Metroid or Metroidvania?

Gaston

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I actually don't think this is the truth. I think a lot of games/game designers have grand overarching design concepts/statements that never get fully realized due to numerous reasons (lack of time, funding, commitment, talent, scope, etc.) and end up falling far short.

The fact that Super Metroid does conceptually meet the aspirations of a (posited) grand design document makes it all the more special.

I fired the game up last night on my Everdrive due to this thread with these ideas in mind and maybe I am reading back into the game but it was great to see them realized even in the short amount of time I spent with it (two hours, approx.)

O it is a great game for certain. My point was that it seems to carry a weight now that we assign to it because we are all adult now and have life experience. I think back then they just wanted to deliver a kick ass game with an awesome theme, which they delivered.
 

DevilRedeemed

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O it is a great game for certain. My point was that it seems to carry a weight now that we assign to it because we are all adult now and have life experience. I think back then they just wanted to deliver a kick ass game with an awesome theme, which they delivered.

The lowest common denominator strikes back.
 

roker

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Fact is the game was made with the teen demographic in mind.

I don't understand how this is a cutdown. Plenty of works of art made for teens and children carry depth and respect for their audience. It's when we make assumptions based on age among other things that we lose sight of the creators vision. This is very small minded and I'm not trying to gang up on you, but I think you can be more constructive rather than making random dismissive comments like this.
 
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Gaston

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I don't understand how this is a cutdown. Plenty of works of art made for teens and children carry depth and respect for their audience. It's when we make assumptions based on age among other things that we lose sight of the creators vision. This is very small minded and I'm not trying to gang up on you, but I think you can be more constructive rather than making random dismissive comments like this.

Back when super metroid was released, it was considered a great game. Nobody talked about underlying themes about loneliness, etc. 25 odd years later we have people coming up left right and center with poetry and philosophical rants about an old videogame that stem from personal, nostalgic feelings towards a game. I was a fan and still am, but as much as I love super metroid I see it for what is was back then - a killer game. Nothing more.
 
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roker

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Back when super metroid was released, it was considered a great game. Nobody talked about underlying themes about loneliness, etc. 25 odd years later we have people coming up with poetry and philosophical rants that stem from nostalgic feelings towards a game people loved. I was and am one of them, but as much as I love super metroid I see it for what is was back then - a killer game. Nothing more.

But you could easily say that about books and movies as well. Video games deserve similar respect. This wasn't some throw away cash grab. You can tell love and care went into making it.

People study and revisit all forms of art and written works as time goes by, why should Super Metroid be excluded from that?
 

Psygnosis8

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But you could easily say that about books and movies as well. Video games deserve similar respect. This wasn't some throw away cash grab. You can tell love and care went into making it.

People study and revisit all forms of art and written works as time goes by, why should Super Metroid be excluded from that?

I agree with this, and for me, Super Metroid (heck, any metroid game) does evoke all those feelings that OC is talking about. Was it what the devs intended? Tough to say. That said, an artist (and devs ARE artists) cannot plan or hold expectations about how people interpret their art. So some are going to see it as a fun 4 hour distraction. For others it will evoke all sorts of feelings and everyone can experience it differently.

Historical examples:

Casablanca was essentially designed as a quick cash-grab made in a studio that ran like a factory. People’s reaction to it was not expected, and it’s a fluke that it’s viewed as one of the greatest films of all time.

Watership Down most definitely is a haunting narrative about the horrific experience of a prey animal, as well as a metaphor for the effects of a totalitarian government/dictatorship. But when Richard Adams was asked who the intended audience was for the book, he replied that it’s for anyone who wants to read a story about rabbits.
 

opt2not

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Back when super metroid was released, it was considered a great game. Nobody talked about underlying themes about loneliness, etc. 25 odd years later we have people coming up left right and center with poetry and philosophical rants about an old videogame that stem from personal, nostalgic feelings towards a game. I was a fan and still am, but as much as I love super metroid I see it for what is was back then - a killer game. Nothing more.

