The future and AOC

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
1) Is the New Green Deal a bad idea?

2) Can people separate the idea of a new green deal from Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, and the sexual arousal and/or gag reflex she may invoke in them?

3) Does the possibility of a society with majority jobless people scare you?

4) Should fossil fuel corporations have a say in the protection of the environment?
 

lithy

Most Prominent Member of Chat
20 Year Member
1) Is the New Green Deal a bad idea?

2) Can people separate the idea of a new green deal from Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, and the sexual arousal and/or gag reflex she may invoke in them?

3) Does the possibility of a society with majority jobless people scare you?

4) Should fossil fuel corporations have a say in the protection of the environment?

1) Yes as are all methods of government market interference that involve creating artificial market inefficiencies to promote desired behaviors. Edit: To go further, the government will pick winners and losers in the market. Something that it is very bad at doing (from a market perspective, although good at doing for awarding business to the 'right' people). It also wants to put more people on the government payroll, a similar consequence of the Old New Deal and the massively expanding federal bureaucracy. More people dependent on the federal government for their paycheck means fewer people willing to contest ever further expansion. Lastly, this program will do nothing to address the underlying climate change issues because there are other massive economies that will not get on board and there are emerging economies that would rather take a step up on the world stage rather than cripple themselves under clean and renewable energy regulations. Just like the Old New Deal had no measurable effect on poverty, this is just a massive siphon of cash from the American middle class for make work and feel good projects.

2) No, and I believe this is as much her 'fault' as it is the fault of any particular individual's sexual reaction to her. She has used her celebrity status to intertwine herself with the new green deal. (No particular judgment here on if that is good or bad, but I do think that it is true that right now AOC and NGD are inseperable)

3) Yes because I think those hurt the most by 'socialist' (actually just high tax liberal) policies are those who were somewhat ahead but not wealthy before the policies were enacted. It makes their work up to that point moot and drags them back to a common median line and further disincentivizes workforce participation. I'll be the first to sign up for a universal guaranteed income and quit working. Not because I think it is good policy, but because if you're going to pay me 30k+ to sit and do nothing, I'd rather make that budget work than waste a third or more of my week at work for little additional gain. I think all of the grand claims of full automation displacing huge segments of workforce are waaaaay optimistic (same for full self-driving cars for that matter) and will not happen in my or my children's lifetime.

4) Ultimately irrelevant because fossil fuels will not go away until one of two things happen. Option A) Extraction costs get too high forcing a shift away from them (I would hope toward nuclear and hydroelectric rather than useless wind/solar) Option B) Governments tax them to a point where they are not economically viable (a stupid plan because it just makes for an inefficient market).
 
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evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
Many people already have the option to do nothing and collect over $35k from the government in total subsidies (subsidized housing, which can be very decent in the DC area, healthcare, food, etc all exceed $35k/y). They know better than to work a full time job because most of the available jobs suck, increase risk of harm (on the job on commuting through traffic), and yeah, 40 hours a week doing busy work for chump change. Why bother? You can stay home and work on a screenplay or draw a comic book, live your own dream instead of someone else's shitty dream that begins and ends with making more money. I think I read once from Huxley in BNW, but can't confirm, that man would be defined by his leisures in the future, and I feel that this would be the ideal. It is ideal in that it assumes that automation would be benevolent. It is also ideal in that the environment cannot sustain a constantly growing population of humans at current requirements. Changes will be necessary. And likely, that welfare from the government will come with strings attached. Those who can work will be paid well, and work. Those who cannot find work will be offered the option of welfare at the cost of sterilization. Those who cannot work and refuse welfare will be able to try to figure it out. Just my theory. In short, I don't think that man needs to work to live, but I don't trust humankind to allow all humans to live equally. Even in socialist societies we see social hierarchies and ceilings which cannot be smashed with mere merit, and with that, a future of automation will mean a future of advanced apartheid.

As for AOC, I believe that necessity is the mother of invention, and without creating a crisis of necessity, such as forcing companies to cut their carbon footprint, then change will never happen. It's like you can't simply move smokers in a plane to the back or front - doesn't work if the goal is to protect the people from smokers. Implementation of the NGD is unlikely for many of the reasons that you pointed out, but at this stage, mere discussion of the means of implementing and the goals is a step in the right direction. It's something that people should be more conscious of. On a radical level, we don't want more situations like the Bethpage groundwater contamination brought to you by Northrup Grumman, or the Flint water crisis thanks to Rick Snyder trying make more money off of the people.
 

