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Thread: How long will our neo carts last?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishamon View Post
    Flat panel technology did NOT arise from it being less expensive to manufacture than CRT; for a long time, it was far more expensive. LCD (including LED, which is a silly name because they don't actually use LEDs to create the image) offers some significant advantages over CRT, though black level and response time are not among those advantages. While I miss my CRTs in some respects, things I definitely do not miss include convergence issues, pincusioning, blooming, and burn-in.

    I do with I still had a couple of my old CRTs for retro-gaming, but sadly, I gave away my last CRT 20 years ago.
    The advantages CRT has over LCD and plasma are black levels, and the accuracy of the colors to the source material. Which, IMO, are the most important aspects of picture quality.
    The picture quality of LCD has improved over time, but OLED's are a lot better, because their black levels and colors are excellent.
    Last edited by joe8; 02-10-2020 at 08:18 AM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe8 View Post
    The advantages CRT has over LCD and plasma are black levels, and the accuracy of the colors to the source material. Which, IMO, are the most important aspects of picture quality.
    The picture quality of LCD has improved over time, but OLED's are a lot better, because their black levels and colors are excellent.
    Resolution and geometry were generally more important to me, but black levels have always been an issue with LCD, colour accuracy less-so (I've always calibrated by sets). My first LCD was actually a 40" widescreen rear projection, and the back levels were HORRIBLE, but I still loved it; pausing a DVD and seeing a perfect frame with no flicker or distortion. It also produced a very film-like image. This is back when the largest panel available was a 24" Samsung LCD television and the cost was down to only $8,999 (which is why I opted for the projection set ).

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    I just watched the mandalorian last week in 4k and that shit blew me away. Guys here talking about watching old grainy film are trippin.

    You guys are just stuck in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAZO View Post
    I just watched the mandalorian last week in 4k and that shit blew me away. Guys here talking about watching old grainy film are trippin.

    You guys are just stuck in the past.
    I did too, on a 21:9 screen, 11 feet base (I have a Sony 4k projector). It's sharp for sure, much sharper than any film could ever be (even though a 35mm film "resolution" - for the lack of a better term - is something between 8k and 12k... nobody can tell for sure). It's also colder, and somewhat flat. Sometimes producers even add fake film grain to digital pictures, that tells you how important grain is for a true cinematic feeling.

    Hey... of course if you like digital, more power to you Not gonna say you're wrong, it's a matter of taste. Movie buffs argue all the time over technical dilemmas like this one, I don't think we'll be able to solve it in an off-topic conversation in a Neo Geo forum
    Last edited by Catoblepa; 02-10-2020 at 10:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAZO View Post
    I just watched the mandalorian last week in 4k and that shit blew me away. Guys here talking about watching old grainy film are trippin.

    You guys are just stuck in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catoblepa View Post
    I did too, on a 21:9 screen, 11 feet base (I have a Sony 4k projector). It's sharp for sure, much sharper than any film could ever be (even though a 35mm film "resolution" - for the lack of a better term - is something between 8k and 12k... nobody can tell for sure). It's also colder, and somewhat flat. Sometimes producers even add fake film grain to digital pictures, that tells you how important grain is for a true cinematic feeling.

