The Middle East Uprisings: video, links, and more

SML

NEANDERTHAL FUCKER,
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You're like stickmanloser, in that, the closest thing he could come up with approximating an argument was: "bu-bu-but it's the New Republic!" when I was giving links (not just my opinion) of when Reuter's got caught on one of their shameful fully-staged pro-Palestinian hit-pieces on Israel. And yet... I still link to Reuters newsfeed articles, full-well knowing that. Protip: if I stopped linking to any site which I had a personal difference of opinion on editorial direction, I wouldn't link to ANYONE. It's the message that matters, not the messenger.

So far, stick's half-assed attempt, is a one-up on what you've been posting. All of your responses to my arguments have been either "tl;dr" or longer, but not necessarily more articulated, variations of "Nuh-uh!" If you got links or an inside track: post em'. All else is butthurt.

Also, speaking of butthurt, what the hell's your beef with me and Iran? All I've said definitively was: that there were protests, they were put down, and not much else. There isn't much information to be had about this current wave of protests coming out of the county this time (at least, nothing I can link to, so far), so I haven't said much about Iran at all. A weird thing to get a hair up your ass about.

You still seem to have misunderstood our conversation. We weren't, or at least I wasn't, arguing about how fair the press was. The disagreement was over whether or not criticism of Israel was necessarily antisemitic.
I critiqued your apparent assertion that it was, thinking the absurdity was self-evident, but if you'd like for me to "back up" my point, here it goes:

Israel is a state.

States are entities governed by human beings.

Human beings are fallible.

The states they govern are fallible by virtue of human fallibility.

Fallible entities are valid targets for criticism.

Israel is a valid target for criticism.

To "support" your own argument, you used a non sequitur that might be formulated thus: "Criticism of Israel is antisemitic because reuters faked an article."

Reuters faking an article has nothing to do with the argument at hand. Even if it were relevant, by your own logic, it wouldn't matter how many lies in newspapers you manage to hunt down, you still would be left with the burden of proving every individual assertion made by such papers was false. Only the message is important, not the messenger. By the way, why is it impossible for you to disagree with a message without heaping insults on the messenger?

You're so wrapped up in your own narrative that it's impossible to have a discussion with you. Your interpretation of facts and arguments ensures we'll always be having two different conversations. It's like talking to wizkid about psychology.
 
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evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
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...and yet, you haven't backed up anything you've said with anything other than your word, which, of course, I'm supposed take for the unvarnished truth?

http://www.google.com/search?source...Bg&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=f8767635ef96a8c7

It's not easy for me to do your due diligence on my iphone, but since you're so stubborn about saying ignorant things like Iran's protests stemming from wikiLINKS, I guess I have no choice. And to be clear, this has been in relation to you including Iran in the list of countries that are simultaneously, or even sequentially, beginning to protest. Most importantly, this is not in regard to your postings here in this thread as a whole.

When a newspaper issues an errata, it doesn't discount its reporting throughout the paper for that day, much less its history, but just the section where it made a mistake. I have been pretty clear on this, that my beef is only over your Iran statement, but you're missing that point, because you feel so confident about everything else. And that has cause this to become something bigger - your inability to take any criticism.

In the end, you're shitting on your own thread.
 

ttooddddyy

PNG FTW,
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The military intervention in Libya was 2-3 weeks too late. The horse has now bolted.

If the momentum was kept up after the original rebel/resistance action as in neighbouring countries was allowed to happen, imho the regime would have fallen. But would have been messy :( Libya is quite different, Have never been there but a friend of mine has for several years and I have some sort of insight into the situation. I get my news from BBC and Al Jezzera (fairly impartial) and listening to my friends at the bar who have visited North Africa.

Now it is likely that the country will have to split and there will be a blood bath in the proccess.

Why do we not hit Zimbabwe ????? if the idea is protecting inocents.

It is the same old shit time after time. We never seem to learn ! Edit= Zim has no oil

BTW I am anti the Gaddafi regime.
 