SML

NEANDERTHAL FUCKER,
20 Year Member
I believe that we ultimately we will end up pursuing a free market solution to the environment, i.e., we'll exhaust our resources very efficiently, followed by a massive die-off, famine, plague, societal collapse, the rich being dragged, screaming, from their prepper silos, etc.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
So the original New Deal was a bad idea too?

Lithy is sperging again.

The new deal was the reaction to the Wild West unregulated financial (private investment) sector’s collapse.

The NGD stems from the perception that our current social economic system is non sustainable. As members of the 21st century, everything we do should be sustainable, from food production to infrastructure, and if it’s not, we should explore corrective means.

Why is that the people who have a problem with this have no problem giving tons of cash to Israel to kill Arab children, or spending American money to assist the Saudi genocide of Yemeni people? :headscratch:
 

Tripredacus

Three 6 Mafia
10 Year Member
Many people already have the option to do nothing and collect over $35k from the government in total subsidies (subsidized housing, which can be very decent in the DC area, healthcare, food, etc all exceed $35k/y). They know better than to work a full time job because most of the available jobs suck, increase risk of harm (on the job on commuting through traffic), and yeah, 40 hours a week doing busy work for chump change. Why bother? You can stay home and work on a screenplay or draw a comic book, live your own dream instead of someone else's shitty dream that begins and ends with making more money.

Keep that pipe dream in the pipe where it belongs.
Crime will go through the roof in such a society.
There is nothing to keep people occupied.

My thought on this idea always is, if everyone is living the Wall-E lifestyle, where does the money come from?
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
Keep that pipe dream in the pipe where it belongs.
Crime will go through the roof in such a society.
There is nothing to keep people occupied.

My thought on this idea always is, if everyone is living the Wall-E lifestyle, where does the money come from?

What money? put that 2500 year old pipe dream back in the pipe. It's the 21st century. Those old constructs are boring.

As the world becomes more automated, the crime you have to fear will come from the top. The crime at the bottom will be automated out of the system brutally and indiscriminately.
 

Xavier

Orochi's Acolyte
20 Year Member
WTF Lithy and but mah taxes!

Dude taxes across the board are so low. That's about the only unsustainable topic in this thread. People were complaining through all of Obama time in office about taxes but they were lower than even at the end of the dear great leader Reagans administration.

Make American great again, when was that? The 50's/60's and what was the tax rate back then? 50% or some crazy crap.

Blah blah that cars won't be automated in my lifetime. Dude are you paying attention? A decade ago Google was using self driving car to go around and get its data for maps services. An ex employee snitched them out and now somebody has to sit in the car while it drives around. Uber and Lyft have tried to drop off automated cars in major municipalities until they got outlawed very shortly afterwards. That was somewhere in the last five years. Some major conglomerate was having driverless semi's deliver freight in Europe, that got shutdown after a few days. These Tesla's pretty much drive themselves, some models more than others.

Yeah since the beginning of the industrial revolution people have been fearful of automation. Hasn't happened yet. It can right now though. Almost every job can be outsourced or automated at this point in time. A recent study by Ball State shows roughly 80% of job loss is due to automation. The company owners are just too cheap and lazy to do it right now. Anybody seen these giant self service tablets at McDonald's these days?

Yeah lets talk about societal norms about scarcity and the pride of work.

There is no scarcity problem, there's a distribution problem. For some reason we are raised in our capitalist society that the reason why we don't have something or others are without is because of scarcity and supply and demand and it's simply not the case.

Most jobs are bullshit jobs where you spend more time pretending to be doing something than actually producing, preformed by un or under qualified people who got those jobs because of friend or family networks. All done in the goal to make rich people even richer. Almost no wealth is given these days to the people who actually provide value to society. IIRC after the market crash in '09 stats showed almost 70% of new wealth in over the last decade came from the financial sectors. Things like derivatives and speculating.

I can't believe them trying to shame AOC with that video with her dancing, guess they think everybody in the parties gay if they thought it would do more damage than good. Its almost jerkoff material for me.
 

