IV and Bloodlines are better than Rondo of Blood

sr20det510

Geese's Limo Driver
Joined
Oct 31, 2016
Posts
1,724
From all of those games if you now decided that you wanted to play some Castlevania would you start playing SOTN?

I did not put them in any particular order, just listed my favorites.
I'd probably start play Castlevania III or Bloodlines.
 

Gaston

Mature's Make-up Artist
Joined
Jan 15, 2003
Posts
1,352
The first CV set the scene and defined Castlevania in conjunction with CV3 and Bloodlines, not by itself. If it wasn't for the NES sequels and Bloodline (and MSX Vampire Killer), CV would be nothing more than a very playable and good-looking (well, in comparison) but more or less forgotten gothic horror-themed platformer on an old 8bit console. It's like KoF, 94 set the scene of things to come but the series as a whole gets defined by more elements than just the ones from the first game.

CV IV on the SNES is a nice game. Basically I like most/all of the oldschool CVs but I think they've lost it beginning with SotN.

Are you saying you don't like SOTN??
 

Takumaji

Master Enabler
Staff member
Joined
Jul 24, 2001
Posts
19,029
Are you saying you don't like SOTN??

SotN is a good game by itself but it's not in my personal CV "canon", which contains CV, Simon's Quest, CV3, Vampire Killer MSX and Bloodlines, and that's it. Okay, maybe add Rondo to it but only on Sundays.
 

andsuchisdeath

General Morden's Aide
20 Year Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2003
Posts
7,576
My issue with IV is that they don't take advantage of the ability to whip in all the new directions. Instead of scaling the difficulty of the enemies to meet your new abilities, it just makes the game super easy. Still fun though.

Again people lamenting about the whip directions combined with a lack of difficulty.

Hey fammicommando, I know you won't respond, but when was the last time you whipped a loop 2 medusa head? huh?
 

LoneSage

A Broken Man
20 Year Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
Posts
44,681
Again people lamenting about the whip directions combined with a lack of difficulty.

Hey fammicommando, I know you won't respond, but when was the last time you whipped a loop 2 medusa head? huh?

Higher Difficulty

heart-axe-space-holy water, axe-space-space-heart, space-axe-space-space, space-heart-space-space

aids I'm playing this tomorrow because of you. I'm putting this code up for reference.
 

andsuchisdeath

General Morden's Aide
20 Year Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2003
Posts
7,576
Higher Difficulty

heart-axe-space-holy water, axe-space-space-heart, space-axe-space-space, space-heart-space-space

aids I'm playing this tomorrow because of you. I'm putting this code up for reference.

I'm really glad I have inspired you.

Full disclosure though : I have minimal experience with loop 2 because I either run out of all of my lives or I'm like "this is too hard" and stop playing.
 

Gaston

Mature's Make-up Artist
Joined
Jan 15, 2003
Posts
1,352
SotN is a good game by itself but it's not in my personal CV "canon", which contains CV, Simon's Quest, CV3, Vampire Killer MSX and Bloodlines, and that's it. Okay, maybe add Rondo to it but only on Sundays.

I fully agree in that case. Love SOtN but it feels nothing like the other games you mention. Although simon's quest is somewhat questionnable as well bc it says castlevania II on the box, but hardly feels like cv. Fond memories though.
 

90s

This is the hand that launched a thousand batches.
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Posts
1,149
I haven't played IV since high school, but from what I can remember, it is a technically solid if somewhat easy game (easy for Castlevania). I'm sure the controls, sound, and visuals are good, but it is just not as memorable a game to me. If I remember correctly, a lot of the bosses are just bigger versions of regular enemies.


After years of not playing Rondo, I finally got the chance this year and I think it is as good it has been described over the years. The music is great, the branching paths add to replayability, the two characters provide two distinct styles of play, great game. I think what puts this game over the top is the attention to detail in the presentation, including the cutscenes and little things like how the bosses have final attacks when defeated. I love how when you are fighting the bosses on stage 6 a pentagram is spinning with great music in the background.