I vividly remember reviewers talking about the deeper themes of this game back in the 90’s and early 2000’s. Your trivialization if this title just shows your youth and 1-dimensional surface level thinking. Plenty of reviews praise the game for its themes in loneliness, atmosphere, and continuing ties to the original Metroid. Perhaps you might be too young to remember.
Google is having a hard time giving me results if reviews passed 10 years ago, but Mobygames has a bunch of archived links of reviews from back then. I invite you to give them a read and I await your redaction.
https://www.mobygames.com/game/snes/super-metroid/mobyrank
 

DevilRedeemed

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.

Watership Down most definitely is a haunting narrative about the horrific experience of a prey animal, as well as a metaphor for the effects of a totalitarian government/dictatorship. But when Richard Adams was asked who the intended audience was for the book, he replied that it’s for anyone who wants to read a story about rabbits.
Surely it was something of a tongue in cheek answer. The lore created in the book is rich and thoroughly soulful.
 

oliverclaude

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Very dramatic and philosophical description of what is in essence a simple...

Dramatic, huh? So is the idea that everything around you is there by design. A car, a table, your booze... someone sat down and created those according to strict rules, exact measurements and purpose, i.e. a concept. Ever saw Daft Punk's video to Revolution 909?

A tomato sauce stain on a cop's white undershirt enables a raver to escape. The video flashes back to how the stain got there, starting with a single tomato growing on a field and being picked by a harvester, then showing all its way from a factory to the superette, where his grandma buys it to make pasta.

So a guy simply greases his white collar, but behind that naive front hides a multi-layered complex process. The video didn't even show half of it, like all the graduate engineers in food technology who designed how this tomato has to look like, or all the engineers who created then constructed the harvester.

It's a bottomless pit, in which you can tumble down like Alice, or not, yet, it'll still be there regardless. So you can either remain an ignorant consumer to make your life easier, or you can be aware and wonder. Both paths will lead you nowhere, but the latter isn't boring.
 

Gaston

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I vividly remember reviewers talking about the deeper themes of this game back in the 90’s and early 2000’s. Your trivialization if this title just shows your youth and 1-dimensional surface level thinking. Plenty of reviews praise the game for its themes in loneliness, atmosphere, and continuing ties to the original Metroid. Perhaps you might be too young to remember.
Google is having a hard time giving me results if reviews passed 10 years ago, but Mobygames has a bunch of archived links of reviews from back then. I invite you to give them a read and I await your redaction.
https://www.mobygames.com/game/snes/super-metroid/mobyrank

Actually, I was a teenager when Super Metroid was released in 1994 so I experienced it when it was at its most relevant. Hell, reviewers were probably all in their early 20's at best. I read a lot of reviews and MOST of them said what I'm saying now. Great game worth plenty of hours of entertainment, way to go Nintendo. Period. There were even reviews that were positive with reserve so it wasn't as universally acclaimed as we all think it was back then. It was meant as the final Metroid game so ties with part 2 were inevitable. It's only when the SNES was superseded by the next gen that people started attributing all these underlying themes to Super Metroid. There is a term for that -it's called nostalgia. In your link I have dismissed everything post 1994 because most of them those are retro-tinted rave reviews.

Dramatic, huh? So is the idea that everything around you is there by design. A car, a table, your booze... someone sat down and created those according to strict rules, exact measurements and purpose, i.e. a concept.
I haven't watched the video, I'll look it up. You can decide to find meaning in everything or you can simply accept that things are the way they are. You seem to fall in the first category, I fall in the second category. Super Metroid was a cool game, period. And it's ok that people are offended by my comment (this is a game forum after all), but I simply don't attribute the same themes/feelings to Super Metroid.
 

oliverclaude

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You can decide to find meaning in everything or you can simply accept that things are the way they are. You seem to fall in the first category, I fall in the second category. Super Metroid was a cool game, period. And it's ok that people are offended by my comment (this is a game forum after all), but I simply don't attribute the same themes/feelings to Super Metroid.