Xavier

Orochi's Acolyte
20 Year Member
Keep that pipe dream in the pipe where it belongs.
Crime will go through the roof in such a society.
There is nothing to keep people occupied.

My thought on this idea always is, if everyone is living the Wall-E lifestyle, where does the money come from?

Pretty sure most people in the gulf states have nothing to worry about, almost all work is beneath them and they have to import workers to do almost everything. On occasion they do export some terrorists though. For the most part though everybody being filthy rich hasn't caused a higher correlation of crime say compared to here where most people are dirt poor.

Hell Alaska has an oil fund and not only do citizens not pay any kind of state tax, (income,property or sales) they in fact get money back say around $2k a year. They've been trying to raid it recently though.

Anybody else notice clocks and water fountains disappearing? Want to know what time it is? You should have a cellphone. Also millennial's can't read analog watches. Need water? Buy some at the convenience store or the vending machine. It's only $2.50 at the most.

No look at people around the world, most are laid back. Most people don't have 30 year mortgages and 8 year car loans. They arn't expected to pay for 20 kinds of insurance and don't get taxed on everything to include breathing.

Think about it dude almost everything we do in our society we are expected to spend money and buy something. Politicians and people like Lithy want to shut down anything that doesn't fall into that category.

It gives everybody a bad attitude and the philosophy that even their time is more scarce that it is.

Debt is slavery.
 

Xavier

Orochi's Acolyte
20 Year Member
Also wtf.. see how this guy/people think?
What does Wall-e need to buy anyways?
Who can he give money to if he wanted to?

I'm sorry IIRC I think I only saw the first part of the movie, it's an animation about a robot who gathers up trash and organizes it and repairs or reuses it?

Ok I googled it:
WALL-E, short for Waste Allocation Load Lifter Earth-class, is the last robot left on Earth. He spends his days tidying up the planet, one piece of garbage at a time. But during 700 years, WALL-E has developed a personality, and he's more than a little lonely. Then he spots EVE (Elissa Knight), a sleek and shapely probe sent back to Earth on a scanning mission. Smitten WALL-E embarks on his greatest adventure yet when he follows EVE across the galaxy.

Yup nothing to buy or anybody left to give it to. I don't understand the example.

So since nobody is paying Wall-e for the service he provides its useless right?
 

basic

back to basics
15 Year Member
\You can stay home and work on a screenplay or draw a comic book, live your own dream instead of someone else's shitty dream that begins and ends with making more money.

I think it was brave new world...anyway, I look forward to more shitty deviantart "artists"
 

lithy

Most Prominent Member of Chat
20 Year Member
What in the actual fuck! It is going to take a while to parse all of that.

Xavier!
 

lithy

Most Prominent Member of Chat
20 Year Member
So the original New Deal was a bad idea too?

Lithy is sperging again.

It had no functional effect on poverty or unemployment. It probably prolonged the Great Depression. So if you like feelgood (people I wish were my friends) makework, then sure, it was a great idea.
 

FAT$TACKS

Not Average Joe., Not Average Homeowner., Not Aver
15 Year Member
Also wtf.. see how this guy/people think?
What does Wall-e need to buy anyways?
Who can he give money to if he wanted to?

I'm sorry IIRC I think I only saw the first part of the movie, it's an animation about a robot who gathers up trash and organizes it and repairs or reuses it?

Ok I googled it:
WALL-E, short for Waste Allocation Load Lifter Earth-class, is the last robot left on Earth. He spends his days tidying up the planet, one piece of garbage at a time. But during 700 years, WALL-E has developed a personality, and he's more than a little lonely. Then he spots EVE (Elissa Knight), a sleek and shapely probe sent back to Earth on a scanning mission. Smitten WALL-E embarks on his greatest adventure yet when he follows EVE across the galaxy.

Yup nothing to buy or anybody left to give it to. I don't understand the example.

So since nobody is paying Wall-e for the service he provides its useless right?

The plot of WALL-E doesn't mention the human population. They don't work, and only consume, also they are all obese and zip around on flying lounge chairs. Also, it's my favorite Pixar movie. It was funny when it came out because it was really taking a stab at consumer culture and Wal-Mart only stocked a very minimum amount of merchandise for it.

