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Thread: Oficial Super SD System 3 RGB Statement

  1. #1
    Neosd Developer neosd's Avatar
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    Oficial Super SD System 3 RGB Statement

    We would like to start by apologizing to everyone who has received a Super SD System 3 with lower quality RGB video output than expected.

    During the development of Super SD System 3, we tested numerous games on our TV setups without noticing any noise in the RGB image.


    Castlevania was one of the games we used for our tests.

    Here is a video taken with a stock Coregrafx 1 console and IFU CD setup over its composite video output. It has been captured with a Framemeister upscaler and Elgato Game Capture HD60 Pro:



    This is another video of the same game, captured with the same Coregrafx 1 console, but over RGB with the first version of the Super SD System 3:


    It’s clear that the RGB image on the shipped Super SD System 3 is a large improvement over the stock composite video.
    Even though Super SD System 3 was actually designed more as an optical disc emulator than a RGB device itself, offering a quality RGB output on the device has always been one of our goals with this product.

    As soon as the tests and comments from the first received units came in, we halted shipments to analyze the reported RGB issues.
    The results of our tests are the following ones :


    In Castlevania, using the Framemeister and our tested CRTs and LCDs, its hard to notice the issue but it can be seen at minute 4:01 if pointed there.



    There is some noise in the background there that can be seen while the background is moving.

    This issue is hard or even impossible to notice on most TV setups cause the different upscalers used by current TV manufacturers filter the image in different ways, hiding this noise more or less.

    On upscalers like the Framemeister and OSSC its easier to notice because of the way they do the upscaling (filtering less of the image).
    And on most CRTs it’s difficult to notice as well.

    With the help and feedback from the community, we have isolated the issues and they have been corrected on a new PCB design we submitted to production today, 24th January 2018.


    These issues include:

    1. Out of spec Composite Sync signal: This has been fixed on the new PCB by using the PCE CSYNC output to drive the CSYNC circuit. Now standard Mega drive/Genesis CSYNC cables can be used.

    2. Audio noise: We have rebalanced the PCE audio that gets mixed with the CD audio therefore lowering background noise. The PCE audio was actually louder than on NEC's hardware, but by lowering it, it is now matched to the IFU audio output.

    3. Video noise: This was the hardest one for us to notice during testing and the most important one to correct. This was fixed due to the fact the video amp referenced digital ground rather than analog ground. So now both audio and video grounds have been changed to analog ground. This has greatly improved video quality and removed any noise in the picture.



    The new submitted PCB RGB output can be seen in this third video:


    This last video of the same game was captured with the same Coregrafx 1 console but with the revised Super SD System 3 PCB.

    The noise has totally disappeared on the same scenes where it was seen with the first PCB design (minute 3:57).

    This noise issue is heavily dependent on the game being played and on the actual TV setup.
    While on most games it’s impossible to notice, however in others like Bonk III it’s easier to see the noise due to the large solid color backgrounds.

    Again thanks to the community we have been pointed there.


    Bonk III stock coregrafx 1 composite output :


    Bonk III first Super SD System 3 shipped pcb


    Bonk III new pcb :


    Because we stand by the products that we design and sell, we will be replacing the PCB of every Super SD System 3 that has thus far been shipped out to anyone needing this replacement.

    We simply ask that you remove the PCB from the Super SD System 3 and pay to ship it back to us and we will pay to ship the new PCB to you. Returns will be handled by a new dedicated Terraonion support forum that will be setup within the next 6 weeks.

    This is also how long it will take for us to have the new PCBs made and have them factory soldered. At this point shipments for existing orders will continue with the new revised PCBs.

    All orders will be handled in the order that they are received. This includes new orders. Day one orders are first in line. Orders placed today will be at the back of the queue. We hope to be caught up with all orders and have units on hand for shipment within 24 hours later this year.

    Although it has come at great cost to us in both money and time, we realize that redesigning the Super SD System 3 was the right call to make as our goal is to deliver the best quality possible in all of our products.

    We hope that you enjoy using it for years to come.

    Terraonion SL
    Last edited by neosd; 01-24-2018 at 12:31 PM.
    Will i get 0 secconds loading times if i make a cluster of the entire size of the microsd ?



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  2. #2
    Neosd Developer neosd's Avatar
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    EDIT 10-02-2018

    Hello,

    Some videos of the new pcb, its the same footage captured with the Framemeister and with a camera.





    Saludos



    EDIT - PRODUCTION STATUS - 09-02-2018

    We got the new pcbs today from factory

    NEW Panel front picture:



    There is only one visible change on the front, www.neosdstore.com has been replaced by www.terraonion.com

    On the back there are more changes



    On the left its the OLD pcb and on the right there is the NEW one.

    We have soldered the new pcb today by hand and everything works fine, rgb issue is gone

    So whats the road map as today ?

    monday 12th february we enter into production for the batch. we should be shipping again before the month ends, i think factory will take about 14-21 days to provide us the boards.

