Do you think the 32X could have done an arcade perfect NeoGeo fighting game port?

I was just thinking about this the other day. The 32X was arguably technically more powerful than the SNES (and several of the SNES NeoGeo ports aren't half bad), so, I was just daydreaming about how good a port of, say Samurai Showdown 2, with scaling, would have been on that hardware? On the other hand, DOOM on the 32X was letterboxed and SNES DOOM wasn't . . .

M said:

I was just thinking about this the other day. The 32X was arguably technically more powerful than the SNES (and several of the SNES NeoGeo ports aren't half bad), so, I was just daydreaming about how good a port of, say Samurai Showdown 2, with scaling, would have been on that hardware? On the other hand, DOOM on the 32X was letterboxed and SNES DOOM wasn't . . .

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Interesting thought. Doom on the SNES used the Super FX chip, but the technical specifications of the 32X are a significant deal more capable than any of the SNES' add-ons. It did have some very impressive super-scaler ports, like Space Harrier, which speak to the sprite pushing power and sprite scaling effects on the hardware. I think the biggest barriers to a perfect Neo port would be cartridge memory size, audio deficiencies, and the dual Hitachi processor set up which, like the Saturn, was a bit of a bear to program (from reports I've read). The 32X had potential, but like the Sega CD there were only a hand full of games that took advantage of that potential to create something truly special.

I'd wager the hardware would be up to the task on creating a playable port, but when I think of 32X 2D fighting games, only Cosmic Carnage comes to mind - but that's not exactly a high bar to clear. I'd be interested to hear the perspective of somebody more familiar with the 32X hardware.

neobuyer for sure.

It would all depend on if someone did it right, or instead did some lazy ass cash grab. I enjoyed the 32x for what it was.

Is the potential there for a good port? Absolutely. There were some fire neo ports for the time back in the day (SNES Art of Fighting comes to mind.)

Instead of a fighting game port, they probably could make a nice puzzler port easier.

yagamikun said:

Interesting thought. Doom on the SNES used the Super FX chip, but the technical specifications of the 32X are a significant deal more capable than any of the SNES' add-ons. It did have some very impressive super-scaler ports, like Space Harrier, which speak to the sprite pushing power and sprite scaling effects on the hardware. I think the biggest barriers to a perfect Neo port would be cartridge memory size, audio deficiencies, and the dual Hitachi processor set up which, like the Saturn, was a bit of a bear to program (from reports I've read). The 32X had potential, but like the Sega CD there were only a hand full of games that took advantage of that potential to create something truly special.

I'd wager the hardware would be up to the task on creating a playable port, but when I think of 32X 2D fighting games, only Cosmic Carnage comes to mind - but that's not exactly a high bar to clear. I'd be interested to hear the perspective of somebody more familiar with the 32X hardware.

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Mostly agree, although the cartridge space limitation could be overcome by using CD Audio and offloading some of the data to the CD. (MegaCD + 32x was a thing)
If used wisely, this would translate to very, very brief loading times (1-2 secs max) and the whole graphics ported over from the neo geo without having to compress/compromise quality.

The main limiting factor would be the cartridge size. 32X cartridges did not have as much memory as Neo Geo games generally had at the time. I guess Mortal Kombat II is the best comparison, but it remains to be seen if even in the right hands smooth scrolling and sprite scaling would be possible. The 32X struggled with aspects of 2D graphics leading to Pitfall the Mayan adventure only running at 30fps on the 32X.

The real limiting factor is the 32X itself. It simply can't update the entire screen with 2D graphics all by itself fast enough, the framebuffers and CPU-driven graphics can't do it without sacrificing 60fps. Take a game like Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure, it uses the 32X to draw the foreground, background and many other things which makes for a sluggish game.

Knuckles Chaotix does the opposite, it draws the foreground and background with the Genesis, sprites on the 32X.

So, to build a Neo Geo port, you'd have to do most of the graphics on the Genesis VDP which has a color limitation, but not having to draw sprites means more colors can be devoted to backgrounds, still nowhere near the level of the Neo Geo though. Sprites could be done on the 32X and with enough ROM and perhaps some extra RAM on the cartridge, you could have really nice looking sprites at least.

For an example of the above description, look at Mortal Kombat II. Sprites on the 32X, foreground and backgrounds on the Genesis.

Of all those 16-bit ports often the PC Engine ones are the best (Fatal Fury Special for sure) despite it being the least capable of the three systems. This is mostly because Hudson made those ports instead of Takara who SNK contracted to make the SFC and MD versions.

So if Sega had thought it was worth doing, they could have made a good version for 32X, no cut animation, full color. It would have been good money thrown after bad though since the 32X was enough of a pointless money wasting stupid-ass flop already. Sega of America had some of the *worst* ideas.

