"Deepest" Fighter?

Now Loading said:

In SC1, yeah, Mina was a craptastic Kilik. But in SC2, they play so differently, I can't imagine calling them clones. On the outside, they have similar moves, but they both have many different ones. Not to mention, ALL of the moves they share, have different properties between them. Mina is more dangerous from afar than Kilik is,and is better at air comboing than Kilik(her 3B is a much better launcher, for instance). Put more time into them, and you will see.

And besides Mina, what other "clones" are in SC2? I can't think of any.

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I'm not sure about different properties, I only briefly tried Seung Mina. As for the "clones", I was mostly referring to the console version, there are none that I am aware off in the arcade.

Assasin - Yunsung
Berserker - Astaroth
Lizardman - Sophitia - Cassandra
Necrid - Everybody

Some share few moves, others share almost an entire movelist.

beelzebubble said:

becoz of blocking. blocking should be fundamentally easy and the better the player the better the patterns they come up with for breaking a block.

3-d games all make blocking low hard and blocking mid easy whereas 2-d games generally only make cross ups or overheads hard to block.

that is where the strategy of 2-d lies. i still cant block well in 3-d games despite having played them for years.....

a- no "standard" attack patterns as in 2-d games (j attack->standing or crouching attack though crouch blocking defends against both) they come either low or high at any point becoz there is no jumping and crouch blocking usually doesnt protect you against mid/high attacks in 3-d games.

b- telegraphing.. much more in 2d games.. in 3d ones the only way to know whether the attack will hit l/m/h is to learn what the initial frames of each move is... too much memorization takes away the block breaking strats and makes you memorize too much.. that isnt strategy in my book.

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PREACH it brother!


-AG

Samurai Shodown 2 gets my vote because you can get your assed rolled up by any character in the game.

beelzebubble said:

becoz of blocking. blocking should be fundamentally easy and the better the player the better the patterns they come up with for breaking a block.

3-d games all make blocking low hard and blocking mid easy whereas 2-d games generally only make cross ups or overheads hard to block.

that is where the strategy of 2-d lies. i still cant block well in 3-d games despite having played them for years.....

a- no "standard" attack patterns as in 2-d games (j attack->standing or crouching attack though crouch blocking defends against both) they come either low or high at any point becoz there is no jumping and crouch blocking usually doesnt protect you against mid/high attacks in 3-d games.

b- telegraphing.. much more in 2d games.. in 3d ones the only way to know whether the attack will hit l/m/h is to learn what the initial frames of each move is... too much memorization takes away the block breaking strats and makes you memorize too much.. that isnt strategy in my book.

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I'm having trouble making sense of your post. 3D games don't make blocking low any harder than 2D ones. All you do in Tekken is press db like in any 2D game. In VF and SC2 you press d+block button which is still insanely easy.

a - how does this make 2D games deeper? You are saying that it is easier to block attacks in 2D games because only overhead attacks can hurt the opponent whilst they are crouch blocking.

b - there is no need for frame memorisation. Intial low attacks are usually done to chip small amounts of health, and the ones which don't, lag. There's no real setups here. Low attack's which follow from a different move either come out quickly or lag. Either way 3D games are deeper since many options are open to you on stopping the incoming attack whether it be low, mid or high. Instead of just pressing db.

I must say this, BigFred has been the voice of reason with this 2d and 3d shit. I too am a 2d and 3d player and a tournament player at that, I'm not just spouting off, i have credibility, i've played numerous members here in 2d games and 1 member in 3d games so they know I can play. And Adam Gallant I have no clue why you are saying "preach it brother" for cuz Beezle's comparison of 2d and 3d is just wrong(no hard feelings). You guys honestly need to be exposed to 3d fighters for real. No more of this go into practice mode and fool around shit.

BigFred hit the nail right on the head.

If you are gonna make a comparison, don't be biased towards 1 or the other. If you don't play 3d or 2d good its best not to attempt to make a valid comparison of the 2.

1. Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike
2. Garou MOTW
3. SVC Chaos ( it just has a serious and dark appeal to me)
4. Last Blade 2
5. Samurai Shodown 2

BigFred said:

I'm not sure about different properties, I only briefly tried Seung Mina. As for the "clones", I was mostly referring to the console version, there are none that I am aware off in the arcade.

Assasin - Yunsung
Berserker - Astaroth
Lizardman - Sophitia - Cassandra
Necrid - Everybody

Some share few moves, others share almost an entire movelist.

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I don't count Lizardman, Berzerker, Assassin, Necrid (worst character design EVER BTW), or the console exclusive characters as even EXISTING. They are banned in tournaments anyway. Only Mina and Sophi are allowed.

And Cassie? She plays NOTHING like Sophie. You should give her a shot. I think she has a couple Ks and Bs that look alike to Sophie, but have very different properties. Otherwise... she isn't anything alike. For one thing, Sohpie relies on her air combos to do damage. Cassie relies on her punishing moves (especially 236B), and punishes hard.


On the whole blocking thing, it takes getting used to but, I never saw blocking in 3D games to be hard. Just different. There are other ways to defend yourself against lows in SC2 anyway. You can jump (8G) which allows you time to attack your opponent, or Parry (4G) which...okay Parrying (and all forms of Guard Impact) suck in SC2 compared to blocking. Which is why turtling is so rampant.

But in 3D games as whole, it shouldn't be too hard to get used to, with practice. I had a hard time when I first started playing 3D fighters with block buttons (Soul series, VF) but now I do it as easily as in 2D fighters. And you know, it's used the same way. I guess I never really thought of it as a foundation of strategy in 2D... but does it really add depth?

Now Loading said:

I don't count Lizardman, Berzerker, Assassin, Necrid (worst character design EVER BTW), or the console exclusive characters as even EXISTING. They are banned in tournaments anyway. Only Mina and Sophi are allowed.

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Actually this was my initial point. The arcade version has 15 original characters, 16 if you include charade. There were no clones. Then Namco decided to add Lizardman, Berserker, Assasin and Necrid to make the roster bigger. But because they were just clones they were overlooked by most. Basically there was no need for them.

I'll admit Cassandra and her sister play differently. I just compared them because of the few moves they share with Lizardman.

SPINMASTER X said:

I must say this, BigFred has been the voice of reason with this 2d and 3d shit. I too am a 2d and 3d player and a tournament player at that, I'm not just spouting off, i have credibility, i've played numerous members here in 2d games and 1 member in 3d games so they know I can play. And Adam Gallant I have no clue why you are saying "preach it brother" for cuz Beezle's comparison of 2d and 3d is just wrong(no hard feelings). You guys honestly need to be exposed to 3d fighters for real. No more of this go into practice mode and fool around shit.

BigFred hit the nail right on the head.

If you are gonna make a comparison, don't be biased towards 1 or the other. If you don't play 3d or 2d good its best not to attempt to make a valid comparison of the 2.

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2d fighters have two options:

1. jump attack
2. ground attack

with a jump attack you know you have to block standing. it telegraphs coz you see them jump.

with a ground attack it either hits low or mid/high. you block low and you are safe against both. that is your fundamental blocking skills covered. easy anyone can master it in a few days. it is pretty much the foundation of the gameplay being able to block average attacks.

3d fighters have two options usually:

1. high/mid attacks
2. low attacks.

high mid are easy due to the fact that standing blocking (button or back on the lever) is the usual stance and easily mastered. the problem is is that there is little telegraphing on lows so you either memorize/get used to what a low attack start up looks like or you have super reflexes.

making a game based on reflexes is bad imo and lacks strategy too i believe. i am a strategy player not a reflex/combo player. 2d games i can get away with it 3d i cant. the telegraphing on a jump is what makes the difference... why it is easier to block in 2d games.

beelzebubble said:

2d fighters have two options:

1. jump attack
2. ground attack

with a jump attack you know you have to block standing. it telegraphs coz you see them jump.

with a ground attack it either hits low or mid/high. you block low and you are safe against both. that is your fundamental blocking skills covered. easy anyone can master it in a few days. it is pretty much the foundation of the gameplay being able to block average attacks.