    Thanks




    MORE EDIT :

    I just forget to say big thanks to http://retrogamingcables.co.uk/ aswel, they shipped us two Mega Drive 2 Csync cables (for free) last friday with our UPS account, so we were able to have those last monday to perform our tests. All those RGB videos were recorded using theyr great cables.
    I can tell that the difference on the audio noise is huge compared with the cheap ones.
    I totally recomend to buy those




    EDIT about returning pcbs :


    Someone in usa wants to help us to concentrate the pcbs, so we are willing to pay the shipment back from usa to Spain of all the pcbs and you guys will not have to pay for this.

    More details soon, we are working on this right now









    I am going to use this space to first say thanks to Voultar, a lot of guys were using scopes and fancy hardware while sending complains, but none of those had a clue about what they were talking about.
    Voultar pointed us to the issue the same day and we were able to fix it so fast thanks to him. Again Voltar, we apreciate to see a top skilled guy helping instead of insulting.








    Seccond, i would like to express my total dissapointment with RetroRGB youtuber guy.

    He asked us for a free review and I decided not to ship him that cause i consider him a totally not neutral guy, this is why i declined his offer on the first time but i acepted the same offer from another youtuber with much audience than him that is not linked or related with us.

    So its going to be a neutral review from a reputable source as soon as the new pcbs arrive.

    Retrorgb, moaning about not received a review unit and telling the product "is a dissaster", its really dishonest with your viewers. Get one and moan about it.
    Last edited by neosd; 02-10-2018 at 08:37 AM.
    Will i get 0 secconds loading times if i make a cluster of the entire size of the microsd ?



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  3. #3
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    EDIT: I can see the videos now. Nevermind.
    Original: I'll take it the videos are still processing...I'm not able to view them yet.

    Thanks for the detailed breakdown and transparency. I think you may have a quick typo here: "we have isolated the issues and they have been corrected on a new PCB design we submitted to production today, 24th February 2018." I'm assuming you meant January, unless you were saying there's a turnaround time on the new boards that is a month out.
    Last edited by sparksterz; 01-24-2018 at 12:22 PM.

  4. #4
    Neosd Developer neosd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparksterz View Post
    EDIT: I can see the videos now. Nevermind.
    Original: I'll take it the videos are still processing...I'm not able to view them yet.

    Thanks for the detailed breakdown and transparency. I think you may have a quick typo here: "we have isolated the issues and they have been corrected on a new PCB design we submitted to production today, 24th February 2018." I'm assuming you meant January, unless you were saying there's a turnaround time on the new boards that is a month out.
    yes, its a typo, going to fix it. PCBS were submited to production today

    Refresh the website, videos should be seen now.
    Will i get 0 secconds loading times if i make a cluster of the entire size of the microsd ?



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  5. #5
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    Wow, the difference in noise reduction on Bonk III is impressive. Thanks for doing this and incurring the additional costs to replace them.

  6. #6
    Neosd Developer neosd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparksterz View Post
    Wow, the difference in noise reduction on Bonk III is impressive. Thanks for doing this and incurring the additional costs to replace them.
    Yes, we could only have showen Castlevania but we wanted to show Bonk III aswel cause this is where the issue is more noticiable. Its a pitty we never tried this game before or we should have noticed it .

    Thanks
    Will i get 0 secconds loading times if i make a cluster of the entire size of the microsd ?



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  7. #7
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    Thx neo for the explanation of the issue,gona send it back when its possible.
    I don't have interference on my setup i own now,but gona send it back in case my tv sometime broke,maybe on another tv i have much interference,you never know.

  8. #8
    Neosd Developer neosd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fille1976 View Post
    Thx neo for the explanation of the issue,gona send it back when its possible.
    I don't have interference on my setup i own now,but gona send it back in case my tv sometime broke,maybe on another tv i have much interference,you never know.

    We have six weeks to arrange the pcb returns, for now donīt ship anything please, we have to see if we can make combined shipments.

    We donīt need the pcbs here to start shipping the new ones aswel, for example in USA as soon as those arrive to the meeting point, we will ship new ones back without needing to have the old ones here ....

    If we can concentrate packets from other countries, like USA to Spain that as today is confirmed (users will have to ship pcbs to a location in USA and we will pay shipment from usa tom Spain), saving money and time, this will be better for all us.
    Last edited by neosd; 01-24-2018 at 12:55 PM.
    Will i get 0 secconds loading times if i make a cluster of the entire size of the microsd ?



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    Quote Originally Posted by neosd View Post
    We have six weeks to arrange the pcb returns, for now donīt ship anything please, we have to see if we can make combined shipments.

    We donīt need the pcbs here to start shipping the new ones aswel, for example in USA as soon as those arrive to the meeting point, we will ship new ones back without needing to have the old ones here ....

    If we can concentrate packets from other countries, like USA to Spain that as today is confirmed (users will have to ship pcbs to a location in USA and we will pay shipment from usa tom Spain), saving money and time, this will be better for all us.
    That's awesome to consider the Intl shipping. Thanks man!

  10. #10
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    Ok neo,will send only after is asked you via pm or in chat.
    I'm not in a hurry for it,again i'm happy you find the problem and its solved,thats the most important.