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Marek

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This thread has been a great resource and I do appreciate theranthrope digging up a lot of infos.

Why'd you have to get all megalomaniacal on us, theranthrope?

First you simplify Israeli society and politics down to a Playskool™ level, then you debut your 'WORLD WAR WIKILEAKS' thesis and defend it with puerile namecalling.

Sad man.

You deconstructed my whole post and somehow omitted the fact that Egyptian youth tried to revolt 3 years back, using facebook, under extremely similar circumstances.

WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH WIKILEAKS? Please tell me.

Please?

It's like talking to wizkid about psychology.

Definitely. But theranthrope needs more graphs.
 

Lagduf

2>X
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Edit= Zim has no oil

So true and therefore terribly tragic.

The whole situation in Bahrain is as equally rotten, especially when the USA made no statement for or against the Saudi Thugs, uh troops, who rolled on in in order to restore stability (by cracking protester's heads.)

I hope the US 5th fleet is worth it.

I'm no fan of Ghaddafi but I truly hate this selective involvement of the US (and our lackeys) in certain nations who would benefit us in some way.
 
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aria

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/23/yemen-emergency-laws-protests

So Yemen just passed laws banning protests and strengthening the power of police/military to disperse people. Also pushing to suspend their constitution so that they can do all of this "legally".

I forget, have they started killing their own people by the hundreds yet there? If not, I'd expect it to happen soon.

Well, the 2nd most powerful man in the country (who is also a general) declared himself against the president, so this might not be particularly one-sided. Though with the various clans in the hinterlands, particularly up north, a good ole fashioned Yemeni Civil War could be in the cards. And trust me, they know from Civil Wars.
 

Nesagwa

Beard of Zeus,
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Well, the 2nd most powerful man in the country (who is also a general) declared himself against the president, so this might not be particularly one-sided. Though with the various clans in the hinterlands, particularly up north, a good ole fashioned Yemeni Civil War could be in the cards. And trust me, they know from Civil Wars.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703784004576220712562139244.html

Luckily it looks like a civil war probably won't happen.
 

NeoTheranthrope

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This thread has been a great resource and I do appreciate theranthrope digging up a lot of infos.

Why'd you have to get all megalomaniacal on us, theranthrope?

What the fuck are you talking about?
Um, I'm just a guy. I don't consider myself a journalist. Hell, I'm not even a "new-media" blogger-type guy. I'm a nerd posting at a nerd messageboard. I Read a lot, I post links to some of the stuff I find, and provide context and a little commentary. Does that fucking make me a reporter?

Maybe, the problem boils down to: I genuinely understand the situation better than you because I can read, and I get frustrated by those who don't or won't (although, I don't mind a little trolling...).
 
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aria

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Keeping my fingers crossed that it works out with the least violence.


Meanwhile, Syria's starting to break out. That's an odd one because they're basically like a mild Saddam-era Iraq.

Syria's long had ties to Iran. It also like to get involved with helping promote the Iranian agenda in Lebanon with Hezbollah --this is mostly a marriage of similar interests --as Syria has always been at odds with Israel over the occupied Golan Heights. By siding with Iran's group in Lebanon, they hope to destabilize their rival in Israel.

Meanwhile, the gov't of Syria itself isn't particularly Islamic --it's Baathist like Saddam's was (just not as insane). This traces to the pan-Arab nationalism that was popularized by Nasser in Egypt. Most people today don't remember, but Syria and Egypt actually were united for several year in the United Arab Republic --an attempt at a pan-Arab state based on secular nationalism (it was looking to also have North Yemen). The flag of Syria is still the old UAR flag, where the stars representing Egypt and Syria. Taking that idea forward: what happened in both countries is the nationalism turned into de facto dictatorships under Mubarak in Egypt and the Assad family in Syria. Syria, however, developed into a more oppressive government than Egypt --who's position on the Suez Canal, independent military and tourism seemed to always keep it more open.
 