3d fighters have two options usually:

1. high/mid attacks
2. low attacks.

high mid are easy due to the fact that standing blocking (button or back on the lever) is the usual stance and easily mastered. the problem is is that there is little telegraphing on lows so you either memorize/get used to what a low attack start up looks like or you have super reflexes.

making a game based on reflexes is bad imo and lacks strategy too i believe. i am a strategy player not a reflex/combo player. 2d games i can get away with it 3d i cant. the telegraphing on a jump is what makes the difference... why it is easier to block in 2d games.

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I've been thinking a lot about this idea over the last week. Whether blocking is harder in 3d games compared to 2 games. I've been playing virtua fighter and kof 2k2 over the week with this idea in the back of my head.

I do agree with the fact that, yes, jumping in virtua fighter is not as cool as kof or street fighter and you don't get the cool cross up strategy. I think that VF makes up for it in the way you can dodge attacks in 3d.

I don't agree that blocking low attacks is hard. You can see the opponent ducking and then hitting low. I've never had a problem with it.

You can see the opponent ducking and then hitting low. I've never had a problem with it.

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thing is you dont have to necessarily duck first to do a low attack. something which doesnt really exist in 2d fighters.

often just pushing down and a button will give you a low attack and the crouch is included in the actual moves animation so you dont really see them crouch then attack.

they also have the opposite going on with lots of moves which you can only do as you are standing.

overcomplicates blocking imo taking the fun away from the gameplay is how i see it. i hate struggling with blocking something that keeps me from enjoying vf4 in the arcades.

yeah you could say my reflexes suck but i can still be a king at rb2 in the arcade or compete with the best at kof2k3 with my bad reflexes so...

strip fighter woo woo

With all this talk of depth and difficulty I have to wonder how some of you guys define "depth".

I think that depth is what you have when you've finally learned all the moves of a character. It's the the moves behind the other moves, the options for defense and offense.

Lets say we're playing VF4 and we've got a fight between Goh and Aoi. For argument's sake, let's pretend we're Aoi.
Ready.... Fight!

Ok, since Goh is standing there do we throw a punch or attempt a throw maybe some other type of move from our vast movelist. Lets go with a simple punch. What are our options provided our punch hits
1. Continue with another punch to get a PPPK or PPPDK
2.Stop and block
3. Stop and see if he's going to try and block and go for a throw
4. Dodge then continue our combo
5. Dodge then do a evade-attack
6. Stop and do an attack that will crumple
7. Continue the combo then do a evade-throw escape
8. Continue the combo then do a crouching backdash


IMO the measure of the depth of a game starts after #3. Every game allows you to attack and block but it's the extra's that define a games 'depth'... at least to me.

I can agree with the VF difficulty statement...to some degree. Yes some of the moves are very difficult to do, but that's mostly because of the risk-reward system. Then again, it also depends on the character you choose. Aside from one of Jeff's catch throws ALL of his moves are VERY easy to do. Akira on the other hand...

1 punch, 1 kick and 1 guard button. This was a recipe for disaster from the start.

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well, it the basics of most hand to hand fighting games... what were they thinking

I'm glad this thread hasn't devolved into "Tekken SUCKS", "Soul Caliber RoXX0Rs". Glad to know there is still some great minds still out there...

With all this talk of depth and difficulty I have to wonder how some of you guys define "depth".

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To me, depth doesn't necessarily mean "balanced" or "complex", it means I learn something new everytime I play the game.

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I don't know what difficulty has to do with anything. Difficulty adjusting to the game system, or difficulty of the AI? The AI means nothing to me.

