KOFXII impressions

Abster said:

Now quit hating on the english language just because you can understand it.

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Well said.

If most of these fools actually understood the language beyond the snippets they pick up in games and anime, they wouldn't be so enamored of the original voices. Not having complete understanding of it allows them to delude themselves into thinking it's deeper and/or better-acted than it is. Dubbing in fighting games does little more than draw attention to precisely how inane the voice samples are.

Shito said:

otaku is basically the word used to describe a product of consumerism: a more-or-less sociopath guy who really is unable to detach from pop-culture idol from his won childhood/adolescence, thus avoiding entering the proper adult world to stay floating the in golden young-age-leisure.

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In casual conversation in Japan, the word is most often used simply to refer to a loser/geek/nerd/etc. It's taken on a more specific meaning outside of Japan, though I've come to enjoy the term, "weeaboo." How it came to be, I don't know, but it's a funny-sounding word.

Deuce said:

Well said.

If most of these fools actually understood the language beyond the snippets they pick up in games and anime, they wouldn't be so enamored of the original voices. Not having complete understanding of it allows them to delude themselves into thinking it's deeper and/or better-acted than it is. Dubbing in fighting games does little more than draw attention to precisely how inane the voice samples are.

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I do speak Japanese. I do work as a dubbing director actually.

Just to let you know that, honestly speaking out of my professional and personal knowledge, Japanese voice actor are by far way way way more talented and skilled as far as Japanese animation and videogames goes. One may add that's just pretty logical also: to each his own, right? When anime and JPN games are Japanese shit, how would you expect any other people to be more skilled WITH them?

Shito said:

Just to let you know that, honestly speaking out of my professional and personal knowledge, Japanese voice actor are by far way way way more talented and skilled as far as Japanese animation and videogames goes.

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You miss my point. It's not a question of individual talent. It's about the style. Dialogue in Japanese scripted media is almost always overblown, whether it be in an anime, game, movie or TV show. Melodramatic, over-the-top, whatever term you wish to use. It's the way the Japanese like their entertainment. What, to a Western audience, largely seems overly theatrical and lacking in subtlety, is just par for the course there. Western, or at least, American audiences tend to prefer their entertainment less cartoonish and campy. I've seen hundreds, if not thousands, of examples, and never once have I seen an example where the acting is not in the same vein as your average soap opera (yes, they're just as bad over there).

If one likes the style, that's just a matter of personal taste. But Japanese voiceovers are not better solely because of the fact that they're in Japanese, nor are the actors inherently more talented.

Deuce said:

You miss my point. It's not a question of individual talent. It's about the style. Dialogue in Japanese scripted media is almost always overblown, whether it be in an anime, game, movie or TV show. Melodramatic, over-the-top, whatever term you wish to use. It's the way the Japanese like their entertainment. What, to a Western audience, largely seems overly theatrical and lacking in subtlety, is just par for the course there. Western, or at least, American audiences tend to prefer their entertainment less cartoonish and campy. I've seen hundreds, if not thousands, of examples, and never once have I seen an example where the acting is not in the same vein as your average soap opera (yes, they're just as bad over there).

If one likes the style, that's just a matter of personal taste. But Japanese voiceovers are not better solely because of the fact that they're in Japanese, nor are the actors inherently more talented.

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Eh, that's an interesting topic really. I do disagree that Japanese entertainment media dubbing is overall 'overacted' (that's the common word used to describe the style you were referring about). Such a statement from your side leads me to question about your own comprehension of Japanese, as any language is made not only of grammar and words, but of expressing tones and phonetics as well.

Apart from that, it's true some childish anime are dubbed in a way overacted style. But you know, if you're dubbing some kind of superhero ninja or whatever, delivering a final blow to a super-villain in order to save the World, it's not that you can pretend to sound like 'just the average Joe', right?

On the other hand, if you really know the Japanese language and sounds, what I can say is the Japanese voice actors are undoubtedly the best ones I've ever heard as far as expressing emotions and portraying the personality of the dubbed character, which are the very actual point of voice acting / dubbing.

That being said, please DO NOT consider the voice acting jobs of movies such as Pixar's as 'dubbing'. That's actually another story.

Finally, dubbing an anime (or a game) is not that simple. Making something clearly unreal (a drawn picture) sounding as 'real' (believable) is just not as easy as 'voice acting with a speaking style as real as possible'. That's why I say Japanese voice actors are the best WITH JAPANESE entertainment products. Better fitting, basically, and for a reason: it's first and foremost their shit.

Care to listen to the original Akumajou Dracula X -Gekka no Yasoukyoku- (that's Symphony of the Nught) original Japanese dub, and then giving a hear to both the horrible English re-dub?

