Hardware neogeo
- Thread starter konrad
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2000
- Posts
- 2,353
Not sure I completely understand the question? By 1999 you had a base team that had created games on the hardware for nearly a decade, and when SNK went belly up so to did that level of mastery over the hardware. Well never see that level of hardware mastery again. Even NG Dev, try as they may, still can't match classic SNK.
In the case of MOTW, it's not doing anything that hadn't been done on the hardware already. It just had a massive amount of memory for only 14 characters and good art direction.
In the case of MOTW, it's not doing anything that hadn't been done on the hardware already. It just had a massive amount of memory for only 14 characters and good art direction.
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2014
- Posts
- 4,354
You can put a shit ton of ROM on your cartridges but you can't outrun the tech advances the Neo board sayed behind on, even back then (transparencies, resolution...). MOTW is as good as it gets.
Actually, I think Art of Fighting 3 (also known as Art of Loading for Neo CD users) is even better on the art direction department, I love the fluid sprite animation on that game.
Actually, I think Art of Fighting 3 (also known as Art of Loading for Neo CD users) is even better on the art direction department, I love the fluid sprite animation on that game.
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2002
- Posts
- 9,213
I'd say that too.
Slug 3, Blazing Star are absolutely beautiful. Don't get me wrong. Garou is fantastic, but there's just something with the color direction. It lacks more vibrant colors on most stages and it doesn't have anything to do with lack of power. It's just a graphical perspective thing.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2010
- Posts
- 669
I never bothered researching from a hardware perspective, but I always wondered if the Neo Geo could support additional mappers/"enhancement" chips in the cart like the SNES Super FX or Genesis SVP to pump out some extra effects. I assume the system either couldn't handle it or it wasn't cost effective to do so because I don't think that ever happened. Granted, they really did squeeze every last drop of that over 10 year old hardware, maybe they never felt particularly limited with the tech when they can just add more ROM space to the carts lol.
I agree, it doesn't compare artistically to MOTW but the scale and fluidity of the sprites in AOF3 is pretty nuts.
I agree, it doesn't compare artistically to MOTW but the scale and fluidity of the sprites in AOF3 is pretty nuts.
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2000
- Posts
- 11,982
Blazing Star has bad slowdown.
I know people don't want to bring NGDev into this discussion because their games are unlicensed and made after the console's official run concluded, but the lack of slowdown in their games is impressive.
I know people don't want to bring NGDev into this discussion because their games are unlicensed and made after the console's official run concluded, but the lack of slowdown in their games is impressive.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2011
- Posts
- 5,841
Metal slug 5 is a definite contender for technical impressiveness.
The game showcases what can be done with ADPCM-B with enough rom space, high quality (but mono) sound output.
Some of the boss fights and levels use a lot of incredible visual tricks. The super fast scrolling in Mission 1, the mission 3 boss and the final boss all come to mind.
It’s theoretically possible but probably not practical. The “SuperFX” type chip would have to be on the CHA board in the cartridge and would pretty much be tasked with pre-rendering graphics to be sent for display.
I don’t know if the 68000 on the neo geo mainboard would be needed to coordinate with the “SuperFX” chip on the CHA board. Thing is, the 68000 has no access to the CHA busses normally, you might need an interface cable between the two cartridge boards in order for a SuperFX type chip to work. It would have been extremely expensive back in the day to do all of this.
The game showcases what can be done with ADPCM-B with enough rom space, high quality (but mono) sound output.
Some of the boss fights and levels use a lot of incredible visual tricks. The super fast scrolling in Mission 1, the mission 3 boss and the final boss all come to mind.
It’s theoretically possible but probably not practical. The “SuperFX” type chip would have to be on the CHA board in the cartridge and would pretty much be tasked with pre-rendering graphics to be sent for display.
I don’t know if the 68000 on the neo geo mainboard would be needed to coordinate with the “SuperFX” chip on the CHA board. Thing is, the 68000 has no access to the CHA busses normally, you might need an interface cable between the two cartridge boards in order for a SuperFX type chip to work. It would have been extremely expensive back in the day to do all of this.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2000
- Posts
- 2,353
100% agree with AOF3 - the mo-caped animation was really impressive for a 2D game at the time. I remember being floored when it came out. Hell, I'm still impressed. Thankfully I played it on cart before CD or I might have a very different opinion of the game.
I also think Sunsoft hit it out of the ballpark with Waku Waku 7 - it looks and animates better than many late release Neo games with huge sprites and really smooth scaling. It's one of the most visually pleasing games on the hardware...if you like pastels.
oliverclaude
General Morden's Aide
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2013
- Posts
- 7,688
It is, but I bet that if SNK was making NGH titles now, then those games would also lack slowdown. I mean it's probably just a matter of advanced technologies available today and their lower cost.
I agree with AoF3. Strikers is also quite impressive. Top Hunter, too.
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2011
- Posts
- 5,841
I think it’s safe to say SNK used the same basic fighting game engine for all of their games. How else did they pump out so many games so often?