Oh and Soul Calibur RoXXX0Rs.

thundr51 said:

well, it the basics of most hand to hand fighting games... what were they thinking

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What I meant was, there is only so many moves you can perform with just 2 attack buttons. Once you run out of options, you begin using directional inputs/pressing two buttons together and so on. Which I thought was the reason for the "hard to perform" attacks. I could be wrong.

If the movelist for characters continues to grow in the next installments, the new attacks will have no choice but to be "difficult to perform" attacks. Even if they look simple.

BigFred said:

What I meant was, there is only so many moves you can perform with just 2 attack buttons. Once you run out of options, you begin using directional inputs/pressing two buttons together and so on. Which I thought was the reason for the "hard to perform" attacks. I could be wrong.

If the movelist for characters continues to grow in the next installments, the new attacks will have no choice but to be "difficult to perform" attacks. Even if they look simple.

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Not necessarily, sometimes they simply replace one move with another with the same input. Nobody said every move in VF is good some are downright useless. Sometimes the VFTeam notices this and replaces the move, sometimes they don't. I guess it's about balancing things out.

Last Blade II
Samurai Spirits III
Real Bout 2
Super Street Fighter II X
Street Fighter Alpha 3

Oh man I wanna get in this conversation so bad because I'm a big Tekken & VF enthusiast.......but i'm just too damn lazy

Beelzebubble- you make some wonderful arguements about VF and blocking. Something I've never really thought about before, and I can see why you don't like it. It took me many hours of play just to stop from getting decimated by low hits in the arcade.

I'm trying to come up with good arguements for why VF is deeper than any 2d game, but I love 2d games a lot and adore KOF, Stree fighter and Guilty Gear. Its hard to really compare the games you love objectively (i cant) I feel that VF is the game that I just keep coming back to, and every time I get back into it, I discover another layer of depth. Depth is such an objective thing... you can't really concretely define it. To me it's a feel. Some games feel like they have layers and layers, and others feel really shallow. I think everyone will have their own personal feeings about it.

I think Thundr51 has a really good point. It's all about the options, theres SO much you can do in VF. (similar to MvC2, theres just A LOT of different things you and your opponent have to take into account) and it leads to some serious mind games.
VF is played just like any 2d game, you find an opening (or trick your opponent into one) and then try to take as much damage as you can.

Let's all happily write paragraphs on why the games we like are better than other peoples favorites.

O wai we ARE!!!!!

I apologize to anyone who's already said something similar, but in my opinion, how much you like a game or the length of the movelists don't matter overly much.

What creates depth is the number of viable play strategies for any given situation. Ideally, a fighting game is kind of a more complicated game of rock-paper-scissors, where any given action/move can beat some actions/moves, and be countered or beaten by others, creating balance. You have to be able to anticipate your opponent a bit and adjust your strategy. If you can only play a character in a game a certain way, that leads to lack of depth. On the other hand, if you can play the character with a variety of strats effectively (rushdown/high-low/turtling/footsies/etc.), you got some depth.

Obviously many characters in most games are more effective some ways than others, so it's kind of an overall effect thing.

CvS2

RBjakeSpecial said:

Beelzebubble- you make some wonderful arguements about VF and blocking. Something I've never really thought about before, and I can see why you don't like it. It took me many hours of play just to stop from getting decimated by low hits in the arcade.

I'm trying to come up with good arguements for why VF is deeper than any 2d game, but I love 2d games a lot and adore KOF, Stree fighter and Guilty Gear. Its hard to really compare the games you love objectively (i cant) I feel that VF is the game that I just keep coming back to, and every time I get back into it, I discover another layer of depth. Depth is such an objective thing... you can't really concretely define it. To me it's a feel. Some games feel like they have layers and layers, and others feel really shallow. I think everyone will have their own personal feeings about it.