SignOfZeta said:

Of all those 16-bit ports often the PC Engine ones are the best (Fatal Fury Special for sure) despite it being the least capable of the three systems. This is mostly because Hudson made those ports instead of Takara who SNK contracted to make the SFC and MD versions.

So if Sega had thought it was worth doing, they could have made a good version for 32X, no cut animation, full color. It would have been good money thrown after bad though since the 32X was enough of a pointless money wasting stupid-ass flop already. Sega of America had some of the *worst* ideas.

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From what I understand, the 32X was actually much more capable of what the library presents. Like most other people have said, the limitation would be ROM size. And I don't think the 32X was necessary a terrible idea. Add-ons typically aren't good ideas, but what really sank the 32X was timing, in my opinion. It was meant as a holdover because SoJ didn't think they could get the Saturn out quickly enough. So to hold people over for a few years, they did the 32X. It turned out SoJ was able to deliver the Saturn on time, though, and when they announced that, gamers and developers said, "Why I should I support this 32X thing, then?"

SignOfZeta said:

Of all those 16-bit ports often the PC Engine ones are the best (Fatal Fury Special for sure) despite it being the least capable of the three systems. This is mostly because Hudson made those ports instead of Takara who SNK contracted to make the SFC and MD versions.

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Those are good ports, and considering the PC Engine's colors, I'm not sure I'd call it the least capable for these types of games. But those still look and play very different from the originals.

HMG said:

The real limiting factor is the 32X itself. It simply can't update the entire screen with 2D graphics all by itself fast enough, the framebuffers and CPU-driven graphics can't do it without sacrificing 60fps. Take a game like Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure, it uses the 32X to draw the foreground, background and many other things which makes for a sluggish game.

Knuckles Chaotix does the opposite, it draws the foreground and background with the Genesis, sprites on the 32X.

So, to build a Neo Geo port, you'd have to do most of the graphics on the Genesis VDP which has a color limitation, but not having to draw sprites means more colors can be devoted to backgrounds, still nowhere near the level of the Neo Geo though. Sprites could be done on the 32X and with enough ROM and perhaps some extra RAM on the cartridge, you could have really nice looking sprites at least.

For an example of the above description, look at Mortal Kombat II. Sprites on the 32X, foreground and backgrounds on the Genesis.

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Came in here to mention these limitations, glad someone else did. As a result, I think a very good port could be done, but it wouldn't be arcade perfect.

For that matter, the more limited space on 32x carts of the 90s probably would have resulted in sacrifices in the audio department, probably much less wav sample playback for music.

It also matters which era of neo geo games we're talking about. I bet fantastic versions of early 90s neogeo titles like Art of Fighting 2, Fatal Fury Special and Samurai Shodown 1 could be done on the 32x that would be way superior to the 16 bit ports, but imo there'd need to be huge sacrifices to graphics and sound to do something with a lot of varied detailed graphics, animation and sound like Fatal Fury 3, KOF 94/95, Samurai Shodown 3, etc. I think the 32x would have a heart attack trying to do later period neo games like Last Blade 1+2, KOF 96-2003, Metal Slug series, Garou MOTW, etc.

fakeXsound said:

From what I understand, the 32X was actually much more capable of what the library presents. Like most other people have said, the limitation would be ROM size. And I don't think the 32X was necessary a terrible idea. Add-ons typically aren't good ideas, but what really sank the 32X was timing, in my opinion. It was meant as a holdover because SoJ didn't think they could get the Saturn out quickly enough. So to hold people over for a few years, they did the 32X. It turned out SoJ was able to deliver the Saturn on time, though, and when they announced that, gamers and developers said, "Why I should I support this 32X thing, then?"

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The 32X is also significantly weaker than most people are lead to believe.

Watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxJAI2omTsA

fakeXsound said:

From what I understand, the 32X was actually much more capable of what the library presents. Like most other people have said, the limitation would be ROM size. And I don't think the 32X was necessary a terrible idea. Add-ons typically aren't good ideas, but what really sank the 32X was timing, in my opinion. It was meant as a holdover because SoJ didn't think they could get the Saturn out quickly enough. So to hold people over for a few years, they did the 32X. It turned out SoJ was able to deliver the Saturn on time, though, and when they announced that, gamers and developers said, "Why I should I support this 32X thing, then?"

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Most bad systems/upgrades are more powerful than retail games show. Jaguar, Supergrafx, Arcade Card, 32X, CDI. All that garbage. Them being low on power was never the issue, other far more practical things are (ie: no customers until after it’s on clearance).

The issue with the 32X/SoA is that they wanted more money but didn’t think two months down to road at what things were going to look like once those products existed. Selling a MD, a MCD, and 32X (and, technically, 32X CD!) and expecting them all to be fully successful platforms without eating each other’s lunch and irritating their customers...they were wrong. It’s impossible. There is no better version of “timing” that has parents happily buying upgrades every year or two. The excess of SoA is what eventually killed the Dreamcast and Sega as a decent company. If you remember, the Saturn itself was killed early in the US in order to “cleanse the pallet” for the DC...and then the DC was killed early to save the company from massive debt. They only knew how to launch systems...not how to steer them.