Gaston, please... there are no "categories" to begin with, it's just a phony way of grading opinions. An immodest way to discredit your discussion partner, by putting yourself into a position of knowing what things really are, while he, as a direct consequence of this self-appointed "fact", doesn't. If anything, then not your comments are offensive, your attitude is.

Besides, there's no difference between "finding meaning in everything" and "accepting that things are the way they are". The moment you described this game, you already "found meaning" in it. Metroid can be both, a reflection on Japanese culture and a simple 2D video game at the same time. Yet it seems, this variety scares you, in which case, I can't help.
 

Gaston

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The moment you described this game, you already "found meaning" in it. Metroid can be both, a reflection on Japanese culture and a simple 2D video game at the same time. Yet it seems, this variety scares you, in which case, I can't help.

I don't think you can help. We probably both played the hell out of Super Metroid yet I have never once thought about Japanese culture when I was playing. Have you?
The variety you mention doesn't scare me and everybody is entitled their opinion. Yet when I take the opposite stance to your dissertation (somewhat on purpose to make a point) on Super M's qualities people go insane because "I'm not seeing it". Opinions differ, experiences differ and I am not looking to have my opinion changed, cause it's mine.

Gaston, please... there are no "categories" to begin with, it's just a phony way of grading opinions.
I don't agree. Science for example is not an opinion that can be graded. Religion is not an opinion (to the ones involved). The result is fruitless, endless discussions about who's right and who isn't.
 
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oliverclaude

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We probably both played the hell out of Super Metroid yet I have never once thought about Japanese culture when I was playing. Have you?

That I did, was the very point of my first post in this thread. Not when I first played it, but I don't exclusively base my opinions on a time, when I was a kid. Time went on, I had further observations. Some things changed, some didn't. The usual.

...everybody is entitled their opinion. Yet when I take the opposite stance to your dissertation (somewhat on purpose to make a point) on Super M's qualities people go insane because "I'm not seeing it".

Yes, everybody is. I posted mine, you took your stance, told me it's basically much ado about nothing, I replied, how complex nothing can be. Up to this point, no one was pigeonholing. The you did and I just told you, that it's pointless: you, putting others into categories made up by yourself, like a judge, judging in a dispute that involves himself, yet claiming to be impartial. That's about it.
 

DevilRedeemed

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Dramatic, huh? So is the idea that everything around you is there by design. A car, a table, your booze... someone sat down and created those according to strict rules, exact measurements and purpose, i.e. a concept. Ever saw Daft Punk's video to Revolution 909?

A tomato sauce stain on a cop's white undershirt enables a raver to escape. The video flashes back to how the stain got there, starting with a single tomato growing on a field and being picked by a harvester, then showing all its way from a factory to the superette, where his grandma buys it to make pasta.

So a guy simply greases his white collar, but behind that naive front hides a multi-layered complex process. The video didn't even show half of it, like all the graduate engineers in food technology who designed how this tomato has to look like, or all the engineers who created then constructed the harvester.

It's a bottomless pit, in which you can tumble down like Alice, or not, yet, it'll still be there regardless. So you can either remain an ignorant consumer to make your life easier, or you can be aware and wonder. Both paths will lead you nowhere, but the latter isn't boring.

Iyour material is too good for plebs
 

Gaston

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Not when I first played it, but I don't exclusively base my opinions on a time, when I was a kid. Time went on, I had further observations.

This is pretty much the textbook definition of nostalgia. And truth be told : my stomach turns when I read sentimental odes to what is still -first and foremost- a videogame. But I'm not judging you for it, it is my personal opinion just like it's LS's that he doesn't dig the franchise.
But let's give it a rest, I don't want to argue with you cause you seem like a good guy (unlike DR who is a faggit).
 

oliverclaude

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This is pretty much the textbook definition of nostalgia. And truth be told : my stomach turns...

