Tropes vs. Women

man, what blows my mind is that I haven't a clue what's being talked about. The last current gen game I played was RE6, and before that, Fallout Vegas. Neither of them have these gender issues, as far as I saw. Ada Wong was definitely not in distress. She never needed Leon as much as he needed her to save his ass from the chainsaw maniac. Fallout doesn't care if you are using a female or a male, but either way, the closes thing I can think of that has a damsel in distress was Vera in the Dead Money add-on. Otherwise, I don't see this as a huge issue. It's like the writer wants to make the issue happen in order to have an argument. Now that, might be a stereotype...

Anita's videos on the subject prove that the tropes are out there in droves in gaming.

The sad thing is that it shows such a lack of imagination or narrative agility for developers to fall back on the trope and not do better with it.

She's not entirely wrong to take this trope to the woodshed. But its not the existence of the trope that bugs me. It's how poorly it's executed in so many games. If the woman is only going to be a cause for revenge and only be an excuse to get gamers mashing buttons, why not have the dude's house get burned down or his winning lottery ticket get stolen? If 'writing by the numbers' is the only way they can introduce and handle these elements of storytelling, they shouldn't even bother with it. It's half assed bullshit, and the more I think about all the games I've played where I really didn't care about the motivation the female victim provided, the more annoyed I'm getting.

Taiso said:

Anita's videos on the subject prove that the tropes are out there in droves in gaming.

The sad thing is that it shows such a lack of imagination or narrative agility for developers to fall back on the trope and not do better with it.

She's not entirely wrong to take this trope to the woodshed. But its not the existence of the trope that bugs me. It's how poorly it's executed in so many games. If the woman is only going to be a cause for revenge and only be an excuse to get gamers mashing buttons, why not have the dude's house get burned down or his winning lottery ticket get stolen? If 'writing by the numbers' is the only way they can introduce and handle these elements of storytelling, they shouldn't even bother with it. It's half assed bullshit, and the more I think about all the games I've played where I really didn't care about the motivation the female victim provided, the more annoyed I'm getting.

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by trope you mean, one, and only one, of the many kinds of tropes that exist - cliche? Because I don't see how the other tropes really apply.

I'm not trying to make a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be, but she is basically making an unwarranted blanket statement about tropes. Not all tropes want to be associated with cliches. Cliches aren't cool or popular. Not like understatement, who is actually funny.

I don't think it's unwarranted to say that women are written poorly and in many cases cater to a misogynistic portrayal in storytelling.

And as stewards of narrative, game companies should really be trying harder to do better with this type of storytelling.

I wonder if she'll ever cop to the fact that these things are appealing to a certain percentage of human beings not because of how they've been enforced to condition behavior but because people actually don't care enough to stand against it? For good or bad, this cause might not even be winnable due to sheer apathy?

Do game companies really think that this type of storytelling sells games? CoD would prove otherwise.

Meh. I play Civ5. Checkmate, atheists!

Wait, women don't need to be sheltered and protected?

That would imply that women don't want to be sheltered and protected. (read: spoiled)

They like to play the damsel themselves. Women like to use men when they can't (or just plain don't want to) do something, but get mad if we imply that they can't do something. You can't have it both ways, bitches.

Women are fully capable of taking care of themselves, but there are physical differences to what they can and can't do compared to men, that's just facing facts.

BORING!!!

I wana see Tropes vs. Taliban

Sex Lord Ki_atsushi said:

Wait, women don't need to be sheltered and protected?

That would imply that women don't want to be sheltered and protected. (read: spoiled)

They like to play the damsel themselves. Women like to use men when they can't (or just plain don't want to) do something, but get mad if we imply that they can't do something. You can't have it both ways, bitches.

Women are fully capable of taking care of themselves, but there are physical differences to what they can and can't do compared to men, that's just facing facts.

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There is definitely some onus on women to work on the bad rap they get for enforcing the 'victims' of their gender.

Which is, whether you like her or not, exactly what Anita Sarkeesian is doing. I welcome the dialogue precisely for that reason-it's always good to check yourself. Just wish she did more to that effect more often.

aria said:

Meh. I play Civ5. Checkmate, atheists!

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Catherine vs. Elizabeth catfight! meow.

Tyranix95 said:

BORING!!!

I wana see Tropes vs. Taliban

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Tropes vs. Tyrannosaurs!

Well, I think its about time we had some fighting games with guys that have big jiggly packages. I think that should about even it out. Also, no women characters in that game. And lost of grapple moves... with like a slow motion camera angle matrix kind of thing going on. I think a few games like that would even things out pretty well. Maybe you could use your kinect to see who you are playing against, and maybe you would have to pose out some of the moves with motion controls. Hell, I may have just come up with a idea for a new xbox launch title. We could call it something like Man on Man full contact Wrestling Or The Heroic Outrageous Manly Ones.... or for short The H.O.M.O's.

I get so sick of all this trope-this and trope that complaining. Everyone who complains about female tropes in entertainment needs to go out and write a novel or write for tv or direct a movie or produce a video game or start writing comics. Stop standing around whining about how male writers in whatever medium write things from a male perspective with a male audience in mind. If you don't like it, get the fuck in there and make something. And no, fucking youtube videos do not count.

SouthtownKid said:

I get so sick of all this trope-this and trope that complaining. Everyone who complains about female tropes in entertainment needs to go out and write a novel or write for tv or direct a movie or produce a video game or start writing comics. Stop standing around whining about how male writers in whatever medium write things from a male perspective with a male audience in mind. If you don't like it, get the fuck in there and make something. And no, fucking youtube videos do not count.

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This was attempted with the successful shitty comedy Bridesmaids.

FAT$TACKS said:

Well, I think its about time we had some fighting games with guys that have big jiggly packages. I think that should about even it out. Also, no women characters in that game. And lost of grapple moves... with like a slow motion camera angle matrix kind of thing going on. I think a few games like that would even things out pretty well. Maybe you could use your kinect to see who you are playing against, and maybe you would have to pose out some of the moves with motion controls. Hell, I may have just come up with a idea for a new xbox launch title. We could call it something like Man on Man full contact Wrestling Or The Heroic Outrageous Manly Ones.... or for short The H.O.M.O's.

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The Japanese already invented Sumo centuries ago.

Reason should be obvious why none of those video games ever makes it to the US shores.

aria said:

Tropes vs. Tyrannosaurs!

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Now that's kinda one sided.



Naw, what she needs is a Barbarian.

Taiso said:

I don't think it's unwarranted to say that women are written poorly and in many cases cater to a misogynistic portrayal in storytelling.

And as stewards of narrative, game companies should really be trying harder to do better with this type of storytelling.

I wonder if she'll ever cop to the fact that these things are appealing to a certain percentage of human beings not because of how they've been enforced to condition behavior but because people actually don't care enough to stand against it? For good or bad, this cause might not even be winnable due to sheer apathy?

Do game companies really think that this type of storytelling sells games? CoD would prove otherwise.

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From her twitter comments she might be lumping people like that in the camp of the people trying to silence her( that second video was flagged so hard it was taken down for a bit yesterday )

SouthtownKid said:

I get so sick of all this trope-this and trope that complaining. Everyone who complains about female tropes in entertainment needs to go out and write a novel or write for tv or direct a movie or produce a video game or start writing comics. Stop standing around whining about how male writers in whatever medium write things from a male perspective with a male audience in mind. If you don't like it, get the fuck in there and make something. And no, fucking youtube videos do not count.

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I disagree with this viewpoint.

By this logic, only athletes can be critical of sports and only artists can be critical of art.

One doesn't have to be a game developer to criticize the tropes and memes that exist in the industry. In fact, you're more likely to get objective criticism from independent observers.

