Why haven't any of you doll fuckers started a Game of Thrones topic?

evil wasabi

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I see where you're coming from with Sansa. Especially after last night's episode refreshing my memory of Cersei's walk with Margaery's grandmother, and Cersei's talk with Tywin. Women are primarily looked at as inferior in ASOIAF . But how many of them really demand respect? (almost) Everyone sells their dignity out eventually.
 

Taiso

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Insofar as how Varys and Littlefinger became members of the Small Council, I sort of look that as opportunity favoring the bold.

In history, Thomas Cromwell was the son of a blacksmith, common birth, and he eventually rose to the position of Henry VIII's chief minister. He just made himself useful enough to be noticed by enough important people to be noticed by the king, eventually.

For both Varys and Littlefinger, I think it's more of the same. It's just a matter of getting enough influence amongst the nobles to be noteworthy through money, information and favors, until someone eventually put their names in the ear of the king, one thing led to another and they ended up on the Small Council.

As for Dany, I have never loved the character but I didn't dislike her either. I know she's popular, but Martin still says that the two most popular characters are Arya Stark and Jon Snow, insofar as the book's readers are concerned. The TV show fans probably like Tyrion, Arya and Dany the most.

When it comes to Dany, I find her journey pretty interesting because of all the things we have yet to see.

Spoiler:
The Martin quote in my sig summarizes it perfectly: Dani has young girl dreams of freeing slaves and bringing joy to everyone, but that is far removed from the realities of caring for the people you've freed, many of whom know no other life and will not be able to adjust. I like the fact that she stops trying to conquer Westeros later on and just settles in for a while, even though I think she'll end up in Westeros again eventually. It's cool to see the character grow up and show how her naive perspective is completely at odds with the realities of governing large groups of people. I think she becomes more interesting at that point, to be truthful.


As for how women are treated in ASOIF, I think history bears out that most of them were treated like shit and had to deal with a lot of crap through the years. If they weren't so viper quick with their wit that they could disarm men and get equal footing with them, or if they didn't have men strong enough to defend them from others, a lot of their natural creativity and finer qualities were supressed. Women, especially noblewomen, throughout history were just expected to pump out babies and make alliances. History has shown that there are plenty of storng women throughout the ages that have held the same power and authority as men, but it was definitely seen as an anomaly and not the norm, if only because men historically kept them quiet.

Women had to be strong in other ways, ways that are more subtle, in order to achieve any kind of victory or satisfaction. They created their own rules of engagement, and found worth in their achievements in ways that weren't generally accepted by men, who traditionally controlled everything back then. There is a certain, subtle dignity in seeing a woman like Sansa just cling to her sense of self no matter what happens. She never stops believing that her family is good, she never willingly adopts the Lannister point of view. Robb is fighting his battles his way and winning, and Sansa is doing no less. Considering that the objective of her struggle is to cling to her northern self and not TRULY become the kept pet of the Lannies, given her situation, I'd say she's as brave and courageous as she can possibly be. That's as strong as anything the others are doing, circumstances being relative.
 
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evil wasabi

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Insofar as how Varys and Littlefinger became members of the Small Council, I sort of look that as opportunity favoring the bold.

In history, Thomas Cromwell was the son of a blacksmith, common birth, and he eventually rose to the position of Henry VIII's chief minister. He just made himself useful enough to be noticed by enough important people to be noticed by the king, eventually.

For both Varys and Littlefinger, I think it's more of the same. It's just a matter of getting enough influence amongst the nobles to be noteworthy through money, information and favors, until someone eventually put their names in the ear of the king, one thing led to another and they ended up on the Small Council.

As for Dany, I have never loved the character but I didn't dislike her either. I know she's popular, but Martin still says that the two most popular characters are Arya Stark and Jon Snow, insofar as the book's readers are concerned. The TV show fans probably like Tyrion, Arya and Dany the most.

When it comes to Dany, I find her journey pretty interesting because of all the things we have yet to see.

Spoiler:
The Martin quote in my sig summarizes it perfectly: Dani has young girl dreams of freeing slaves and bringing joy to everyone, but that is far removed from the realities of caring for the people you've freed, many of whom know no other life and will not be able to adjust. I like the fact that she stops trying to conquer Westeros later on and just settles in for a while, even though I think she'll end up in Westeros again eventually. It's cool to see the character grow up and show how her naive perspective is completely at odds with the realities of governing large groups of people. I think she becomes more interesting at that point, to be truthful.