Also, there is some live action scenes with Fred Willard. I always enjoy seeing him in something. So that was a great surprise.




 

lithy

Most Prominent Member of Chat
20 Year Member
Ok, there is so much here, it is going to take a while but I'm going to try:

WTF Lithy and but mah taxes!

Dude taxes across the board are so low. That's about the only unsustainable topic in this thread. People were complaining through all of Obama time in office about taxes but they were lower than even at the end of the dear great leader Reagans administration.

Make American great again, when was that? The 50's/60's and what was the tax rate back then? 50% or some crazy crap.

Ok, I never once mentioned the tax rate, or MAGA. Please continue...

Blah blah that cars won't be automated in my lifetime. Dude are you paying attention? A decade ago Google was using self driving car to go around and get its data for maps services. An ex employee snitched them out and now somebody has to sit in the car while it drives around. Uber and Lyft have tried to drop off automated cars in major municipalities until they got outlawed very shortly afterwards. That was somewhere in the last five years. Some major conglomerate was having driverless semi's deliver freight in Europe, that got shutdown after a few days. These Tesla's pretty much drive themselves, some models more than others.

So you think cars will be fully autonomous (known as Level 5, which was my point, not Level 2-3 which is where we stand now). Ok, great! Let's review your evidence. First, your Google story is completely made up unless somehow the internet just never heard about it. Next, in case you weren't aware, I live in Pittsburgh, one of the major testing cities for Uber's autonomous program development. They were not outlawed here, though they did voluntarily and temporarily suspend testing after the fatal Tempe accident. Tesla's system is advanced cruise control and it would be much better if the public treated it as such. They cannot 'drive themselves'. So in short, the industry has been stuck around Level 3 for a while now and there are major challenges in both programming and infrastructure before Level 5 will be possible, and that ignores completely the resistance that many people will have to a changeover to full autonomy. As shown by the 3ish fatal accidents, tolerance for 'mistakes' will be much lower when people don't have control. Without looking it up, I think around 30,000 people die each year on our roads, but that's just the cost of doing business. Despite being much, much safer, you had people refusing to get on a 737 MAX in the last month because of a perceived safety issue, even if they put themselves at much greater risk simply driving to the airport. It is all about a human and their feeling of control. If a self-driving car makes a mistake, people may swear them off. This doesn't even talk about how liability will be handled...

Yeah since the beginning of the industrial revolution people have been fearful of automation. Hasn't happened yet. It can right now though. Almost every job can be outsourced or automated at this point in time. A recent study by Ball State shows roughly 80% of job loss is due to automation. The company owners are just too cheap and lazy to do it right now. Anybody seen these giant self service tablets at McDonald's these days?

What a load of shit. Ok, it can happen now, almost every job outsourced (not what we are talking about) or automated (ok). Cheap and lazy? lol If it saves them money they would be all over it. Self-service McDonald's kiosks are the best example you can come up with? In the past, every job that people thought would be obsolete has been replaced by several other jobs in its place. Glass blower in the late 1800s? Well glass molds did put them out of work, but now you needed techs to work on the glass machine. Stifling economic growth to 'save jobs' is always a bad idea and a long term failure.

Yeah lets talk about societal norms about scarcity and the pride of work.

There is no scarcity problem, there's a distribution problem. For some reason we are raised in our capitalist society that the reason why we don't have something or others are without is because of scarcity and supply and demand and it's simply not the case.

Most jobs are bullshit jobs where you spend more time pretending to be doing something than actually producing, preformed by un or under qualified people who got those jobs because of friend or family networks. All done in the goal to make rich people even richer. Almost no wealth is given these days to the people who actually provide value to society. IIRC after the market crash in '09 stats showed almost 70% of new wealth in over the last decade came from the financial sectors. Things like derivatives and speculating.

Again..what? So you're saying that the people who have jobs got them because of family or friends, but the only point of any job is to make the rich even richer. Ok sure, capital will always benefit disproportionately compared to labor. Otherwise there is no point to hiring people. The reason you get paid anything at work is because you create more value than you cost.

Then you say that people are un or under qualified and don't do any real work, yet no wealth is given "to the people who actually provide value to society". What does that even mean? Then you throw out derivatives and speculating, ok. Personally, I would say the government is more at fault for the income gap, but who cares anyway.