Deuce said:

You miss my point. It's not a question of individual talent. It's about the style. Dialogue in Japanese scripted media is almost always overblown, whether it be in an anime, game, movie or TV show. Melodramatic, over-the-top, whatever term you wish to use. It's the way the Japanese like their entertainment. What, to a Western audience, largely seems overly theatrical and lacking in subtlety, is just par for the course there. Western, or at least, American audiences tend to prefer their entertainment less cartoonish and campy. I've seen hundreds, if not thousands, of examples, and never once have I seen an example where the acting is not in the same vein as your average soap opera (yes, they're just as bad over there).

If one likes the style, that's just a matter of personal taste. But Japanese voiceovers are not better solely because of the fact that they're in Japanese, nor are the actors inherently more talented.

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Right, that's a matter of taste and cultural differences. So one individual's opinion about it is beside the point. It's hard to argue that the quality of talent that they get to do the English dubs in these games is as good as the original.

Shito said:

Such a statement from your side leads me to question about your own comprehension of Japanese, as any language is made not only of grammar and words, but of expressing tones and phonetics as well.

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At the risk of being offensive, I must reply with... "No shit, Sherlock." Question all you like. I've dealt with the language (both in entertainment and conversation) for over a decade now, and I know of what I speak.

Japanese voice actors are undoubtedly the best ones I've ever heard as far as expressing emotions and portraying the personality of the dubbed character, which are the very actual point of voice acting / dubbing.

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As compared to what? Of course the originals are going to sound the most "natural," but that's because the dialogue in its native language. It hasn't had to go through an obfuscating layer of translation/localization, which, in the hands of a typically poor editor, preserves only the letter of the original meaning, with little-to-no regard for the spirit of the original text/speech.

That being said, please DO NOT consider the voice acting jobs of movies such as Pixar's as 'dubbing'. That's actually another story.

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Again... no shit.

Finally, dubbing an anime (or a game) is not that simple. Making something clearly unreal (a drawn picture) sounding as 'real' (believable) is just not as easy as 'voice acting with a speaking style as real as possible'.

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There's where you trip yourself up. Believability is derived from something coming off as natural, and if you're even a little familiar with actual, everyday Japanese speech, Japanese acting bears little resemblance. It's slowed down, overenunciated and full of pregnant pauses and odd emphasis where there would normally be none, were the conversation actually taking place among real people. It's not just "childish anime." Name me one example where Japanese acting is genuinely natural-sounding. Anything at all. They're not looking for "believable" so much as "entertaining." The former is not needed to accomplish the latter, but it is in order to be taken seriously by a more mature audience. Anime isn't nearly as broadly accepted in Japan as its Occidental fans would have everyone believe. Despite its popularity, it's still widely considered a niche medium, and not where one would generally go to find any kind of meaningful or artistic statement.

Care to listen to the original Akumajou Dracula X -Gekka no Yasoukyoku- (that's Symphony of the Nught) original Japanese dub, and then giving a hear to both the horrible English re-dub?

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Yes. It's typical Japanese voice acting (and yes, I heard the Japanese first, back in 1997). Theatrical and melodramatic, and nothing at all akin to conversational Japanese. The English versions are just sort of there. The original English script was actually pretty well done, for the most part, but the voices were ill-chosen. Alucard sounded like Sylvester Stallone. I have only a vague recollection of the PSP re-dub.

Deuce said:

At the risk of being offensive, I must reply with... "No shit, Sherlock." Question all you like. I've dealt with the language (both in entertainment and conversation) for over a decade now, and I know of what I speak.

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No offense take of course. On the contrary, it's nice to know about your bg with the language in order to trim our conversation.

As compared to what? Of course the originals are going to sound the most "natural," but that's because the dialogue in its native language. It hasn't had to go through an obfuscating layer of translation/localization, which, in the hands of a typically poor editor, preserves only the letter of the original meaning, with little-to-no regard for the spirit of the original text/speech.

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That's a dramatically good point of yours, ad of course I take it. That being said, during the years I found so many different Japanese shows dubbed with so many different style. Of course, those differences may actually sound quite subtle to foreign ears, which would most like hear Japanese 'just sounding Japanese', but I guess it's not your case.

You say voice-acted Japanese sounds totally different from everyday Japanese, and that's partially true. But again, please consider that not all the shows are evrydeay comedy, and having Alucard sound like your next-door neighbour would just make him un-believable, for you cannot have Alucard as a friendly neighbour.

What I mean is:

Believability is derived from something coming off as natural, and if you're even a little familiar with actual, everyday Japanese speech, Japanese acting bears little resemblance. It's slowed down, overenunciated and full of pregnant pauses and odd emphasis where there would normally be none, were the conversation actually taking place among real people.