aria

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This is the video and story out of Libya (Gadaffi occupied Tripoli) that's hammering home how messed up the situation is under the rule of a mad dictator. Even if the woman's story wasn't true, the reaction is the most telling thing (all the journalists have been forced to stay at this one hotel, staffed by Gaddafi agents):

The news article fleshes out a lot of what's in the video:


March 26, 2011
Libyan Woman Struggles to Tell Media of Her Rape
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

TRIPOLI, Libya — A Libyan woman burst into the hotel housing the foreign press in Tripoli on Saturday morning in an attempt to tell journalists that she had been raped and beaten by members of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s militia. After struggling for nearly an hour to resist removal by Colonel Qaddafi’s security forces, she was dragged away from the hotel screaming.

“They say that we are all Libyans and we are one people,” said the woman, who gave her name as Eman al-Obeidy, barging in during breakfast at the hotel dining room. “But look at what the Qaddafi men did to me.” She displayed a broad bruise on her face, a large scar on her upper thigh, several narrow and deep scratch marks lower on her leg, and marks from binding around her hands and feet.

She said she had been raped by 15 men. “I was tied up, and they defecated and urinated on me,” she said. “They violated my honor.”

She pleaded for friends she said were still in custody. “They are still there, they are still there,” she said. “As soon as I leave here, they are going to take me to jail.”

For the members of the foreign news media here at the invitation of the government of Colonel Qaddafi — and largely confined to the Rixos Hotel except for official outings — the episode was a reminder of the brutality of the Libyan government and the presence of its security forces even among the hotel staff. People in hotel uniforms, who just hours before had been serving coffee and clearing plates, grabbed table knives and rushed to restrain the woman and to hold back the journalists.

Ms. Obeidy said she was a native of the rebel stronghold of Benghazi who had been stopped by Qaddafi militia on the outskirts of Tripoli. After being held for about two days, she said, she had managed to escape. Wearing a black robe, a veil and slippers, she ran into the Rixos Hotel here, asking specifically to speak to the news service Reuters and The New York Times. “There is no media coverage outside,” she yelled at one point.

“They swore at me and they filmed me. I was alone. There was whiskey. I was tied up,” she told Michael Georgy of Reuters, who was able to speak with her briefly. “I am not scared of anything. I will be locked up immediately after this.” She added: “Look at my face. Look at my back.” Her other comments were captured by television cameras.

A wild scuffle began as journalists tried to interview, photograph and protect her. Several journalists were punched, kicked and knocked down by the security forces, working in tandem with people who until then had appeared to be hotel staff members. Security officials destroyed a CNN video camera and seized a device that a Financial Times reporter had used to record her testimony. A plainclothes security officer pulled out a revolver.

Two members of the hotel staff grabbed table knives to threaten Ms. Obeidy and the journalists.

“Turn them around, turn them around,” a waiter shouted, trying to block the foreign news media from having access to Ms. Obeidy. A woman on the staff shouted: “Why are you doing this? You are a traitor!” and briefly put a coat over Ms. Obeidy’s head.

There was a prolonged standoff behind the hotel as the security officials apparently restrained themselves because of the presence of so many journalists, but Ms. Obeidy was ultimately forced into a white car and taken away.

“Leave me alone,” she shouted as one man tried to cover her mouth with his hand.

“They are taking me to jail,” she yelled, trying to resist the security guards, according to Reuters. “They are taking me to jail.”

Questioned about her treatment, Khalid Kaim, the deputy foreign minister, promised that she would be treated in accordance with the law.

After the episode, Musa Ibrahim, a government spokesman, said she appeared to be drunk and mentally ill. He said that the authorities were investigating the case, including the possibility that her reports of abuse were “fantasies.”

In a news conference later on Saturday, Mr. Ibrahim said that Ms. Obeidy was in the custody of Libyan police detectives who were treating her as a sane person with a credible criminal case of abduction and rape. “It is a criminal case, not a political case,” he said, promising that it would be investigated to the full extent of the law and that she would have a chance to meet again with journalists.