Nostalgia is per "textbook definition" a sentimental longing or wistful affection for a period in the past. As I understand, you mean that I'm nostalgic about the period in the past, when I played Metroid for the first time. Yet, in the post you quoted, I said, that my current opinion, why the game is not so popular (post #11), was based on a recent time, idk, maybe a year ago, when I revisited it. In the entire thread, I never even said, if I like the game or not. Tell your turning stomach to staph.

...sentimental odes to what is still -first and foremost- a videogame.

In, before SouthtownKid: first and foremost, it's a video game, written as two words not a videogame.
 

opt2not

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Actually, I was a teenager when Super Metroid was released in 1994 so I experienced it when it was at its most relevant. Hell, reviewers were probably all in their early 20's at best. I read a lot of reviews and MOST of them said what I'm saying now. Great game worth plenty of hours of entertainment, way to go Nintendo. Period. There were even reviews that were positive with reserve so it wasn't as universally acclaimed as we all think it was back then. It was meant as the final Metroid game so ties with part 2 were inevitable. It's only when the SNES was superseded by the next gen that people started attributing all these underlying themes to Super Metroid. There is a term for that -it's called nostalgia. In your link I have dismissed everything post 1994 because most of them those are retro-tinted rave reviews.
Well you did say 25-odd years later, and I showed you proof of reviews from 10-odd years later so whatever allows you to feel like more of a man is your progrative.
But your memory of reviews is flawed. I vividly remember reviews praising the game for its atmosphere, it’s themes in desolation, it’s ambiance of dispair.
Also your connotation of nostalgia is misplaced. You most likely mean “seeing things with rose-tinted glasses”.
There is a difference. But it’s cool though, some people are too 1-dimensional to understand these deeper meaning themes and can only see the surface. That’s why we have Micheal Bay movies.
 

opt2not

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Fuck I wish I could edit my spelling mistakes. Ugh this ban.
 

Gaston

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I said, that my current opinion, why the game is not so popular (post #11), was based on a recent time, idk, maybe a year ago, when I revisited it.

Interesting remarks that I purposefully didn't comment on before. But now that you mention it, let's deconstruct comment #11;

Seeking loneliness, disregarding social interaction and communication isn't exactly popular, that's why this game isn't either. Metroid just isn't likable, and that is the key to its attraction.

Where do you come up with comments like 'seeking loneliness, disregarding social interaction and communication isn't exactly popular'? It's poetic, sure but is that a universal truth that somehow encapsulates the human race's opinion on social interaction? No, it's a judgmental comment about something you perceive to be true. You're "pigeonholing" everybody and everything "who seeks loneliness and disregards social interaction" into the not-popular group.

That is not what triggered me though. No, that has to be the part after this comment: "that's why this game isn't either". Based on a perceived thruth you claim that Super M is not popular. Then, by your definition; what constitutes a "popular" game? While we're talking about pigeonholing the term 'popular' fits right in. Popular is the opposite of not popular. Black and white. Left and Right. Right and Wrong. I've got a cold, hard factual definition of popular; any game that sells more than a million copies is popular. By that definition Super M is very popular and there is no grey area that leaves room for interpretation.

Your last line is -again- very romantic and poetic but doesn't make any sense (unless you dig poetry which a lot of fags here do). Anyway, I am being a dick on purpose now because like I said before; Whenever somebody gets all gooey over a damn video game (thanks for the spelling tip, always misspelled that), I become agitated. It's a 1994 game we're talking about on a console with a teen demographic. It's not exactly Homer's Odyssey.

In the entire thread, I never even said, if I like the game or not

So, which is it? Left or right, black or white?
 
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Gaston

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y cant metroid crawl?

Good question! The morphball was the result of some programming hardship I believe. Plus the ball has some really good gameplay mechanics. Can't recall how many times I tried to use the bomb elevation to get to unseen places.
 
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