's case. Honestly though, you can't even compare players like Anthony and James anymore because Lebron's teammates give him so many more openings. If Anthony played with three NBA greats, who knows what he'd be doing (he's already dropping 40-50 a night like it's nothing)?

Normdog · Jun 6, 2013

Naiera said:
Chris Paul has a far, far more "impressive" flop real.

Chris Paul is my favorite flopper. He’s fun to watch and he's very dedicated to his craft.

Some good CP3 flops –

Kristian Meller · Jun 6, 2013

dspoonrt said:
Those other four players are great because they either score as much or more than Lebron or help their team out as much or more than Lebron does, particularly in Tony Parker's case. Honestly though, you can't even compare players like Anthony and James anymore because Lebron's teammates give him so many more openings. If Anthony played with three NBA greats, who knows what he'd be doing (he's already dropping 40-50 a night like it's nothing)?

I honestly don't think I need to argue for LeBron being the (much) better player. The numbers and efficiency ratings alone should do the job. In regards to team success, no one's doing better right now either. With the Cavs, his teams had the best regular season record in the league for years, and he had very little help in achieving that.

Carmelo does play with some rather good talent already. He went to the Knicks to have his own version of the Big Three, but he can't co-exist with other stars like LeBron can. He's also strictly a scorer, while LeBron can do it all.

Kristian Meller · Jun 6, 2013

Normdog said:
Chris Paul is my favorite flopper. He’s fun to watch and he's very dedicated to his craft.

I'd definitely say he's the best in the league. Ginobili and Derek Fisher are also great.

They also have great flopping in the college game:

dspoonrt · Jun 6, 2013

Naiera said:
Carmelo does play with some rather good talent already. He went to the Knicks to have his own version of the Big Three, but he can't co-exist with other stars like LeBron can. He's also strictly a scorer, while LeBron can do it all.

I know Anthony is on a pretty good team, lots of role players. Besides the ever-injured Stoudemire and Carmelo, who's the third member of New York's "Big Three," the 40-year-old, now-retired Jason Kidd?

Also, he's not strictly a scorer. Anthony rebounds and passes well (just not as well as Lebron).

Kristian Meller · Jun 6, 2013

2.8 APG this season is quite a bit worse than LeBron and a lot of other good small forwards in the league :kekeke:

dspoonrt · Jun 6, 2013

Naiera said:
2.8 APG this season is quite a bit worse than LeBron and a lot of other good small forwards in the league

Yes, that's true. He grabbed 6.9 rebounds per game, though, just slightly under Lebron who had 8.0 per game. Anthony also had less turnovers per game and a better free throw percentage, while averaging more points per game than Lebron.

I'm not saying that Carmelo is definitively better than Lebron (this season or in general), just that there's an argument to be made for him and a few other NBA superstars.

Spurs Fans and Heat Haterz, in here and talk shit

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