Charles Clover of The Financial Times, who had put himself in the way of the security forces trying to apprehend her, was put into a van and driven to the border shortly afterward. He said that the night before, he had been told to leave because of what Libyan government officials said were inaccuracies in his reports.
 

NeoTheranthrope

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Now, here's the thing I don't get...

America (and friends) is bombing the shit out of, an(other) Arab, Muslim, oil-producing country...

...and the Republicans don't like it.

Wait! Nevermind, I do get it... and the reason both disgusts and offends me.

I want to tsukkomi the whole world...
 

SPINMASTER X

I AM NOT FRENCHMAN,, I AM A HUMAN BEING!,
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Holy shit A fuckin 10's. I know exactly where those A-10's came from too, my old Squadron back in Germany. A-10's and AC-130 gunships are pure carnage with wings. The tide is definitely gonna change and it's gonna be real bloody.

I can't believe this shit. Why can't we just stay the fuck out of people's business?
 

aria

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Holy shit A fuckin 10's. I know exactly where those A-10's came from too, my old Squadron back in Germany. A-10's and AC-130 gunships are pure carnage with wings. The tide is definitely gonna change and it's gonna be real bloody.

I like to think of them as Rattlers :emb:

I can't believe this shit. Why can't we just stay the fuck out of people's business?

We tried that in Yugoslavia, it didn't end well. We tried that in Taliban Afghanistan, and they slaughtered people and ended up attacking us. Gaddafi is sort of in between --he attacked us, but like 30 years ago (and we retaliated the fuck out of him under Reagan), but he's now in his Slobodan Milosovich period. I'm liking the NATO involvement.
 

NeoTheranthrope

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I like to think of them as Rattlers :emb:

[HIGHLIGHT]COOOOBRAAAAAAAA!!![/HIGHLIGHT]



We tried that in Yugoslavia, it didn't end well. We tried that in Taliban Afghanistan, and they slaughtered people and ended up attacking us. Gaddafi is sort of in between --he attacked us, but like 30 years ago (and we retaliated the fuck out of him under Reagan), but he's now in his Slobodan Milosovich period. I'm liking the NATO involvement.

Protip: there's a reason "...to the shores of Tripoli!" is in the Hymn of the United States Marine corps.

This is actually the U.S.'s round number three in Libya. The first time was against the Barbary Pirates . The conflict led directly to the creation of both the United States Navy and the United States Marine Corps.

The U.S. has a long and proud history of intervening (*cough* attacking) Libya.

 

NeoTheranthrope

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Doing a compare-and-contrast between the Barbary wars and the current action in Libya makes for some interesting late-night reading...

For instance: It just about blew my mind that there was an USS Enterprise operating in both conflicts.
 

NeoTheranthrope

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...also, it's a refresher as to why wikipedia should never be used as a primary information-source (the clear anti-U.S. bias, blatant POV-pushing, and administrator shenanigans are appalling... even for things I agree on, like the U.S. action in Vietnam.).

It exists just as a way to point towards good information-sources. Additionally, try to remember to read the discussion-page! (When assburger-editors and/or deletionists attack, an article's talk-page can sometimes be more informative than the article itself...)
 
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galfordo

Analinguist of the Year
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Holy shit A fuckin 10's. I know exactly where those A-10's came from too, my old Squadron back in Germany. A-10's and AC-130 gunships are pure carnage with wings. The tide is definitely gonna change and it's gonna be real bloody.

I can't believe this shit. Why can't we just stay the fuck out of people's business?

well, our government apparently thinks that we're not going broke fast enough, so we need to get caught up in another war just to make sure. sweet.

i just wonder who the fuck is gonna patrol our skies when we can't afford fuel for our fighter jets

but yeah, warthogs are fucking awesome, seems like they've been kicking ass forever, and they show no signs of stopping

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/warthog.html

AMUUUUURRRRRKUH!!!!!!! FUK YEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!! :buttrock:
 

aria

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The side story of Eman al-Obeidy has become interesting drama in Libya (if you haven't seen the YouTube clip quoted below, watch it):