The stupidest thing NEC/Hudson ever did was making both the Supergrafx and the CDROM2. The smartest thing they did was kill the SGX as fast as possible so that the CDROM2 could succeed, which it did. SoA wasn’t this smart but they were making $$$ at the time so they were more in control. They didn’t know what Nintendo knew which is that being “late” or “weak” means you miss the hype but if you have your ish together you don’t panic but rather make money hand over fist because at this time everything is profitable, it’s all paid for. (Late Famicom, mid-period GameCube...MVS also).

I'm surprised they didn't do a King of Fighters with 3D backgrounds ala Neowave. Not a big fan of 3D backgrounds on a 2D game myself.

Not in 1994/1995.

You guys forget that besides the rom space, the 32x couldnt match the mighty 2610, couldnt go over 256 colors too.

A lot of games dont use that much color, but it would be noticeable on the color-heavier titles.

A Jaguar on the other hand could do it fine, besides the rom space.

I’ve been lead to believe the Jaguar can do anything...it just never did. That thing is the video game equivalent of the high school dropout who says he could have been first in his class if only he wanted to.

Nope, not the 32X. Forget it. Perhaps a platform with similar architecture, only not so... shitty? The Saturn! Someone should've made a Neo Geo port for Saturn...

HMG said:

The 32X is also significantly weaker than most people are lead to believe.

Watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxJAI2omTsA

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OK, fair. From the interviews I read with SoA people, it was actually pretty powerful but no one had time to learn to use it. But DF's claims seem sound. That said I don't know if they're 100% accurate, and I do have to wonder if developers could have figured out how to better utilize the MD / 32X split down the line. I was listening to the video while I worked and I think there were some contradictions regarding sprite capabilities and whatnot.

fakeXsound said:

OK, fair. From the interviews I read with SoA people, it was actually pretty powerful but no one had time to learn to use it. But DF's claims seem sound. That said I don't know if they're 100% accurate, and I do have to wonder if developers could have figured out how to better utilize the MD / 32X split down the line. I was listening to the video while I worked and I think there were some contradictions regarding sprite capabilities and whatnot.

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The dual SH2s make the 32X powerful in a CPU grunt sense, but it’s bottlenecked by the graphics having to be software driven and the slow frame buffers. If making an entirely 2D game, you still need to depend on the genesis for a lot of visual tasks if you still want 60fps performance which I’d say is pretty important for an arcade port.

A case can be made using After Burner and Space Harrier that the 32X had some good power, but those games aren’t having to do much scrolling, just scaling a lot of sprites and tiles which the 32X is good at. Scrolling an entire screen of graphics is what the 32X is not good at.

I'm awaiting bulbousbeard's long diatribe about this

HMG said:

A case can be made using After Burner and Space Harrier that the 32X had some good power, but those games aren’t having to do much scrolling, just scaling a lot of sprites and tiles which the 32X is good at. Scrolling an entire screen of graphics is what the 32X is not good at.

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Ok, cancel versus fighting then and give me some Windjammers. With perhaps some Money Puzzle Exchanger afterwards. Plus a 4-player Neo Bomberman .

It already has Mega Bomberman which is better! Windjammers, totally doable.

I think if Sega of Japan wouldnt of pretty much shit canned the 32x and let Sega of America market and do what they wanted to it we'd have been in a different world back then. It came out in 94. Imagine locking down a Samurai Shodown 2 and KoF 94 port that year. Both would have been possible but just due to the way the system works there would still be things that would have to be paired back.

Sega of Japan was busy making the Saturn (which SNK was already signed on for) and new games for it as well as new arcade games and hardware. Sega of America should have just done Sonic 4 and banked the money until the Saturn needed it instead of developing a half-system that was designed to last a year.

It’s also worth pointing out with regards to Samurai II and KOF 94 that SNK was transitioning from hiring Takara to make junk to a brief attempt at restricting games to the Neo CD which ended with...Fatal Fury 3 and KOF 95 for Saturn, excellent ports. Due to the (very short) Neo CD emphasis and the usual transitioning of the systems that ends up inadvertently shit canning many games it’s hard to say exactly where KOF ‘94 went in the flurry. You’d have to look very close at the timeline. Samurai II could have been done on 3DO but wasn’t. They also could make it for Sega CD, although likely much would be lost.

By the time the Super 32X was out, the Megadrive was dead in Japan, for a year probably, if it ever sold well at all. It would have been a puzzling and suicidal move to try to bring it back from the dead. The Saturn also came out at the same as the Super32X in the Japanese market making it super pointless.