If not that, then they definitely had a base engine for each series they had, updating them a bit as needed and drawing new graphics.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2003
- Posts
- 2,857
What people are seeing in Mark of the Wolves is this highly tool driven slickness that is also seen in Rage of Dragons, Real Bout 2 and other games...more pre-rendered CG gradients, etc. Technically it’s not doing all that much other than using a lot of well drawn animation and well drawn animation isn’t something you need anything technical to do, you don’t even need the high frame count. With half its animation gone this would still look better than most 2D fighting games. Most of what’s great about this game isn’t in the code anywhere, it’s in Photoshop, good taste and raw human talent.
As nice as these late period things are though there are sacrifices. By the time you get to KOF2003 (which is very impressive) we had already sacrificed scaling backgrounds, objects, destructible barriers, mini games, the ability to KO someone’s ass right into a subway car and watch them ride away in the distance pissed as hell, etc. The characters don’t change as the match goes on (ie: loosing an item or getting beat up like in Fighters History or Art of Fighting.). The entirety of KOF 2003 is designed around the CPU limit of one of the boss stages and specifically because of the music. I can’t remember the details but I remember reading this from a dev when the game was new. They didn’t want a Fernandeath situation...
As nice as these late period things are though there are sacrifices. By the time you get to KOF2003 (which is very impressive) we had already sacrificed scaling backgrounds, objects, destructible barriers, mini games, the ability to KO someone’s ass right into a subway car and watch them ride away in the distance pissed as hell, etc. The characters don’t change as the match goes on (ie: loosing an item or getting beat up like in Fighters History or Art of Fighting.). The entirety of KOF 2003 is designed around the CPU limit of one of the boss stages and specifically because of the music. I can’t remember the details but I remember reading this from a dev when the game was new. They didn’t want a Fernandeath situation...
Missile
Another Striker
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2007
- Posts
- 311
I think a lot of slowdown back in the day was bad coding to be honest. The code for Metal Slug 2 was shocking - the way it waits an extra frame when it doesn't have to not to mention that it runs at only 30fps anyway and still has a ton of slowdown. I think the Neo Geo CPU was ultra fast for back then and people just didn't bother optimizing their algorithms because they had the mindset they didn't have to. NGDevTeam came from the Amiga coding scene, they had to optimize and carried that habit through to Neo Geo
In reference to MOTW - the guy who directed it said if they had done even one more thing to the code - it would have started to drop frames. So he said it is very highly optimized. It could well be the opponent AI that is pushing it. I don't know, but it is true early Neo Geo fighting games had very basic AI at times.
ShaolinAce
Ninja Combat Warrior
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2019
- Posts
- 528
You guys are really selling me on Art of fighting 3. I was watching woolieversus earlier in the week and he gave some props to art of fighting 3. And the game does look so good. Might aswell complete the trilogy.
Last edited:
Digmac
Leona's Therapist
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2016
- Posts
- 1,966
Watching Ryo's animation in Art of Fighting 3 is mind blowing in my opinion. I've never seen another 2D fighting game with that level of animation.
Like yagamikun said at the beginning of the thread, though, you won't find people with the mastery of the hardware that late SNK had. Even NGDev games really don't blow me away visually. I don't think any indie company could get as much out of the hardware as SNK did in the late 90s.
Like yagamikun said at the beginning of the thread, though, you won't find people with the mastery of the hardware that late SNK had. Even NGDev games really don't blow me away visually. I don't think any indie company could get as much out of the hardware as SNK did in the late 90s.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2000
- Posts
- 2,353
AOF3 feels, oddly enough, kind of like a 3D fighter because of how drawn out the animations are. It's really great and highly underrated in the modern day, imo. but it is quite different from even the first two AOF games and every other 2D fighter out there. Also, don't play it on CD.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2007
- Posts
- 3,740
As far as I know, AOF3 was the first game that really showed that the Neo Geo could do more (in terms of graphics) than people thought it could do.
It also came out before Street Fighter III, so it may have been an influence on that game, too.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2019
- Posts
- 1,161
AOF3 feels, oddly enough, kind of like a 3D fighter because of how drawn out the animations are. It's really great and highly underrated in the modern day, imo. but it is quite different from even the first two AOF games and every other 2D fighter out there. Also, don't play it on CD.
YES! I heavily agree. Compared to other 2d fighters, it has a greater sense of gravity and momentum, you press up to jump and it takes a second or two for the character to jump instead of the instantaneous jumping you'd be used to from something like KOF or street fighter. Same for most of the attacks. There is a smooth sluggishness to it that's probably down to the motion capturing they used for the game.
Basically, I think the gameplay feels a lot like Virtua Fighter 1 and 2.
Would have been interesting to see another AOF game in this style.
Last edited:
kingcuckmelon1
War Room Troll
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2017
- Posts
- 2,148
I dont like adding extra chips to carts (like they did with Paprium). If your going to make a game for old hardware, then stay fateful to the hardware, warts and all/.
Missile
Another Striker
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2007
- Posts
- 311
That was in the latest Retro Gamer magazine interview on Neo Geo. I think they said they used Photoshop to create the sky gradients in MOTW. I'm sure they said they used a 3D package to render the helicopter on Kevins stage - before putting it into pre-rendered sprite form. Also did the same for the bell on Hotaru's stage.
I'd take a Super FX style game with an extra chip. But I think before that there's a lot that can be done with SuperScalar and psuedo-3D games using sprites. That type of game wasn't really explored on Neo Geo. No need for any enhancement chips yet!
Last edited: