Defining Shooters (Shmups, if you will)

Gentle Ben

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So the last few days I was looking up shooters for the NES. A couple were listed that confused me, like Gun.Smoke, King's Knight, and Adventures of Dino Riki. I have all 3 of them, and while I've played Gun.Smoke, I have a hard time really thinking of it as a shooter, despite the scrolling screen, free movement on a 2D plane, and various weapons. Replace the cowboy with a plane, and make the dusty road a black background with stars, and voila, space shooter.
I checked out Dino Riki and King's Knight, and they are very similar to Gun.Smoke. But again, I have a hard time thinking of them as "shooters."

In my mind, I don't even think of things like StarFox, Space Harrier, or Soul Star as shooters, because while typical shooters have the character moving on a 2D plane (even shooters like Viewpoint), in these games the character is moving INTO the screen, and can be moved on a total of 3 axes.

So...what do you all think? Is there a community-agreed upon definition for shmups, or is it really just in the eye of the beholder?

BTW, King's Knight is a lot of fun.
 

GohanX

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I don't really care about how autists classify their games.
 

Gentle Ben

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Tried both Otomedius Excellent and Deathsmiles last night. Really enjoyed the latter, not so much Otomedius.

But even those don't feel like shooters to me.
Air Zonk? Yeah. Can't quite put my finger on the difference.
 

Gentle Ben

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Fine. All you callous, jaded bastards complain when there are no conversations going on, and then respond like this to honest attempts at conversation.
If you don't care about the thread title/subject, feel free to not comment on it! Take your insults and "I'm too important to bother with plebes" attitude to the war room. Fagits.
 

JoeAwesome

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I'll humor you, and see if you can put some rational thought in a reply: why do Otomedius Excellent and Deathsmiles not feel like shmups? Put your finger on the difference.
 

Kid Panda

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I'm not really sure how you don't classify Gun.Smoke as a shump, as it clearly is. Deathsmiles is MOST certainly a shump. Just because the person is flying or walking, doesn't mean that it's not a shmup.

Pocky and Rocky is another in this genre, it's not forced scrolling but you are still shooting things.

Aliens the arcade? It could possibly be classified as a shump but I consider it more a action game because they are walking on a horizontal plane.

Trouble shooter is a flying girl game as is Keio, and those are shmups as well.

To be quite honest, your view on these games are really not well though out.
 

GohanX

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Fine. All you callous, jaded bastards complain when there are no conversations going on, and then respond like this to honest attempts at conversation.
If you don't care about the thread title/subject, feel free to not comment on it! Take your insults and "I'm too important to bother with plebes" attitude to the war room. Fagits.

53697719.jpg
 

andsuchisdeath

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The drift I'm catching from OP's post is "If it's a person and not a ship, then it's not a shmup"?.

This view over emphasizes theme and aesthetics and neglects mechanics. Silly IMO.

Now, Kid Panda brought up Pocky and Rocky. Entries from the kikikaikai series, mercs, shock troopers, are games I personally don't classify as "shumps" do to the lack of autoscrolling. But if one were to view games through a Japanese "Shooting game" lens, those titles are very much classified as STGs as far as I understand.
 

Gentle Ben

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Tried both Otomedius Excellent and Deathsmiles last night. Really enjoyed the latter, not so much Otomedius.

But even those don't feel like shooters to me.
Air Zonk? Yeah. Can't quite put my finger on the difference.

I'll humor you, and see if you can put some rational thought in a reply: why do Otomedius Excellent and Deathsmiles not feel like shmups? Put your finger on the difference.
Feel like I already said that I couldn't really put my finger on the difference. Or were you being sarcastic? I can't even tell anymore.

Seriously, is this a conversation that has just been done to death?

Or has the war room just kind of seeped out into the whole site?
 

ChopstickSamurai

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Calm down Ben. Just pretend the cowboy in Gunsmoke is a space ship and it'll all be okay.