    Hey... of course if you like digital, more power to you Not gonna say you're wrong, it's a matter of taste. Movie buffs argue all the time over technical dilemmas like this one, I don't think we'll be able to solve it in an off-topic conversation in a Neo Geo forum
    I don't understand the big deal about grain, it makes such little difference and are you watching the film? or are you analysing it with an electron microscope? This trend of psychopathic self confessed '<insert interest here> buffs' who niggle over every fucking thing do my head in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lachlan View Post
    I don't understand the big deal about grain, it makes such little difference and are you watching the film? or are you analysing it with an electron microscope? This trend of psychopathic self confessed '<insert interest here> buffs' who niggle over every fucking thing do my head in.
    It's a very complex matter, but it's not a frivolous one (example: when audiophiles state that they can distinguish between a gold coated audio cable and a normal one just by listening to the music... that's psycho bullshit). Film grain is essential to the definition and natural look of the picture. It stores image information, and when you remove it, you remove detail and color depth. Of course too much grain is not a good thing (1986 Aliens used new Fuji stock that was pretty bad, and ended up looking much grainier than 1979 Alien, picture-wise). I can always tell when DNR (Digital Noise Reduction) is used, it flattens the picture and makes people look like wax statues.
    Some guys aren't bothered at all by DNR; that still doesn't mean grain or no grain is a "little" difference. Guys in a movie forum could say Neo Geo fans are psychos 'cause they want to play on real hardware instead of MAME... the fact that they can't see the difference, doesn't mean they're right. They're just not passionate enough about videogames to notice, or to care.
    Last edited by Catoblepa; 02-10-2020 at 04:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catoblepa View Post
    Guys in a movie forum could say Neo Geo fans are psychos 'cause they want to play on real hardware instead of MAME... the fact that they can't see the difference, doesn't mean they're right. They're just not passionate enough about videogames to notice, or to care.
    This is true Ed but playing on real hardware with a crt preferably is still the best way to play the Neo so far. Maybe a Neo fpga console is something we could look forward to in the future and will be the next best way to play Neo. Emultation is great but still doesn't match original hardware.

    I just can't say the same about digital music and video. I think it's leaps and bounds better than older analog media. Only reason anyone might want to revisit older media is for special features or nostalgia.

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    SNK should have used a suicide battery, so we'd all have a firm date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAZO View Post
    I just can't say the same about digital music and video. I think it's leaps and bounds better than older analog media. Only reason anyone might want to revisit older media is for special features or nostalgia.
    I respect your opinion, but I don't share it at all, Razo To me, it's just the opposite. Let's call it a day, or we'll be stuck here forever (but of course I agree on the emulation part).

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpamYouToDeath View Post
    SNK should have used a suicide battery, so we'd all have a firm date.
    Hahaha you fuckin psychopath.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

    Eproms can always be erased and re-written provided you still have the equipment to do so in the 20 or 30 years it takes for the data retention to fail. Mask roms are expected to last considerably longer, I've read estimates of a hundred years. Manufacturers basically say that to suggest it'll outlive you, and it probably will, but who knows? Game cartridges occasionally turn up today with dead mask rom chips, as time goes by the frequency of failure will shoot up as described in the wikipedia entry linked above. This used to bother me but now I don't care, because I just use Everdrives and the like.

    Electron displacement over the long term is probably what will eventually kill off mask roms. Like how erosion takes down a mountain or too much greasy food may clog a man's arteries

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    Not MVS, but Neo Geo Pocket/Color games are all stored on write-protected flash chips instead of mask ROMs. At the time, this had several advantages- SNK could recall games that didn't sell well and reflash them, and the games could save to flash, eliminating the need for including SRAM with a battery like Nintendo did on the Game Boy. The flash chips used were custom-made for SNK so there's no datasheet available, but looking at similar chips from the same manufacturers (Toshiba and Sharp) that came out around the same time as the NGPC, they typically only guarantee data retention for 20 years. The NGPC came out in 1999, so by now most of the games are close to or beyond this point. I haven't had any of my games die, but I guess it's something to keep in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAZO View Post
    I just watched the mandalorian last week in 4k and that shit blew me away. Guys here talking about watching old grainy film are trippin.

    You guys are just stuck in the past.
    Was the Mandalorian shot on film, or on a digital camera? Recent films can look good if they're shot on digital, and then projected in digital. But they still don't look like what films are supposed to look like. And there are still some aspects of the picture quality that film does better.

    If a film still has its grain, it means it probably hasn't undergone "restoration" processes which remove it. The picture loses detail/resolution, if grain is removed.
    Last edited by joe8; 02-16-2020 at 04:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe8 View Post
    But they still don't look like what films are supposed to look like.
    You mean they don't look like how you want them to look like. I think movies shot on Digital Camera look damn good.