Bloodlines I think is a special game. It is a game that keeps building; the graphics and music of each stage gets better. I was not really into the first stage, but the second stage got my attention. I was fully invested in the platforming of the leaning tower of Pisa and by the time the battle with the boss at the top of the tower rolled around, it felt like an accomplishment beating him and hearing that music. Then by the time I heard the opening to the music in the palace of Versailles I was all in on this game. Hard game, but I stuck with it and it was so much fun. I think the idea of having real worl locations in this game was a good choice. The control in this game is not as good as Rondo, but having two characters again provides different play styles, but I prefer Eric and his spear (such a great character). And of course there is the trademark Genesis blood (watching those harpees fly around with their heads cut off squirting blood). Bloodlines just feels like its own beautiful thing, but it also feels like Castlevania.

So, I think Rondo>Bloodlines>IV.
 
Last edited:

Taiso

Remembers The North,
20 Year Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2000
Posts
13,156
If there's one thing I don't like about SotN, it's that it completely changed the direction of Castlevania and turned it into a non-linear RPG-lite experience.

As a one of a kind game, I think it's excellent. I personally consider it the best game in the entire series to that point from a mechanical standpoint, player engagement and addiction. It also has the best aesthetics of the entire series to that point, from level design to character art to music.

However.

After this game, this is what Castlevania became and I'm not so certain that it was good for the series in the long run. After that, the series became more grindy, more about lootquesting and stuffquesting, minmaxing, collecting items and mechanical advancement.

It stopped being about vampire hunting and vampire killing. it stopped being about a warrior limited by his weapon options and given limited mechanics to reflect his humanity. It's one of the things I love about Berserk-its statement on the philosophical, fundamental nature of what it means to be human. There is something about those older games and their challenge that effectively gamifies the idea of just how hard it must be for a Belmont to do these things, even as skilled as they are.

Richter had unmatched power for a Belmont but he couldn't double jump, fly, change shape, equip cards, summon tiny devils, equip different weapons and whatnot. The game limited you and made up for it with carefully constructed monster speed, movement, placement and health. And these things couldn't be made impotent simply by grinding enough to scrub your way through.

Do I think the DS and 3DS games are good? Yes, I do. Great, even. But with so many ways to break the game, it was less about meticulous game design and more about appealing to RPG mentality.

I'll always play 'metroidvania' games, and I'll always enjoy them. But that's probably the reason I love Dracula X Chronicles so much-it wasn't so much a 'new' game but it was an old game, with largely the old mechanics, with some new exploration options to improve replayability. I hadn't played a Castlevania game like that in a long time. It was refreshing to revisit it with a new look and new OST.

Just one man's .02.
 

sylvie

NG.COM TEMPTRESS
20 Year Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Posts
11,242
I'll never forget the time(s) I dropped acid last summer and played SotN with my (then) boyfriend. Magical. I felt like a little kid again. it was probably one of the most therapeutic moments in my adult life. I mostly watched him play after a certain point but we beat the whole thing before the sun came up and i cried!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: time to change my av back to Alucard

also, I agree with you Taiso! Although I haven't played much of the original Castlevania games but this thread is making me kinda want to. Not as much as its makin me wanna play SotN but yeah...... I get kind of frustrated when trying to find out where to go with the metroidvania style but im really fucking stupid when it comes to vidya games so that's no surprise
 
Last edited:

SouthtownKid

There are four lights
20 Year Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2003
Posts
26,871
If there's one thing I don't like about SotN, it's that it completely changed the direction of Castlevania and turned it into a non-linear RPG-lite experience.

As a one of a kind game, I think it's excellent. I personally consider it the best game in the entire series to that point from a mechanical standpoint, player engagement and addiction. It also has the best aesthetics of the entire series to that point, from level design to character art to music.

However.

After this game, this is what Castlevania became and I'm not so certain that it was good for the series in the long run.
This. Exactly this. If Castlevania had gone back to the classic style with the next game, SotN would be one of the greatest of all-time. And objectively, it is fantastic. But I grew a little bitter towards it with each subsequent less-good metroidvania sequel. Chronicles for PSX made me realize how much I prefer original style over Metroid style.
 

Taiso

Remembers The North,
20 Year Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2000
Posts
13,156
I've still never beaten Chronicles for PSX. I think that when I played it, I was too 'used' to the Metroidvaioa style of game and I was frustrated by how difficult it was. I think I'm going to revisit it today.

Which is another thing I just realized. The non-linear aspect of SotN turned the challenge from the difficulty of the game itself into the difficulty of trying to discover the order in which to advance. I cannot think of a single instance in that game where I felt challenged by the enemies because I knew that if I leveled up enough and either got a good drop or went to the shop, I could just acquire a weapon to make it easier. That is what makes RPGs fun to play but with Castlevania, I really like having limited offense because not only does it demand more of me as a player, but as I said before...I think kt really perfectly codifies the gravity of the situation for the Belmonts into video game terms.
 