This is the video and story out of Libya (Gadaffi occupied Tripoli) that's hammering home how messed up the situation is under the rule of a mad dictator. Even if the woman's story wasn't true, the reaction is the most telling thing (all the journalists have been forced to stay at this one hotel, staffed by Gaddafi agents):

The news article fleshes out a lot of what's in the video:

So since this occurred the Gaddafi regime has been falling all over itself to try and seem credible --resulting in the sort of FUBAR of stories that you'd expect:

[excerpt from the NY Times]

Musa Ibrahim, a government spokesman, has cycled through a series of contradictory characterizations of Ms. Obeidy and her case. He initially suggested that she appeared drunk and may have fabricated her story, or “her fantasies.”

Later on Saturday, he said that police detectives had found her sane, sober and in good health. He called her complaints credible and said detectives were investigating them. And he said she would be offered a chance to meet again with journalists.

On Sunday, however, Mr. Ibrahim told reporters that detectives had learned she was a prostitute, with “a whole file of prostitution cases and petty theft.”

“The girl is not what she pretended to be,” he said. “This is her line of work. She has known these boys for years.”

“I can’t see anything political about her situation,” he added, “The men have been questioned, but since she is refusing the medical examination they can’t prove the rape case.” Asked at a press conference about his earlier statements, Mr. Ibrahim declined to repeat them, saying he now wanted to protect her privacy, “without talking about people’s previous crimes, their lifestyles.”

He said that she had been released to relatives in Tripoli, but that could not be confirmed.

In Benghazi, the center of the rebellion challenging Colonel Qaddafi’s four decades in power, residents held a rally supporting Ms. Obeidy. “Eman, you are not alone,” one sign read.

In Tripoli, several residents said they had heard about the episode from satellite news channels. Some said they did not believe that in Libya’s traditional culture a woman would speak so openly of a sexual crime. But others said they believed her. They pointed to her brutal treatment as an example of Colonel Qaddafi’s tight grip on the capital.

The following day things got even odder:

March 29, 2011
Militia Members Sue Woman Who Accused Them of Rape
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

TRIPOLI, Libya — In the latest turn in the case of Eman al-Obeidy, a Libyan woman apprehended by security forces for trying to tell journalists that she had been raped by members of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s militia, a government spokesman said Tuesday that the unidentified militia members she accused had filed a civil case against her.

“Oh, yeah, they have filed a case,” the spokesman, Musa Ibrahim, said. “The boys who she accused of rape are bringing a case because it is a very grave offense to accuse someone of a sexual crime.”

Journalists have been unable to learn Ms. al-Obeidy’s whereabouts since she was removed by force from the Rixos Hotel here after scuffles between security personnel, hotel staff and foreign journalists she had been trying to approach on Saturday.

Mr. Ibrahim initially described her as drunk and potentially delusional. Then, later on Saturday, he called her sober and sane. And on Sunday he termed her a prostitute and a thief.

He said that her case against the men had been dropped because she refused to submit to a medical examination, and he reiterated a promise that she would be offered a chance to speak again to the press.

The story of her treatment, covered by satellite news channels and Web sites, has riveted Libyans of all stripes. To critics of the Qaddafi government Ms. Obeidy has become the new face of its brutal tactics. Her family and tribe, based in the rebel-held east, is reportedly standing by her, bucking tradition to reject any assertion of a stain on her reputation from the alleged sexual crime. Rebels in Benghazi, the de facto rebel capital, have also held rallies to support her.

But today:
Enraged mother stands by daughter, allegedly raped by Gadhafi's men

Tobruk, Libya (CNN) -- Like everyone else, Aisha Ahmad watched the riveting drama unfold in a Tripoli hotel as a desperate woman burst into a dining room filled with journalists, sobbing, screaming, wanting the world to know she had been raped by 15 of Moammar Gadhafi's militia men.

The arresting images of how swiftly the woman, Eman al-Obeidy, 29, and the journalists were stifled stirred viewers around the world. But perhaps none more so than Ahmad.