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That's not 100% exactly, imho. For suspensions of disbelief just does not work that simple in our subconscious. Again, you cannot have a completely out-of-the-world character speaking as usual everyday conversation. Going a step further, you cannot have a hand-drawn world, all colored with almost-flat color design and populated with cartoonish character speaking as the real world. That would just not work. You would feel like the voices not being attached to the images.

Miyazaki Hayao is one of the few anime directors who really experimented in the use of 'voice talents' (particuarly professional actors not specialized in voice-acting) as for anime dubbing. And while I personally love the result, that is always questionable according to so many.

It's not just "childish anime." Name me one example where Japanese acting is genuinely natural-sounding. Anything at all. They're not looking for "believable" so much as "entertaining." The former is not needed to accomplish the latter, but it is in order to be taken seriously by a more mature audience.

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Mmmh, I may remember some roles in some Studio Ghibli movie actually played by person totally unrelated to acting as whole. One is Mei and Satsuki's father in Totoro. Or Shizuku's father in Mimi wo Sumaseba. But yet again, those were 'everyday roles'. You cannot act a very very dramatic role using an everyday voice mood.

I do agree that Japanese 'anime-dubbing' has made in the years an acting style of its own, but I disagree that's not the very best for what is born for: Japanese serial animation.

Anime isn't nearly as broadly accepted in Japan as its Occidental fans would have everyone believe. Despite its popularity, it's still widely considered a niche medium, and not where one would generally go to find any kind of meaningful or artistic statement.

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That's 100% true. And a grow-up watching anime is still considered a quite of a weirdo by common Japanese people, yes.

It's typical Japanese voice acting (and yes, I heard the Japanese first, back in 1997). Theatrical and melodramatic, and nothing at all akin to conversational Japanese. The English versions are just sort of there. The original English script was actually pretty well done, for the most part, but the voices were ill-chosen. Alucard sounded like Sylvester Stallone. I have only a vague recollection of the PSP re-dub.

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Of course you can, and should, expect a dark-gothic 1600-like immortal half-vampire being dramatic, right? Or, Count Dracula himself. Or, DEATH, I mean The Grim Reaper.

Despite that, that dub is EXTREMELY intense in the term of emotions.

The original English script was actually horrible IMHO, just the original dialogue inbetween Vald and Richter cuts something like 80% of the meaning. Not to talk about the style and the tone of the dialogues. PLus, yes, the voices were ill-chosen to say the least.

The best English dubs in games were probably produced by Sonic Team in the Saturn & Dreamcast era.

Wow, just wow. Really intelligent comments here like:

The Drizzle said:

What a fucking fag.

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Real ace comment there.


Also, go stick it Soniku. Nice of you to show your ass and start talking trash about someone, just because they have a different opinion than you.
But since you care to spout it off:
Naruto sucks, as does Dragonballz (yes, I left out the space on PURPOSE because it sucks). You couldn't pay me to watch that crap.
I have just as many American movies in my collection as I do Japanese, as well as numerous other countries.
Japanese porn sucks, and I don't read manga. And yeah, Anime isn't cartoons.
If you would like to spout off anymore useless dribble that you think you or anyone else knows about me to make yourself feel superior, take it to the war room, and send me a link after, because I will be more than happy to come and watch you make a fool of yourself, or anyone else on this subject for that matter that cares to attempt insulting me for a standard I set for myself that some people are too ignorant to understand apparently.

Soniku said:

I'm sure all jap dubs suck too, and we just don't realize it.

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Oh, I thought you knew it all Soniku? I know the answer to that, but go spend money on some Japanese releases (or at least download them), and you will find out, and possibly form your own opinion, to which you apparently have none; other than that people are stupid for having opinions other than your own. Bold statement coming from someone that posted that previous dribble.

I really don't care what anyone thinks about me being restrictive to myself because I have standards that I care to play the game like it originally was in Japan and SHOULD BE for the rest of the world. When you wake up 5 years from now and in your collection you realize that you can't stand American twats making caveman like noises on a game, or sounding like they are from the ghetto, then you might understand. Sorry, but I find products more enjoyable when they are in their original languages. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it, regardless of anyone's ignorant, homophobic and racist remarks.

I think Neo Alec said it right:

Neo Alec said:

You'd have a point if you were talking about anime nerds. However, this is about maintaining the integrity of the original game. The dubbing I've seen in fighting games recently is really bad. It has nothing to do with being a blind Japan-lover. It has everything to do with liking KOF the way it always has been, something this forum should be all for.

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If it has subs or original Japanese language, which NOW people are supposedly saying it does (funny how no one cared to bring that up before), then it's a no brainer for me to buy it.

Neo Alec said:

Take this otaku argument to a thread it belongs in.

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Well said Neo Alec. Well said.