I can't believe them trying to shame AOC with that video with her dancing, guess they think everybody in the parties gay if they thought it would do more damage than good. Its almost jerkoff material for me.

Pass.

Pretty sure most people in the gulf states have nothing to worry about, almost all work is beneath them and they have to import workers to do almost everything. On occasion they do export some terrorists though. For the most part though everybody being filthy rich hasn't caused a higher correlation of crime say compared to here where most people are dirt poor.

Hell Alaska has an oil fund and not only do citizens not pay any kind of state tax, (income,property or sales) they in fact get money back say around $2k a year. They've been trying to raid it recently though.

I'm actually having trouble deciding if when you say 'Gulf States', you mean Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Oman, etc. or maybe you mean Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi. Could be both I guess.

Anybody else notice clocks and water fountains disappearing? Want to know what time it is? You should have a cellphone. Also millennial's can't read analog watches. Need water? Buy some at the convenience store or the vending machine. It's only $2.50 at the most.

This was by far my favorite part of any of these posts. What kind of old man shit is this? Where are the clocks! What about water fountains!

No look at people around the world, most are laid back. Most people don't have 30 year mortgages and 8 year car loans. They arn't expected to pay for 20 kinds of insurance and don't get taxed on everything to include breathing.

Think about it dude almost everything we do in our society we are expected to spend money and buy something. Politicians and people like Lithy want to shut down anything that doesn't fall into that category.

It gives everybody a bad attitude and the philosophy that even their time is more scarce that it is.

Debt is slavery.

Hi, my name is lithy. Maybe you don't know much about me. I have no debt. I have a whole thread on this forum about living like a cheap-ass (although it has bee a couple years since I posted to it).

I honestly don't know what your point is for this portion. Debt can be valuable but I wouldn't encourage it for most people.

Also wtf.. see how this guy/people think?
What does Wall-e need to buy anyways?
Who can he give money to if he wanted to?

I'm sorry IIRC I think I only saw the first part of the movie, it's an animation about a robot who gathers up trash and organizes it and repairs or reuses it?

Ok I googled it:
WALL-E, short for Waste Allocation Load Lifter Earth-class, is the last robot left on Earth. He spends his days tidying up the planet, one piece of garbage at a time. But during 700 years, WALL-E has developed a personality, and he's more than a little lonely. Then he spots EVE (Elissa Knight), a sleek and shapely probe sent back to Earth on a scanning mission. Smitten WALL-E embarks on his greatest adventure yet when he follows EVE across the galaxy.

Yup nothing to buy or anybody left to give it to. I don't understand the example.

So since nobody is paying Wall-e for the service he provides its useless right?

Whoosh. You should watch WALL-E, it is a great movie. Lots of emotion from minimal dialogue, although the first half of the movie is definitely better than the second half.
 
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Marek

Banned
What sort of right wing shit are you bathing in lithy?

The New Deal saved capitalism in this country. Unemployment went way down. The wpa and ccc created many worthy projects and infrastructure that stand heavily used to this day. Social security is a good thing.

You're deranged with this libtardtarian shit.
 

RAZO

Mayor of Southtown
15 Year Member
I love AOC and this Green New Deal. I hope she becomes President someday.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
What sort of right wing shit are you bathing in lithy?

The New Deal saved capitalism in this country. Unemployment went way down. The wpa and ccc created many worthy projects and infrastructure that stand heavily used to this day. Social security is a good thing.

You're deranged with this libtardtarian shit.

Would FDR's new deal have worked without the involvement in two wars (aka WW2)?
 

Xavier

Orochi's Acolyte
20 Year Member
Food waste? You're all over the place.

We were talking about scarcity, I said there's currently no scarcity problem there's a distribution problem. i thought about food as an example then looked up stats.

If you aren't appalled by those numbers then somethings wrong with you.

I also linked some stories about autonomous cars to show you they've been able to drive themselves for the last decade, must less in your lifetime.
 

LoneSage

A Broken Man
20 Year Member
I dunno, the wartime economy really helped the US and the victories cemented our standing into world hegemony.

That's putting it lightly. WWII is the best thing to happen to America. We came out of it a superpower.
 
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