I think your issue here is that she has an agenda. She's not going after this issue in an academic or studious way. She's a pissed off feminist propping her argument up with research. She's a high profile internet grouse.

The subject is still worth thinking about and discussing.

The youtube lady is half right in that there ARE a lot of stereotypes in video games that male gamers don't even notice anymore, and this is where the problem lies. IMO it's not sexism we're talking about here but a certain carelessness towards these things on part of the gamer community who used to be predominantly male.

Other than that, I don't like how she talks about stereotypes and then comes up with some herself. I also completely disagree with what she said about Double Dragon Neon. She's taking the whole thing too far.

Taiso said:

I disagree with this viewpoint.

By this logic, only athletes can be critical of sports and only artists can be critical of art.

One doesn't have to be a game developer to criticize the tropes and memes that exist in the industry. In fact, you're more likely to get objective criticism from independent observers.

I think your issue here is that she has an agenda. She's not going after this issue in an academic or studious way. She's a pissed off feminist propping her argument up with research. She's a high profile internet grouse.

The subject is still worth thinking about and discussing.

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No, it means that people need to stop bitching when they see a problem, and take advantage of it. And if it's a success, then they benefit - if it's not, then they are just vain whiners.

This is a stupid discussion.

I fucking love stupid discussions.

Excuse me, but a trope is really a figure of speech, not a stereotype or cliché. I would like to add that I don't give a shit what this pseudo-intellectual is babbling about on youtube.

Youtube ports of Women's studies on n-g.com? Multicarts being sold by the neostore? Much has changed since my last visit to this place...

I forgot to say that I had more than enough Postcolonial and Women's studies to last me a lifetime when I was at university...oh the joy of taking 19th century literature to discover the professor had decided to make it Feminist readings of 19th c. literature...

Sarkeesian is also being wilfully ignorant about the inherenty need for mythology that exists within the human subconscious.

Every culture has its own Theseus story. Even today, stories about young men triumphing over evil and winning the love of the damsel in distress aren't simply about objectifying the woman.

The psychological need to win the heart of someone you find desirable is a form of validation. It's an expression of conquest over one's own insecurities as much as it is a victory over someone's heart.

This stuff comes from a place deeper than she is willing to cop to. Even when poorly handled or executed, it is coming from places that simply exist within us, inextricably connected but independent of anything we, as divisions of culture, are able to put our fingers on. Even the deepest attempts to explain why we feel them don't explain why they exist.

Sarkeesian's criticisms are dodging around the issue of why they're so ingrained, and she's straw manning them by saying 'it's all enforced gender stereotypes' as though the supposed male dominated creative minds of the entertainment industry have some insidious hate agenda against vaginas. It's simply not true.

Another thing she's not really willing to face up to: storytelilng, daydreaming, making up adventures...these are things children do. Those of us who grow up to make money doing it never completely mature. That childlike fascination with telling stories is an impulse that, even at its most effete and arrogant, is meant to impress others and satisfy some inner urge to express one's self for the sake of validation. In a strange way, the insecurity behind this is tied very closely with the hero's own insecurity about conquering evil and winning the heart of the woman he has fallen in love with.

These are not strictly hate agendas enforced by the entertainment industry. They're just poorly executed ideas and concepts that need better administration, both by the creators and their overseers.

Lovecraft0110 said:

I would like to add that I don't give a shit what this pseudo-intellectual is babbling about on youtube.

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At least we know that you don't care now.

Taiso said:

At least we know that you don't care now.

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Heheh, very good.

Thanks for taking that in the humorous tone intended. It's got a bit more unintentional snark than I generally use when responding to other forum members except for Saner because he's the king of the dipshits.

Taiso said:

both by the creators and their overseers.

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Creators shouldn't have overseers. A real piece of art should be allowed to develop solely by the hands of the creator. Otherwise, you end up with Dune.