As for how women are treated in ASOIF, I think history bears out that most of them were treated like shit and had to deal with a lot of crap through the years. If they weren't so viper quick with their wit that they could disarm men and get equal footing with them, or if they didn't have men strong enough to defend them from others, a lot of their natural creativity and finer qualities were supressed. Women, especially noblewomen, throughout history were just expected to pump out babies and make alliances. History has shown that there are plenty of storng women throughout the ages that have held the same power and authority as men, but it was definitely seen as an anomaly and not the norm, if only because men historically kept them quiet.

Women had to be strong in other ways, ways that are more subtle, in order to achieve any kind of victory or satisfaction. They created their own rules of engagement, and found worth in their achievements in ways that weren't generally accepted by men, who traditionally controlled everything back then. There is a certain, subtle dignity in seeing a woman like Sansa just cling to her sense of self no matter what happens. She never stops believing that her family is good, she never willingly adopts the Lannister point of view. Robb is fighting his battles his way and winning, and Sansa is doing no less. Considering that the objective of her struggle is to cling to her northern self and not TRULY become the kept pet of the Lannies, given her situation, I'd say she's as brave and courageous as she can possibly be. That's as strong as anything the others are doing, circumstances being relative.

Your point about fortune favoring the bold really applies after I go back and reflect on last night's episode more. The scene where Tyrion visits Varys and it's pointed out that Tyrion does not have the spies or the influence to know his enemy's next moves, and you know that Varys does, and he probably got that influence from doing favors for Illyrio. And maybe it's a lesson for everyone that you may not have power, but someone does, and if you can get on their good graces, you can move further than on your own alone. I'm just being introspective here. Life lessons I should hold heart for myself.

I am really looking forward to seeing the depiction of Dornish women on the show. You know it will happen soon.

I can agree that in the books, Jon and Arya are the most "cool." Reading through Feast I just wanted to know what would happen with Arya. Prediction - the show will not go strictly by the book on her transformation. But for me still Jamie wins out. His road to redemption and honor is too tangible compared to everyone else's struggles.

Spoiler:
the scene where he gives Brienne the sword is probably where everyone is going to start saying that Jamie is their favorite too.</bobak>
 

Taiso

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Fortune favoring the bold is the only explanation that makes sense. These guys were willing to take some chances, buy and sell information using the different skills they had for acquiring them.

Varys probably spied on people as a thief and Littlefinger probably got the information from his whores' clients. There is plenty of historical preedent for wealthy and important people not being discreet enough when they went whoring and in a fit of drunkenness or overconfidence, or both, they bragged about it to them. Littlefinger probably watched through the proverbial hole in the wall. the Tower of the Hand has all kinds of passages like that, and Varys probably discovered them as a thief or had their knowledge given to him by someone else and that's how he got the juciest of his secrets.

Varys probably got significant financial backing from Illyrio to conduct his operations and in time that simply paid off. Varys then would have not only gathered the info on his own, but established a spy net of children and other informers to be pretty much everywhere and overhear everything and report on matters of note.

Spies and intrigues of this type exist in the world today and in the past. I don't know that it's ever been solidly established in ASOIF, but Martin has proven a deft enough writer and student of history and historical drama that he could easily play it off and it would be convincing.

The reason characters like Jon and Arya are so beloved by the audience, I believe, is because they are portal characters for an audience that desperately wants to see justice in Westeros. Jon Snow starts as a bastard and does some pretty amazing things. I argue that he's the true hero of the entire story. Whether or not that's true, he certainly resembles the most classical of fantasy hero archetypes: misunderstood outcast with tremendous fighting skills, a grand destiny he knows nothing about, a cool and mysterious animal companion and a special sword made of a rare and unique metal. He is the archetypal hero of myth. Audiences attach themselves to that because through Jon, they can see good win the day.

And as for Arya, she's the gym rat that strives to rise above her station and expectations in order to defy the odds and get revenge for all the things that the Starks have suffered. Audiences can cheer for her because of how she is a pure survivor, outliving long odds time and time again and finally reaching that point where maybe, just maybe, she can do something about it.

In either case, one can never be too sure of what Martin is going to do with these characters, but I feel fairly confident in thinking:

Spoiler:
Jon Snow is nowhere near dead after book 5. There is too much riding on that character and I don't think Martin can get away with that one. How he survives is beyond me, but my guess is that he is going to end up being the reborn hero, as the Targaryan blood in him will protect him from Melissandra's purfying rite and he'll emerge fully healed and unscarred. Arya will return with Needle and exact some form of revenge with her newfound shapeshifting powers. She will probably also command that army of wolves in the north, which in all likelihood are the long missing Nymeria's pack that she assembled after Arya was forced to abandon her in the first book. She'll likely remain a Stark, even though the assassins are trying to cull that from her. Why else would she hide the sword under the steps of the temple?


Jamie is a really great character and I am a sucker for redemption stories.
 
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Cylotron

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latest episode was pretty dull until the end

Game-of-Thrones-Season-3-Daenerys-Targaryen-Animated.gif
 

Taiso

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I thought it was a solid episode, myself. So many good conversations.

Jamie w/Brienne
Cleggane w/Dondarrion and Arya
Varys w/Olena
Tyrion w/Varys
Sansa w/Marjorie
Cersei w/Olena
Joffrey w/Marjorie

There was a lot of great tension and foundation laid for plot twists and developments still to come.
 

evil wasabi

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Fortune favoring the bold is the only explanation that makes sense. These guys were willing to take some chances, buy and sell information using the different skills they had for acquiring them.

Varys probably spied on people as a thief and Littlefinger probably got the information from his whores' clients. There is plenty of historical preedent for wealthy and important people not being discreet enough when they went whoring and in a fit of drunkenness or overconfidence, or both, they bragged about it to them. Littlefinger probably watched through the proverbial hole in the wall. the Tower of the Hand has all kinds of passages like that, and Varys probably discovered them as a thief or had their knowledge given to him by someone else and that's how he got the juciest of his secrets.

Varys probably got significant financial backing from Illyrio to conduct his operations and in time that simply paid off. Varys then would have not only gathered the info on his own, but established a spy net of children and other informers to be pretty much everywhere and overhear everything and report on matters of note.

Spies and intrigues of this type exist in the world today and in the past. I don't know that it's ever been solidly established in ASOIF, but Martin has proven a deft enough writer and student of history and historical drama that he could easily play it off and it would be convincing.

The reason characters like Jon and Arya are so beloved by the audience, I believe, is because they are portal characters for an audience that desperately wants to see justice in Westeros. Jon Snow starts as a bastard and does some pretty amazing things. I argue that he's the true hero of the entire story. Whether or not that's true, he certainly resembles the most classical of fantasy hero archetypes: misunderstood outcast with tremendous fighting skills, a grand destiny he knows nothing about, a cool and mysterious animal companion and a special sword made of a rare and unique metal. He is the archetypal hero of myth. Audiences attach themselves to that because through Jon, they can see good win the day.

And as for Arya, she's the gym rat that strives to rise above her station and expectations in order to defy the odds and get revenge for all the things that the Starks have suffered. Audiences can cheer for her because of how she is a pure survivor, outliving long odds time and time again and finally reaching that point where maybe, just maybe, she can do something about it.

In either case, one can never be too sure of what Martin is going to do with these characters, but I feel fairly confident in thinking:

Spoiler:
Jon Snow is nowhere near dead after book 5. There is too much riding on that character and I don't think Martin can get away with that one. How he survives is beyond me, but my guess is that he is going to end up being the reborn hero, as the Targaryan blood in him will protect him from Melissandra's purfying rite and he'll emerge fully healed and unscarred. Arya will return with Needle and exact some form of revenge with her newfound shapeshifting powers. She will probably also command that army of wolves in the north, which in all likelihood are the long missing Nymeria's pack that she assembled after Arya was forced to abandon her in the first book. She'll likely remain a Stark, even though the assassins are trying to cull that from her. Why else would she hide the sword under the steps of the temple?


Jamie is a really great character and I am a sucker for redemption stories.

Really good discussion. Love the way you laid out the design for Jon Snow. Almost hilarious, but spot on. This season so far, things have been slow because so much is going on and so much is being compressed. What has been shown has been great. And yes, I think the fight between the Hound and Dondarrion is going to be an important tell for the show. If the producers don't put effort in it, don't expect people to know how other things play out later.