Also, not sure if someone went and cried and whined to Shawn about the link to the image I posted for the article that was basically trashing the game, but none the less, if someone cares to see it, feel free to drop me a PM and I will be more than happy to send you a link to the image.


Now maybe people can start talking about the game again, now that we have gotten off on 'Language Argument 2009' here on the Neo forums, when the thread subject is for KOF XII, not AnimeCon.

If somebody would've said they didn't want to buy a game because of something they felt was important to them, instead of just blowing up about what somebody wants to spend there money on, I would of just took it as someone buying or not buying a game for their own reasons.

I read his comment, fully disagreed with it-- I would buy whether there were language options or not-- and felt no need to tell him what was a good or bad reason for him to buy a game. It's his money-- it's up to him.

Calling somebody names, going to the extreme of actually cutting and pasting a pic to the board just to say what you could have typed in the first place and telling someone to just buy a game/not buy a game because they can understand/not understand it is ridiculous.

who does that

Exactly.

As for typing the article, I would rather not waste my time on essentially re-printing a garbage review. I posted it more to show that the review was baseless and ignorant, which pretty much encompasses what I think about the reviewer as well now; I looked up other reviews the guy did for the magazine and they are all of the same intelligence level.

Please, preferring Japanese voice acting that usually sounds better than the worse-sounding English voice acting that's in so many games/anime does not make you an otaku.

I'm so used to the characters Japanese voices I don't see myself ever using the english option.

It wouldn't seem right.

Rade said:

I'm so used to the characters Japanese voices I don't see myself ever using the english option.

It wouldn't seem right.

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Yeah im used with the original Japanese voices so it won't bother me if they add an english dub option in KOF XII home ports..

quoth09 said:

And yeah, Anime isn't cartoons.

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HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE ART OF THE ANIME FROM GLORIOUS NIPPON BY CALLING IT A MERE "CARTOON" YOU GAIJINS MAKE ME SO ANGRY!!!! DRAGONBALLZ (SPELLED INCORRECTLY BECAUSE I WILL NOT ACKNOWLEDGE IT!) AND NARUTO ARE NOT REAL ANIMES! I ONLY WATCH SUBTITLED ANIMES IN THE ORIGINAL NIHONGO (THATS JAPANESE IN JAPANESE FOR ALL YOU UNEDUCATED GAIJINS.) YOU ARE ALL BAKAS!!!!

SURE I MAY SHOP EXCLUSIVELY AT J-LIST.COM AND SMELL OF ROTTEN POCKY AND COCA-CORA (THATS NIHONGO FOR COCA-COLA YOU FOOLS) AND I LONG TO MOVE TO AKIHABARA AND LIVE IN THE ALLEY BEHIND SUPERPOTATO, BUT I AM THE MASTER OF ALL THINGS ANIMES AND JAPAN! ^_^ AMERICAN CARTOONS ARE NOTHING COMPARED TO THE MASTERFUL ANIMES OF NIPPON SO FUCK ALL YOU GAIJIN SCUM INSULTING ME FOR ENJOYING JAPAN AND THE JAPANESE LIFESTYLE OF PEDO RAPE AND TENTACLES! NOW WHERE IS MY BENTO BOX? *scarfs down packets of ramen while wheezing heavily*

so I just got my OXM...

they gave it 6.5/10

quoth09 said:

Would be more than happy to do that, but I don't have a JP 360 and not shelling out the cost of a JP console right now to just play this game.

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Just buy the region-free version on Play-Asia... but shouldn't be necessary as both games have Japanese voice options, this game was on display for PS3 and 360 at this years Supernova in Sydney. If you're still uncertain, just get the Asia version.

Also, fuck that review. This game plays great, there's been a XII here for quite some time. The new system is easy to adapt to.

What's the release date on this?

Rade said:

What's the release date on this?

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Seriously, I can't nail it down.

Amazon says the 28th, Qore and EB Games say the 7th, and GameStop says the 20th.

Weird, since EB and GameStop are the same entity.

My local Gamestop just changed it to July 28th a couple of days ago. Buy.com also has it for the 28th as well.

Damn Delaymore. It's like my interest in this game is deflating every day.

Just release it already and send a few patches out to iron out the bugs (and add K' and Mai).

It's kind of funny how we're all waiting for the release of the new installment of a 15yo franchise, and you can feel nervous for a less-than-a-month delay on the release date.

C'mon, a couple of weeks won't kill anyone.

I really think SNK/Ignition is dropping the ball on the promotion of this game. A firm release date is nowhere to be found and they've allowed major magazines to review imcomplete copies of the game.

They really need step it up if they expect their investment to pay off.

It reminds me of the time when KOF XI kept getting delayed. I was going nuts! Anyway, I'm willing to wait this time, don't wanna expect anything too soon, otherwise I'll get disappointed like last time.