    I don't know. It says it was captured in a digital environment. So I'm assuming they used digital cameras.

    I'm not against grain and enjoy it on older movies. They were shot with older equipment and were meant to look that way. I still recall watching movies like El Cid and Lawrence of Arabia with my pops back in the days on VHS with the grain and it had a certain appeal. It was meant to look that way.

    That being said I'm not against digital and enjoy a nice crystal clear 4k picture without grain. I'm also not against them remastering older movies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe8 View Post
    The advantages CRT has over LCD and plasma are black levels, and the accuracy of the colors to the source material. Which, IMO, are the most important aspects of picture quality.
    The picture quality of LCD has improved over time, but OLED's are a lot better, because their black levels and colors are excellent.
    Depends on what you're doing. Because of the pixel structure, OLEDs are horrific for text. Cleartype fonts look like shit on them. They might be better for movies and games though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catoblepa View Post
    I did too, on a 21:9 screen, 11 feet base (I have a Sony 4k projector). It's sharp for sure, much sharper than any film could ever be (even though a 35mm film "resolution" - for the lack of a better term - is something between 8k and 12k... nobody can tell for sure). It's also colder, and somewhat flat. Sometimes producers even add fake film grain to digital pictures, that tells you how important grain is for a true cinematic feeling.

    Hey... of course if you like digital, more power to you Not gonna say you're wrong, it's a matter of taste. Movie buffs argue all the time over technical dilemmas like this one, I don't think we'll be able to solve it in an off-topic conversation in a Neo Geo forum
    Color science has proven that you can perfectly reproduce what you'd call warmth and depth with digital cameras. So nope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAZO View Post
    This is true Ed but playing on real hardware with a crt preferably is still the best way to play the Neo so far. Maybe a Neo fpga console is something we could look forward to in the future and will be the next best way to play Neo. Emultation is great but still doesn't match original hardware.

    I just can't say the same about digital music and video. I think it's leaps and bounds better than older analog media. Only reason anyone might want to revisit older media is for special features or nostalgia.
    This is horseshit. No one here could tell the difference between real hardware and a GroovyMAME setup on a CRT. You're a lying fuck if you even try to pretend otherwise.

    The funny thing is that the vinyl weirdos actually have a better argument than the original video game hardware weirdos. Some vinyl albums legitimately do sound better simply because they were mastered better in that format than the digital format.
    Last edited by bulbousbeard; 02-16-2020 at 12:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bulbousbeard View Post
    This is horseshit. No one here could tell the difference between real hardware and a GroovyMAME setup on a CRT. You're a lying fuck if you even try to pretend otherwise.
    What's wrong with you, why are you so angry?

    Weirdo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAZO View Post
    What's wrong with you, why are you so angry?

    Weirdo.
    It's because he can't really program a metal slug that runs at 120 hz 60 fps. It's killing him inside and he feels the need to lash out. Either that or he's poor and can't afford video games. Take your pick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Panda View Post
    It's because he can't really program a metal slug that runs at 120 hz 60 fps. It's killing him inside and he feels the need to lash out. Either that or he's poor and can't afford video games. Take your pick.
    I'd say both

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    Quote Originally Posted by bulbousbeard View Post
    Depends on what you're doing. Because of the pixel structure, OLEDs are horrific for text. Cleartype fonts look like shit on them. They might be better for movies and games though.
    Oh it 'might' be better for movies and games? might? and you'd want to use one as a computer monitor right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by famicommander View Post
    I have Atari 2600 carts that were made in 1977 that still work fine.
    With that said....when they do fail....I doubt anyone will actually give a shit about these games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shackleford View Post
    With that said....when they do fail....I doubt anyone will actually give a shit about these games.
    What? Are you trying to say that no one would give a shit about E.T!? The 2600's best game?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lachlan View Post
    What? Are you trying to say that no one would give a shit about E.T!? The 2600's best game?
    No way!

    Literally the best game ever made!

    That title will truly go down in the history books.....

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