Spoiler:

Dondarrion's trick to revive the current leader of the Men Without Banners - will that be used to revive Jon later? Scary.
If Arya ends up going back to Westeros, which is probably going to happen, she's going to run into Crazy Cat, probably. wonder if she'll be recognized.
 

Taiso

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I think Jon evolves the way he does because Martin is a genre fan and even he wants to have a true 'hero' character for the story, someone that he can root for after all the shit that goes down in Westeros.

Pure speculation, but I just don't think Martin can help himself. As cycnical as the story may seem at times, the dude is a hopeless romantic.

Spoiler:
All speculation here, of course. I see Jon being saved by Melissandre because they've hinted at the burning magics of the Red Priests to keep people alive and resurrect them from the dead. You see it with Dondarrion, but you also see it later with Victarion Greyjoy, but he has a burned arm. I believe the legend of Azor Ahigh states that he will come back through fire bearing a red sword (can't remember the sword detail, but Longclaw IS made from Valyrian Steel, which can become red in certain forges.) Mellisandre is irrationally compelled towards Jon. Her sole chapter in A Dance With Dragons talks about how much she is drawn to him, how he means something to her but she can't explain what it is. We've seen that fire magic can be used to heal people and keep them alive in ASOIF, and if Mellisandre believes that her destiny is to be close to Jon, perhaps it's because he's actually supposed to be the real One True King she keeps going on about. I could easily see her giving him the Kiss of Fire to bring him back, but if the theory that he is the son of Raygar and Leanna holds true, then like Dany, he has Targaryan blood in him and we've seen it is selective how it works and will probably save him without disfigurement. I don't even think he'll be like Dondarrion when he returns, but who can say? If all this turns out to be the story, however, I don't think he'll take the Iron Throne. I think, at the end, he'll let Dany have it and remember the lesson of Maester Aemon and he'll just stay in the north. Or, because he's also got true Stark blood in him, he'll return to run Winterfell if he can't stay in the Night's Watch. According to this theory, he's a Stark and will want to conduct himself with honor. I don't think it breaks the character, the story or the believability of the premise, everything else given as it has gone so far, if Martin resovles it that way. But whatever, the circumstances, I think Martin is way too invested in Jon to just off him like that. It was a classic comic book cliffhanger ending, because Martin is a massive fan of comic books and serialized storytelling.


Just a theory.
 
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evil wasabi

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I think Jon evolves the way he does because Martin is a genre fan and even he wants to have a true 'hero' character for the story, someone that he can root for after all the shit that goes down in Westeros.

Pure speculation, but I just don't think Martin can help himself. As cycnical as the story may seem at times, the dude is a hopeless romantic.

Spoiler:
All speculation here, of course. I see Jon being saved by Melissandre because they've hinted at the burning magics of the Red Priests to keep people alive and resurrect them from the dead. You see it with Dondarrion, but you also see it later with Victarion Greyjoy, but he has a burned arm. I believe the legend of Azor Ahigh states that he will come back through fire bearing a red sword (can't remember the sword detail, but Longclaw IS made from Valyrian Steel, which can become red in certain forges.) Mellisandre is irrationally compelled towards Jon. Her sole chapter in A Dance With Dragons talks about how much she is drawn to him, how he means something to her but she can't explain what it is. We've seen that fire magic can be used to heal people and keep them alive in ASOIF, and if Mellisandre believes that her destiny is to be close to Jon, perhaps it's because he's actually supposed to be the real One True King she keeps going on about. I could easily see her giving him the Kiss of Fire to bring him back, but if the theory that he is the son of Raygar and Leanna holds true, then like Dany, he has Targaryan blood in him and we've seen it is selective how it works and will probably save him without disfigurement. I don't even think he'll be like Dondarrion when he returns, but who can say? If all this turns out to be the story, however, I don't think he'll take the Iron Throne. I think, at the end, he'll let Dany have it and remember the lesson of Maester Aemon and he'll just stay in the north. Or, because he's also got true Stark blood in him, he'll return to run Winterfell if he can't stay in the Night's Watch. According to this theory, he's a Stark and will want to conduct himself with honor. I don't think it breaks the character, the story or the believability of the premise, everything else given as it has gone so far, if Martin resovles it that way. But whatever, the circumstances, I think Martin is way too invested in Jon to just off him like that. It was a classic comic book cliffhanger ending, because Martin is a massive fan of comic books and serialized storytelling.


Just a theory.

Everything you said is possible, and would make a lot of sense if things played out that way. I think it would be the best way to explore the truth behind Jon Snow.

Spoiler:

At the very least, Melisandre is somewhere near him. It wouldn't look very good if he gets pulled out of a lake all swollen and deformed a day later. Melisandre obviously has no clue who he really is, which makes things interesting. I imagine that it's almost like, no matter what, the pure tv audiences are going to complain if Jon is suddenly Daenerys' nephew. But for us it's okay. We have been talking about this for a while now.

Victarion hasn't really shown us much more than him being like Stannis; entitled. The arm is pretty cool though.


Why haven't we seen people afflicted by the grayscale?
 

Poonman

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They telegraphed that outcome pretty hard, but I was glad to see that Saudi motherfucker get his from the dragon whelp.

The entire episode was dripping with sweet, sweet revenge actually.
 

Taiso

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Why haven't we seen people afflicted by the grayscale?

I sort of saw the grayscale afflicting Stannis' daughter as more of a 'look how shitty Stannis' prospects are' kind of thing, than another impending threat facing the people of Westeros. But who knows? Maybe it'll have a larger effect in future installments.

I hear Martin has pitched a Tales of Dunk & Egg series to HBO. I think it would be great, myself. it would be kinda cool to see get filmed.
 

evil wasabi

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I sort of saw the grayscale afflicting Stannis' daughter as more of a 'look how shitty Stannis' prospects are' kind of thing, than another impending threat facing the people of Westeros. But who knows? Maybe it'll have a larger effect in future installments.

I hear Martin has pitched a Tales of Dunk & Egg series to HBO. I think it would be great, myself. it would be kinda cool to see get filmed.

I can see how the show doesn't need to have the grayscale at all. They can definitely work around it. I don't remember any scenes with Stannis's daughter anyways. He probably doesn't even remember he has a daughter. But the grayscale is something that we only see near the water. On Storm's Landing with Shereen, pirates, etc. That's probably why we have been spared it.

I wouldn't mind a Dunk and Egg series. May have to happen if Martin doesn't get out the next book in 3 years.
 

Taiso

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I can see how the show doesn't need to have the grayscale at all. They can definitely work around it. I don't remember any scenes with Stannis's daughter anyways. He probably doesn't even remember he has a daughter. But the grayscale is something that we only see near the water. On Storm's Landing with Shereen, pirates, etc. That's probably why we have been spared it.

I wouldn't mind a Dunk and Egg series. May have to happen if Martin doesn't get out the next book in 3 years.

I lolled at the boldfaced comment.

And regarding the publishing schedule, I heard that the paperback for ADWD is coming out in October this year, with a chapter from the next book. I also know he's posted chapters for the upcoming book for the following characters on his website:

Spoiler:
Theon and Arianne


I also know he read a Victarion chapter at some sci-fi/fantasy convention last year. So he's chipping away at it, at any rate.

Usually, if they release a paperback with a chapter from the next book, that's a good sign the next book will be out relatively soon. Optimistically, I'm hoping for next summer based on MMPB release.
 

evil wasabi

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I lolled at the boldfaced comment.

And regarding the publishing schedule, I heard that the paperback for ADWD is coming out in October this year, with a chapter from the next book. I also know he's posted chapters for the upcoming book for the following characters on his website:

Spoiler:
Theon and Arianne


I also know he read a Victarion chapter at some sci-fi/fantasy convention last year. So he's chipping away at it, at any rate.

Usually, if they release a paperback with a chapter from the next book, that's a good sign the next book will be out relatively soon. Optimistically, I'm hoping for next summer based on MMPB release.

Yeah, I read those chapters. Glad that I didn't miss any. I think those chapters were taken down. I don't know much at all about book publishing culture, but if it means the next one is coming, I'll gladly accept.

You know, when this all started, there were zombies and humans, and that was cool. Now we have dragons, wargs, greenseers, shapeshifters. I hope that it doesn't turn into something where the battle isn't between men, but between magic and shit. I'm going to side with Varys on that note.
 

Taiso

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That's kinda where it's all going, man.

Spoiler:
It hasn't happened in the books yet but I think it's going to.


Winter is Coming is a harbinger that The Wall is going to come down and whatever it's been keeping at the edges of Westeros is going to come south. Mance Rayder knows what he's talking about.

The Wall's been up for so long that people don't care anymore. They've lived fat for so long that they don't even think about it ever coming down. And when it tumbles down, it'll serve as a reminder that man's pride and avarice got in the way of him preventing it. All they were sending up there were rapers, murderers, thieves and political exiles. Society's worst. Further proof that they didn't care what was going on up there. That may as well be on the other side of the world as far as the lords and ladies are concerned. They aren't paying attention.

Oh, and:

Spoiler:
A Song of Ice And Fire is a direct reference to Jon Snow. He is the son of Raygar Targaryan (Fire) and Leanna Stark (Ice). You read it here first.
 

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I'm only reading the appropriate books after the corresponding season/s are completed. That said, a question for the book readers that hopefully doesn't spoil anything:

If Kraznys really wanted a dragon (or all of them), why not just have his Unsullied army dispose of Dani and her small khalazar and take all of her possessions? Does everyone just keep underestimating her?
 

NeoSneth

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Do they purposely end every episode with dragons now?
 

evil wasabi

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I'm only reading the appropriate books after the corresponding season/s are completed. That said, a question for the book readers that hopefully doesn't spoil anything:

If Kraznys really wanted a dragon (or all of them), why not just have his Unsullied army dispose of Dani and her small khalazar and take all of her possessions? Does everyone just keep underestimating her?

I think that the cities of Astapor, Mereen, and Qarth were all about business. Money over everything, and not so much about conquest.
 

Taiso

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I'm only reading the appropriate books after the corresponding season/s are completed. That said, a question for the book readers that hopefully doesn't spoil anything:

If Kraznys really wanted a dragon (or all of them), why not just have his Unsullied army dispose of Dani and her small khalazar and take all of her possessions? Does everyone just keep underestimating her?

If she is able to produce a dragon or three, she is probably someone of influence and power. Would you risk the wrath of people that have dragons if they suddenly surprised you with it?
 

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If she is able to produce a dragon or three, she is probably someone of influence and power. Would you risk the wrath of people that have dragons if they suddenly surprised you with it?

No, but at the same time he saw that she had only one puny ship, and a small group of Dothraki. She was seeking an army and had no money to pay for it. I would have just pegged the slave trader for a smarter man. It's like being in a drug deal, you need to have some sort of backup if you hand over the goods and the buyer tries to immediately jack you to get their money back as well.

It just feels like it's not the first time she's been seriously underestimated by her opponents on the TV show. Probably not the last.
 

Taiso

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I still see it as a completely reasonable response from Kraznys.

I also see it as highly unrealistic for him to just take something from her in the fashion that you are suggesting.

In additon to the cautionary element I already discussed, in a world filled with deadly intrigues and mysterious forms of retribution such as scorpions (called 'Manticores' in the book) in jewel boxes that spring on you suddenly:

Kraznys is selling slaves that take years and years to grow in to mature warriors. These are long term investments.

If you can't trust the guy to keep his word, and he's just going to fuck people over whenever he wants something from a potential client, I'm sure his competitors would love the business thrown their way.

Or even from the standpoint that Kraznys is the king of the entire city. He still makes his money selling slaves. Who's going to buy from him if he doesn't keep his part of the bargain? Who could ever trust him the second word spread that he murdered someone who was ready to do fair business with him and GIVE him the thing he killed them over?

Not to defend it too vigorously, but there are plenty of reasons that the scenario works just fine the way it played out.
 
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Taiso

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Dude reminds me of Jim Rome.

Who is also a douchebag.
 

Comrade Porn King Mikhail

T&#1047;h &#1071;ussia&#1048;s &#1044;re C&#1060;m
25 Year Member
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Not to defend it too vigorously, but there are plenty of reasons that the scenario works just fine the way it played out.

I can see those reasons playing out. He was too comfortable in his position. I don't know at which point he realized she was a Targaryen, but that should have been an immediate tipoff that this would not be a standard transaction looking back on the history of her house and their desire to rule.

He should have taken caution in that she might understand at least some Valyrian. Heck, I'd never speak ill in Russian in front of some American during a business deal just in case they had indeed picked it up somewhere along the way. I know that it probably was more reasonable in the book, but I was just mildly surprised because this is the first time in the TV show that I knew from the moment they met on screen what the eventual fate would be.
 
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