  11. #11
    Neosd Developer neosd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashbackx View Post
    That's awesome to consider the Intl shipping. Thanks man!
    We are reasonable guys and we are not going to harm anyone with shipments.

    We have already been damaged with this cause pcbs are not cheap to manufacture and there is no way to recycle parts back from those. But we are not going to save on anything to deliver a better product or to have anyone happy.


    We are not just loosing the actual shipped units but the rest of the production we already have here, and its not small.
    This whole situation and the decision we took, costed us 1.000s of euros.

    As long as there is place to improve, we are open minded people.

    The idea of not paying shipment back was more related to the paperwork/ send money work than other thing,

    But if we can concentrate shipments this is good to us. If we canīt concentrate shipments to everywhere, we will find a solution for those users.

    Donīt worry about that, we will do our best as always

    Alex,
    Last edited by neosd; 01-24-2018 at 01:02 PM.
    Will i get 0 secconds loading times if i make a cluster of the entire size of the microsd ?



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    Neosd team give here a masterly lesson of professionalism, which many would not follow , big respect to you .

  14. #14
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    Alex .. maybe you can still salvage the old stock.

    I know it impacts the video/audio output, but the emulation is perfect. Some people have their consoles modified for RGB/video out. So they should still be able to use the old "defective" stock and bypass the RGB out. Any thoughts about selling old stock for deep discount?

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    There can be only one. Syn's Avatar
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    Thanks for the update NeoSD!

  16. #16
    Neosd Developer neosd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leonk View Post
    Alex .. maybe you can still salvage the old stock.

    I know it impacts the video/audio output, but the emulation is perfect. Some people have their consoles modified for RGB/video out. So they should still be able to use the old "defective" stock and bypass the RGB out. Any thoughts about selling old stock for deep discount?
    Yes, the units to my own point of view are not faulty units.

    This is what really upsets me, to destroy a production batch cause the image could be better. Cause lets face it, the videos are there and the image is not terrible as those guys said it was.

    What we donīt want is to have A users and B users.
    So for now, we donīt have plans to sell those with a discounted price. Those will sit in the discarded units box for now

    Alex,
    Last edited by neosd; 01-24-2018 at 01:28 PM.
    Will i get 0 secconds loading times if i make a cluster of the entire size of the microsd ?



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  17. #17
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    This is good news. Thanks for doing this.

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    Good job and very admirable way of handling it right down to putting up for a new batch and not recycling the old ones with the sort of defect to them to not have A and B batches.

    Maybe things will change in the future to recoup them, maybe not, but it wouldn't be a bad thing. Perhaps etch or mark those on the board itself as A units, then sell at a grossly discounted price with a contracted term that says NO SUPPORT due to the various issues. That way you get something back, don't throw out perfectly usable stuff, and people on a budget could still get a chance. Think of it like how Krikzz does the CHINA versions of everdrives. They cost like 1/2 the price, but get ZERO official support at all and can't take a firmware update either.

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    Neosd Developer neosd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    Good job and very admirable way of handling it right down to putting up for a new batch and not recycling the old ones with the sort of defect to them to not have A and B batches.

    Maybe things will change in the future to recoup them, maybe not, but it wouldn't be a bad thing. Perhaps etch or mark those on the board itself as A units, then sell at a grossly discounted price with a contracted term that says NO SUPPORT due to the various issues. That way you get something back, don't throw out perfectly usable stuff, and people on a budget could still get a chance. Think of it like how Krikzz does the CHINA versions of everdrives. They cost like 1/2 the price, but get ZERO official support at all and can't take a firmware update either.

    We changed the website url printed on the new ones.

    Old ones were www.neosdstore.com and new ones have www.terraonion.com on its place.

    We will not cheat our customers and we are not going to let others cheat with those aswel.

    This is why we donīt want the old units on the market, we preffer to loose money this time ratter than confuse people.
    Will i get 0 secconds loading times if i make a cluster of the entire size of the microsd ?



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  20. #20
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    Will the audio circuit be isolated to analog ground as well in the new PCB?

  21. #21
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    Excellent news. Can I go ahead and preorder your next product? I don't even care what it is because I know it'll be awesome.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr4zymanz0r View Post
    Will the audio circuit be isolated to analog ground as well in the new PCB?
    It is mentioned in point 3 that audio and video are going to analog ground.

  23. #23
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    Well done guys, top class service as always. I’m just sorry you had to deal with so much hostility from the community for what is an incredible product.

  24. #24
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    I’ve seen a couple of RetroRGB’s videos before and he seems quite far up DarkSoft’s arse the way he gushes about his MVS flash cart, yet seems to ignore NeoSD. Today’s video was out of order though...the guy is full of shit.

  25. #25
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    Great job Terra Onion =D Is there no way you can modify the old boards - I imagine time consuming, but perhaps with a mod they could be sold at discount rather than not using them at all?

    EDIT: I don't even mind providing some free labour if there's a way to mod them.
    My YouTube channel contains some MVS repairs and stuff:-
    http://www.youtube.com/user/GadgetUK164

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