I think Thundr51 has a really good point. It's all about the options, theres SO much you can do in VF. (similar to MvC2, theres just A LOT of different things you and your opponent have to take into account) and it leads to some serious mind games.
VF is played just like any 2d game, you find an opening (or trick your opponent into one) and then try to take as much damage as you can.

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maybe deeper isnt the word. i definitely prefer 2d fighters though becoz of the "randomness" of the h/l blocking as i described. the lack of telegraphing puts you into a guess or have lightning reflexes situation which i dont consider true strategy.

2d fighters make up for the hard to crack blocking by having: throws, overheads, hop attacks, guard crush, cross ups, etc. using these (all of which are slow or require skill to work into your tactics) is what makes the game fun for me.... trying to keep the opponent on their toes by mixing up your attack patterns to crack their defence... 3d games however always frustrate me at high levels coz my defence is weak, my reflexes too slow to properly defend making it less a game of defence cracking and more of a game of "who can deal damage the quickest....

i still think vf4 is super deep though....

beelzebubble said:

maybe deeper isnt the word. i definitely prefer 2d fighters though becoz of the "randomness" of the h/l blocking as i described. the lack of telegraphing puts you into a guess or have lightning reflexes situation which i dont consider true strategy.

3d games however always frustrate me at high levels coz my defence is weak, my reflexes too slow to properly defend making it less a game of defence cracking and more of a game of "who can deal damage the quickest....

i still think vf4 is super deep though....

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Lack of defense comes from a lack of knowledge in 3D games. Unfortunately you must know as much as possible about your opponents attacks so you can predict which way they will end. I'm guessing you only play VF 3D wise and the speed in that game is incredible. Chances are, you won't see your opponents attacks coming.

This probably doesn't apply to you but I'll list some easy defense examples anyway. Take Jacky's db+K+P,K,K,K,K in VF4. This attack is incredibly predictable and Jacky players will rarely use it because of this. The attack hits at m,m,m,h,h and it's only mix-up is db+K+P,K,K,K,d+K (m,m,m,h,l). Chances are your opponent will not perform the entire combo but when they do they will choose the db+K+P,K,K,K,d+K option 90% of the time. Either way blocking low on the last hit will cancel both options out.

A much deadlier attack with Jacky is just K,K (h,m) mixed with K,d+K(h,l). If you see the first spinning kick you pretty much have to guess what the next attack will be. As there is no lag between (m) and (l). Your opponent will 90% of the time choose the K,d+K the first time around, but if they see you block it, they will try the other. Because the attacks are spinning kicks evasive attacks like Akira's (during evade) P+K+G are out of the question. The easiest way to stop the attack is to interrupt the second spinning kick with a quick attack or tap b,b to avoid the attacks. There is little telegraphing in this move but if your opponent does this too often, you can stop the first attack by crouching and performing an attack of your choice.

This are just defense tactics to 2 moves of Jacky's movelist. 3D fighters require defense tactics to every attack an opponent has, so a good defense will take a very long time to create. If you have no opponents which play the game it's probably not worth your time.

Well to tell you the truth... The deapest fighter off all time is not 2D.

It's not made by SNK, SEGA, Namco or even CAPCOM...

It's not available as an Arcade game.

It was not proudced for the Playstation, Neo Geo, Dreamcast or Xbox.

If I were to ask some Fighting Game Guru to list every fighting game they could think of, they probably would not list it.

The deepest fighter of all time is NCW vs. NWO for the N64.

OK..... Wrestling SUCKS and most wrestling games are mindless mashing fests....

This game breaks the mold. The grapple system makes it deeper than any other 3d game.

With two good players, IT can take a minute of punches, dodges and grapples before someone lands a grapple. Then you have to choose a move.... Choose too strongng of a move and you can get reversed and thrown on your face. You have to tire your opponet out with small moves to get to the big moves.

It is soo deep in so many ways that I cannot describe..... Anyone who loves great fighting games should try this one.

It's sequals (revenge, 2000) are good but do not require the same ammount of strategy as this one.