496fbd5b5eb5f8629fb77e3e9acba6c5.jpg
 

Gentle Ben

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If Gun.Smoke is a shoot em up, then so is Sunset Riders.
And if Sunset Riders is a shoot em up, then so is Contra.

Just asking where the line necessarily is? It's obviously a blurry one...
I WAS INTERESTED IN HEARING OTHERS' OPINIONS on it.
IF you all just want to shit all over people's honest questions, I'll just stick to the war room from now on.
 

andsuchisdeath

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If Gun.Smoke is a shoot em up, then so is Sunset Riders.
And if Sunset Riders is a shoot em up, then so is Contra.

Just asking where the line necessarily is? It's obviously a blurry one...
I WAS INTERESTED IN HEARING OTHERS' OPINIONS on it.
IF you all just want to shit all over people's honest questions, I'll just stick to the war room from now on.

ya man. Just focus on people making fun of you. That's where your answer lies.
Never mind those serious responses.

I KNOW. Maybe you could refrain from posting for a bit and READ UP ON THIS somewhere else.
 

JoeAwesome

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If Gun.Smoke is a shoot em up, then so is Sunset Riders.

No, it isn't. And it doesn't have to be.

Just asking where the line necessarily is? It's obviously a blurry one...

I'll defer to ASID's first response.

I WAS INTERESTED IN HEARING OTHERS' OPINIONS on it.
IF you all just want to shit all over people's honest questions, I'll just stick to the war room from now on.

You've heard others' opinions on it, and are ignoring it. If you just want to shit all over people's honest answers, just stick to the war room from now on. Or log out.
 

Gentle Ben

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ya man. Just focus on people making fun of you. That's where your answer lies.
Never mind those serious responses.

I KNOW. Maybe you could refrain from posting for a bit and READ UP ON THIS somewhere else.

Sure, I could definitely go read Wikipedia.
OR...I could try and have a conversation with people on a forum ABOUT VIDEO GAMES.

God, what a moron I am!
 

andsuchisdeath

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Sure, I could definitely go read Wikipedia.
OR...I could try and have a conversation with people on a forum ABOUT VIDEO GAMES.

God, what a moron I am!

I don't think anyone called you a moron, but it is rather moronic to assume that wikipedia is the only source that exists on the subject.
 

Gentle Ben

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It's cool, really. I will just stick to smartass comments and stop trying to actually contribute anything to the site.
Not really that big a deal, I am certainly entertained reading the war room posts.
Take it easy, aids.
 

andsuchisdeath

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It's cool, really. I will just stick to smartass comments and stop trying to actually contribute anything to the site.
Not really that big a deal, I am certainly entertained reading the war room posts.
Take it easy, aids.

You're not contributing, you're seeking information. Which is great.

However, you should maybe consider reevaluating your approach.
 

Kid Panda

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Man, for you to be so gentle, you sure are acting butthurt and lashing out. There's a whole forum dedicated to shmups, been around since like 1999. Unless you have some real talk about shmups other than why you don't think they are, you're only going to get smart ass replies here.
 

WoodyXP

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So...what do you all think?

Gun Smoke, King's Knight and Dino Riki are all STGs, IMO.

Is there a community-agreed upon definition for shmups, or is it really just in the eye of the beholder?

Wikipedia has a definition:

Shoot 'em up (also known as shmup or STG[1][2]) is a subgenre of the shooter genre of video games. In a shoot 'em up, the player character moves forward automatically, often in a flying vehicle such as a spacecraft or aircraft, shooting large numbers of enemies while dodging obstacles. There is no consensus as to which design elements compose a shoot 'em up. Some restrict the definition to games featuring spacecraft and certain types of character movement; others allow a broader definition including characters on foot and a variety of perspectives. Shoot 'em ups call for fast reactions and for the player to memorize levels and enemy attack patterns. "Bullet hell" games are a relatively recent subgenre that features overwhelming numbers of enemy projectiles, often in visually impressive formations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot_'em_up
 
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