This was her daughter. And she was enraged.

Just weeks before, Ahmad might have wept in silence. But now, with war engulfing Libya and its future hanging in the balance, Ahmad feared Gadhafi no more.

"If I were to see his face, I would strangle him," she told CNN in an interview at her modest home in the eastern coastal city of Tobruk.

This is where she raised her 10 children with her husband, a retired customs agent.

As a little girl, al-Obeidy looked out over the deep blue waters of the Mediterranean, calling on the oil tankers to carry her away to France. She loved languages, most of all French.

Ahmad recalled her daughter wanting always to be a journalist, but, discouraged by the lack of press freedoms under Gadhafi, she opted instead to study law in Tripoli and make a better life. She was living with her sister when she was, as she claimed, held against her will for two days, beaten and raped.

Ahmad said she believes her daughter's every word, despite attempts by the Gadhafi regime to discredit her.

The Libyan government first said al-Obeidy was mentally ill and drunk. They called her a prostitute.

Later, it changed its story and said al-Obeidy was sane enough to withstand legal proceedings. Libyan government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said the men accused of raping al-Obeidy are being investigated, but the suspects, in turn, have filed counter-charges for slander.

The attempt to discredit al-Obeidy as a promiscuous, un-Islamic woman ties into the idea of sexual shaming in a conservative Muslim society where it's commonly believed that a woman who has been raped has lost her honor, said Mona Eltahawy, a columnist on Arab and Muslim issues.

For a woman in such a society to come forward to claim she has been raped is no small thing.

"No one would do that unless they were raped, and especially in a conservative society," Eltawhy told CNN.

Al-Obeidy's act ended up being as significant as the discontented fruit vendor in Tunisia who set himself afire and sparked revolt in the entire region, Eltawhy said. The way al-Obeidy spoke out was unprecedented and she has already been hailed a hero on social networking sites.

Ahmad said she received a call Sunday from a man who offered her a bribe to reject al-Obeidy's claims and persuade her daughter to change her tale.

Ahmad refused. She stands by her daughter, she said. So does her entire family and tribe.

To show their support, the family held an in-absentia engagement ceremony for al-Obeidy at a mosque in Tobruk Monday. No one here thinks she has lost her honor.

The government said al-Obeidy was freed but she has not been seen publicly since she was dragged away by security men and bundled into a waiting white car outside the Rixos Hotel Saturday.

Ahmad has not heard from her daughter and challenged Gadhafi to air video of her on state television as proof of her well being.

Ahmad said she was also worried about her other daughter. No one has apparently seen her either since Saturday.

A group of lawyers and human rights activists tried to approach al-Obeidy's sister's house Monday, but were blocked by security forces. The sister's mobile phone has apparently been turned off, a source with the opposition in Tripoli told CNN.

Al-Obeidy's story raced around the world after she stormed into the Rixos Hotel as international journalists were having breakfast Saturday morning. Her face was bruised. So were her legs. She showed reporters blood on her right inner thigh.

Speaking in English, she said had been held against her will for two days and raped by 15 men.

Though her visible injuries appeared to support her claims, CNN could not independently verify al-Obeidy's story.

"Look at what Gadhafi's brigades did to me," she said. "My honor was violated by them." Al-Obeidy displayed what appeared to be rope burns on her wrists and ankles.

Government officials tried to subdue her, but she persisted. Even a member of the hotel's kitchen staff drew a knife. "Traitor!" he shouted. Another staffer tried to throw a dark tablecloth over her head.

One government official, who was there to facilitate access for journalists, pulled a pistol from his belt. Others scuffled with reporters and wrestled them to the ground in an attempt to take away their equipment. Some journalists were beaten and kicked. CNN's camera was confiscated and smashed beyond repair.

As security forces dragged her away, al-Obeidy warned: "If you don't see me tomorrow, then that's it."

Ahmad said she has not been able to stop crying. She hasn't slept or eaten.

She sees only her daughter's distress shared so publicly at a pivotal moment of her nation's history.
 
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