SML

NEANDERTHAL FUCKER,
20 Year Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Posts
11,153
Every one hundred years
the forces of good
mysteriously start
to weaken.
 

Taiso

Remembers The North,
20 Year Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2000
Posts
13,156
One thing that Rondo has over all the other Castlevania games is its intro.

For some reason, German feels like the perfect language for narrating satanic blood rituals. Its guttural abruptness and prodigious hard consonants give it a harsh tonality.

When the narrator is talking about all of the shapes Dracula can assume, it's downright creepy. It's like Dracula could be watching you know and you'd never know. Effective.
 

Takumaji

Master Enabler
Staff member
Joined
Jul 24, 2001
Posts
19,029
Taiso and SouthTownKid,

I hear you with SotN giving the series a different/wrong turn, these were my thoughts as well for many years until I sort of rediscovered it after I had bought Vampire Killer for MSX2 computers which was developed at the same time than the first NES game but released a month later in Japan, it never officially appeared in the US or Europe. According to the info that can be found online (Wiki, Forums, etc.), Vampire Killer was the original concept but Konami felt that they had to change a few things for the markets outside of Japan and thus the well-known first Castlevania appeared on NES.

The thing is that Vampire Killer has (minimal) Metroidvania-style backtracking, an enhanced key system plus extras not found in other versions and even some sort of shop system. It's also more difficult than the NES version, whip upgrades are more scarce and the enemies are quite relentless in their attacks. Each level consists of various areas that can be reached by climbing up or down a screen while the current segment you're in has endless horizontal scrolling. It's slightly confusing at first but once you got the concept down, it's smooth sailing. Moving horizontally to find extras/powerups and rack up score, move vertically to enter the next area and eventually fight the level boss. Other than that, Vampire Killer and NES CV share parts of the level design and other elements, they're two versions of the same basic concept.

As there are several ways to reach the top of a level, it's not as linear as in the platformer version but - and that's the main difference to SotN - it CAN be if you want to, just find the door keys (there are chest keys as well) and move on, you don't necessarily need the extras or hidden stuff to advance (even tho it makes things decidedly easier). Graphics and sound are excellent, gameplay is smooth, overall it's a wonderful game that needs a bit of persistence but is highly rewarding to play, specially for someone who used to be a diehard crusader for a pure platformer CV. I still slightly prefer the platformer games like CV, CV3 and Bloodlines over Vampire Killer or SotN but started to view the series in a different light after my initial Vampire Killer experience and even started playing Simon's Quest which I used to rate as the bastard child of the series.

In this light, SotN is closer to the roots of the series than some may think. I would have loved if SotN would have been a more linear platformer, the bit of backtracking in Vampire Killer was dosed just right but I found it a bit tedious in SotN, felt kinda unbalanced.

Watch some Vampire Killer gameplay here:

 

LoneSage

A Broken Man
20 Year Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
Posts
44,681
I'd cut off my useless pinky on my right hand to see wasabi's post here about Castlevania. I have never seen him talk about Castlevania. I don't think he cares about this series though. He's a master at fighters though, one of the best.
 

Taiso

Remembers The North,
20 Year Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2000
Posts
13,156
Speaking of Simon's Quest, I have a really great homebrew modification for that game on EMU. It's still the same game, but it offers a number of improvements that make the game playable for English speaking audiences.

It had a save system and not a passcode system. On EMU, save states make this largely unimportant but there are some that have put the ROM on a cart to provide a more authentic experience.

Near perfect English translation so that the dialogue makes sense and is actually useful.

An in game map of the world that can be accessed at will with the Select button. And surprisingly enough, it's a very well drawn map.

An opening 'film reel' sequence that explains what happened in the first game and contextualizes the story behind the second game.

The ability to switch between weapons and whip types. In the original build, you were stuck with whatever whip you bought last, which could be frustrating and needlessly grindy. This way, you can just change the equipped weapon for maximum efficiency.

My file shows it as 'Castlevania II-Retranslated with Enhancements' If you haven't tried it yet, I'd recommend you give it a spin. It's an interesting version and who knows how things might have gone had the NES release not been so clumsy.

I don't feel this made the game 'easy' so much as it made it 'playable' and a satisfying Castlevania experience. While it is a non linear game and there are RPG elements in it, Castlevania III didn't try to carry that formula forward (which I think was the right move at that time). Instead, it returned to the more traditional platforming of the first game with some alternate path choices as well as your option of which companion to bring with you on your journey. Or, alternately, you could just go it alone the whole way. The game has four different endings depending on which companion you beat the game with (or none at all) too.
 
Last edited:

ballzdeepx

Rugal's Secretary
20 Year Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Posts
3,067
Rondo>Chronicles>SOTN>IV>Bloodlines for me.

The only thing that bloodlines has going for it is the multiple character aspect for replay ability, but I don't replay this game often.

I can appreciate the control responsiveness and speed bloodlines offers but it's no matter because the game is marred with the following:

Forced damage - seriously some of the worst flying enemies in the series
Platforming - The highs are outweighed by the lame level design, Getting caught up on staircases or other objects is far too frequent.
Bosses that look like rejects from an unreleased treasure game (and I love treasure) jumping all over the place.
Odd & out of place theme that doesn't fit the series for me (but I can understand why some might like that)

Which brings me to the overall #1 letdown of this game... The level design.
Starting with level 1 - each level gets progressively worse, unimaginative, each color palate worse than the previous, and less fun in every way. You don't feel excited or motivated to progress at all, the visibility is obstructed due to a blend of the genesis limitations and the choices made by the developers. This game is plain ugly and feels like a B team created it.

A chore to slog through plain and simple and it's easily at the bottom. I can appreciate challenge, and that the genesis was able to secure a CV release, but this game barely lives up to the legacy as far as I'm concerned. Rondo conversely, is a perfect example of them taking the original formula and expanding on it offering improved gameplay, cutscenes and branching paths - yet it feels like the supreme CV experience.
 
Last edited:

oliverclaude

General Morden's Aide
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Posts
7,688
I like Dracula XX & the X68000 remake of the first best. The first is like an arcade version of Rondo, you can playthrough it in one single session, it has a perfect length. The same could be said about the latter, I just prefer the graphical overhaul to the NES original. But Rondo is more for the acquired taste: the XXL chicken & heart symbols, its intro outspoken through crystal clear German, the private Prologue with Death, the kitschy kawaii designs of Maria, Richter(sic!) as a name for the hero, even a mini-game for not using the right extension card... it's tear provoking brilliancy, but it's not exactly a game anymore. I love it, but I rarely play it. This perfection evokes a kind of fear in me.
 

HornheaDD

Viewpoint Vigilante
Fagit of the Year
Joined
Mar 22, 2016
Posts
4,264
Hey remember how awesome Legacy of Darkness was?

Me neither.

Rondo > *, to me. But in fairness, Ive never played Bloodlines for more than a quick sit-down.
 

ballzdeepx

Rugal's Secretary
20 Year Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Posts
3,067
I just went ahead and beat it on expert with Morris. I just can't find this game fun - at least the stage 6 bosses are cool but that level is the worst thing ever.
More power to those that like this game, It's just not for me.
 

Pretty Amy

Loyal Neo-Disciple
10 Year Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Posts
840
Oh I believe you, I just can't comprehend the distain. The physics/control is definitely inferior IV/Bloodlines/Rondo, but I don't find it's pacing unpleasant, I don't find it overly easy, overly difficult.

I guess I just assume people think it's bad because

A. There's the "hey, wtf, this is nothing like the PC-Engine game!" reaction that set a bad tone for it. I'm sure all of the late 90's early 2000's gamefaqs reviews are unfavorable. As silly as that sounds...those reviews planted a lot of seeds in peoples minds for a good chunk of time. Maybe not so much today though haha.

Or

B. People think it's "overpriced" and not worth the money. I think it's easy for a lot of people do get disappointed when playing "collectors pieces'

But I'm sure there are also C,D,E,F reasons.

I'm late to the thread, but I'd like to suggest adding:

C. Too many damn pits during the Dracula fight.
 

Mr Bakaboy

Beast Buster
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Posts
2,121
Rondo IMO might be the greatest because it gives the total package. The playstyle feels old school with a few tweaks. It's story is great especially paired with Sympthony. The branching paths give more playability. The difficulty is hard, but not Impossible.

I can understand people's gripes with every Castlevania, but this series is famous for being impossible to crown a true #1 game. It just shows how many quality games were released over the years.
 
Top