Counter moves

Apathy Wind

Cheng's Errand Boy
Joined
Apr 12, 2001
Posts
121
When I say counters I am referring to the counter system in a game (the 'block their attack and counter attack' type - ie. parrying, just defended etc.) and not specific character counters (the 'grab their attack and counterattack' type as used by Karin, Mary etc.)

Capcom and SNK have used a number of counter systems in their games. Which systems do you like and why? Which one's do you feel were unsuccessful? Are there any other systems in other fighters you think are better?

My personal favorite is the SFA2 Alpha Counter. I know alot of people hated Alpha counters, but I think it was all round the best system. I like the fact it gives each character two counters (punch and kick) each; it allows you to cover a larger variety of attacks then a single counterstrike (something A1 was lacking). The damage they do is for the most part respectable (though too high in some cases). A3's Alpha counters are lacking in that they do almost NO damage - a reduction is fine but to nothing? I also like the fact it costs a super bar to use this counter, it forces you to use some consideration in using them. But my favorite thing about Alpha counters is that they can be reversed if anticipated. Nothing beat tricking your opponent into wasting a super level on countering your low forward only to have them open themselves up to a two-in-one'd super.

I also like the KoF 98 CD counter. It does decent damage and really puts some space between you and your opponent (giving you time to get situated). While not as costly to use as a Alpha counter (with potentially 5 super levels), it's still a great counter. Unfortunately, the 99 version does no damage making it far too costly in the three super level setup.

Inversely, I'm not a big fan of parrying. For one thing I find it difficult to surpress 10 years of fighter experience and hit forward (instead of back) when attacked. That and the lack of cost make the parry too accessible. Sure if you mess it up you get pounded, but once mastered the parry can be abused. Games between strong parriers (?) just devolve into counterfests.

Hopefully Capcom will include some type of counters into CvS2. Maybe one of Capcom's counters for their groove and one's of SNK's for their groove.
 

Black_Hayato

Cheng's Errand Boy
Joined
Apr 12, 2001
Posts
112
I'm split between the KOF98CD counter and the alpha one. The KOF one is too easy, and the apha version sometimes wiffed.

If you have 3rd strike, go to parry blocking mode. Program your opponent(ryu) to throw out fireballs repeatedly. Them work up to jump in attacks, then EX fireballs, then Ryu's fierce, RK chain, then work up to the shin hadoken. If you practice alot you'll get the timing right. The parry isn't great, but its a step up from the just defend, which is timed low risk blocking.

The best counter I've seen is the Darkstalkers guard reversal, the are reverse DP motions. And require 1/100(or 1/10 I forgot) a sec for command input. You are open to attack while doing the command, since the stick moves off the block postion.
 

A_Sombra

New Challenger
Joined
Apr 12, 2001
Posts
57
One of the less successful ones is the SS series blade catch. It worked only when unarmed for SS1 and SS2, but you could do it while armed in SS3 and 4. If unarmed, the catched deflected the strike and disarmed the opponent. Since blade clashes were common in SS1 and SS2, blade catching ought to have been an important skill... but it wasn't because it was too hard to do!

Even the Darkstalkers Guard Reversals were easier to do in terms of timing and joystick motion... and those actually did damage. And there were ES versions of guard Reversals too.
 

Apathy Wind

Cheng's Errand Boy
Joined
Apr 12, 2001
Posts
121
I can parry most jump in's, projectiles, and EX projectiles (still get eaten alive by the shin hadoken though). Trouble is, in the heat of battle it's still unnatural for me to tap forward as the hit connects. I have to actually 'think' about doing it. Ehh, I'm sure I'll get used to it.

I forgot about the DS Guard Cancel! Another good counter system. I like the fact you can ES them too. I hope they implement some counter into the new CvS; it'd help to deepen the gameplay (and I think the first game definitely needs more depth).
 

Black_Hayato

Cheng's Errand Boy
Joined
Apr 12, 2001
Posts
112
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by A_Sombra:
One of the less successful ones is the SS series blade catch. It worked only when unarmed for SS1 and SS2, but you could do it while armed in SS3 and 4. If unarmed, the catched deflected the strike and disarmed the opponent. Since blade clashes were common in SS1 and SS2, blade catching ought to have been an important skill... but it wasn't because it was too hard to do!

Even the Darkstalkers Guard Reversals were easier to do in terms of timing and joystick motion... and those actually did damage. And there were ES versions of guard Reversals too.

Your right the DS guard reverse is damaging. Especially since they are special moves, and there's no scaling of the damage. Its just that, that sys. works well for that game. You could say the same for other game's respected counter systems. After playing w/ a game's system for a while it only seems natural that that counter style could only work for that specific game.
 
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