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Thread: May The Force Be With You BITCHES!

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSneth View Post
    Sure, but they are doing more than just killing them off. The legacy of these characters is about as cold as their bodies.
    The rebels are now a skeleton crew.
    I feel that a time jump could serve the storyline very well but if The Last Jedi taught me anything about this franchise, it's to not anticipate what comes next.


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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSneth View Post
    Sure, but they are doing more than just killing them off. The legacy of these characters is about as cold as their bodies.
    The rebels are now a skeleton crew.
    Sadly, this is correct. VIII basically knocked everything down to the foundation, and even dug up so of that while they were at it. The only thing that boggles me is why Leah lived...that makes zero sense. Are we going to get a weird CG laden robo corpse of her in IX?

    What's odd to me is that unless they really get shit moving along, VIII knocked everything back to zero. The First Order is stripped, the Rebellion even more so.

    I have no clue what to expect in IX...none what so ever.
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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokehouse View Post
    Sadly, this is correct. VIII basically knocked everything down to the foundation, and even dug up so of that while they were at it. The only thing that boggles me is why Leah lived...that makes zero sense. Are we going to get a weird CG laden robo corpse of her in IX?

    What's odd to me is that unless they really get shit moving along, VIII knocked everything back to zero. The First Order is stripped, the Rebellion even more so.

    I have no clue what to expect in IX...none what so ever.
    Yeah, I was definitely scratching my head, wondering, "Where could they go from here that would be exciting?" It felt more like a really shitty wrap-up / ending of the trilogy rather than a set-up for the final third. Both sides are down to nothing. There's not much to gain or lose on either side. JJ is going to have to come up with a Mass Effect 1 level mindfuck to raise the stakes for IX.

    I don't think that Leia will be in IX. I'm torn as to whether or not she should have died in space. On one hand, it would have put a bow on her story without having to deal with Carrie Fisher's real-life death. On the other hand, we wouldn't have gotten to see her reunion with Luke, which was one of the highlights of the movie. On second thought, even better would be if she forced Dianne off the resistance base and been the one to sacrifice herself to destroy Snoke's ship.

    Fans are wondering if Snoke is really dead. I think he is and the writing for his storyline is just that bad. What a waste.

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  4. #204
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    Does anyone remember if the map to Luke Skywalker was ever explained?

    The implication seems to be that it was a way people could find him if they needed to.

    But if he decided to abandon the concepts of the Jedi and put his own legend to rest, and if he's gone to the ass end of space to leave the galaxy and its troubles behind so he can spear fish and drink walrus milk (or whatever it is), then why would he leave any trace of where he went for anybody to find?

    I'm not looking for people to fill in the plot holes with their theories or with things from the book, which I shouldn't have to read to understand a movie's plot. I want to know if it's explained in the film itself. I just don't remember.


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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taiso View Post
    Does anyone remember if the map to Luke Skywalker was ever explained?

    The implication seems to be that it was a way people could find him if they needed to.

    But if he decided to abandon the concepts of the Jedi and put his own legend to rest, and if he's gone to the ass end of space to leave the galaxy and its troubles behind so he can spear fish and drink walrus milk (or whatever it is), then why would he leave any trace of where he went for anybody to find?

    I'm not looking for people to fill in the plot holes with their theories or with things from the book, which I shouldn't have to read to understand a movie's plot. I want to know if it's explained in the film itself. I just don't remember.
    That I know of, its really not explained. That I can see, nor is:

    Rey's full backstory
    Snoke's backstory
    Anything to do with the Knights or Ren (why they exist, the other members, why they're called that)
    Much of anything to do with the First Order and it's history

    I also have no idea what the deal is when Rey visits the area strong with the dark side of the force...he seeing herself thousands of times...I really have no idea what the point is.

    I find it absurd that they spent more time developing the story of a random rebel oriental mechanic girl than they did any of the key characters...



    (No I'll go off the paranoid deep end)
    I get a ton of PC bullshit in all of this. The concept of "anyone can be amazing", or the absolute shoving of "White men = bad, women/minorities = good" is also obvious and annoying. Rogue One was even worse with the force feeding of PC horseshit.


    In other words, the movie just isn't for me and I get this now. I was hoping it would be something I'd highly enjoy...but it isn't. It is what it is. I'll take my daughter to see IX, but my expectations will be zero.
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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokehouse View Post
    That I know of, its really not explained. That I can see, nor is:

    Rey's full backstory
    Snoke's backstory
    Anything to do with the Knights or Ren (why they exist, the other members, why they're called that)
    Much of anything to do with the First Order and it's history

    I also have no idea what the deal is when Rey visits the area strong with the dark side of the force...he seeing herself thousands of times...I really have no idea what the point is.

    I find it absurd that they spent more time developing the story of a random rebel oriental mechanic girl than they did any of the key characters...



    (No I'll go off the paranoid deep end)
    I get a ton of PC bullshit in all of this. The concept of "anyone can be amazing", or the absolute shoving of "White men = bad, women/minorities = good" is also obvious and annoying. Rogue One was even worse with the force feeding of PC horseshit.


    In other words, the movie just isn't for me and I get this now. I was hoping it would be something I'd highly enjoy...but it isn't. It is what it is. I'll take my daughter to see IX, but my expectations will be zero.
    I don't think the map was explained. This was one of the main gripes from critics.

    Rey's backstory was explained. She's an orphan who scavenges for scraps so she can eat oatmeal so she doesn't die. The only thing they didn't address is why she has force powers. This was a set-up / cliff-hanger for VIII which Rian Johnson did not deliver on. Obviously, they wanted viewers to question if Rey was related to Luke. It was confirmed that she is truly an orphan when she went into the pit. The reason she only sees herself is because she feels alone in the world. She expected to see Han or Luke or ANY parental figure with her down there, but she only saw herself, reinforcing that she needs to develop her self-reliance. Great idea, terrible execution. Her having the force despite not having any relation to a Jedi or Sith was only addressed in passing, by Luke saying that the force is something dormant in everyone, but has only been tapped by the Jedi and Sith.

    The lack of history for the resistance or the first order is par for the course. There was zero backstory for the rebels or the empire within the original trilogy. As far as the viewer knows, the only egregious act that the empire performs is destroying Alderaan. In fact, I'd say we can infer more about the first order than the empire. It's said in VII that the first order was built from the embers of the empire. It seems like some sort of nationalist / neo-nazi / took our jobs type rally occurred after 3 decades of relative peace, and the resistance formed to counter this.

    I agree that we should, by this point, know why Kylo Ren went to the dark side.

    You take issue with the message of Rey and "anyone can be amazing?" How about a poor farmer boy in the middle of nowhere. We don't know Luke's true backstory until the end of Empire FFS. So I don't buy your argument there at all. It's the unwilling hero archetype, not some liberal conspiracy.

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  7. #207
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    Kylo went to the dark side because he had mommy/daddy and grand daddy issues. What those issues are, I guess it is not deemed important enough to be on screen.

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    The impression I got of her descending into the hole was, just like Luke with the tree in Empire, she went in and was confronted with her own fears. Like Luke, she succumbed to them, which is why she only saw herself reflected in the visions (Luke through Vader's shattered helmet and Rey through a mirror.)

    I also interpreted Kylo telling her that she was descended from nobody important was a lie to get her to break down and give in, which I see as a parallel to Vader and Luke in Empire. Kylo almost got through to her because they were talking to one another and he was giving her answers that no one else was providing. If I were theorycrafting, I'd presume that Snoke might have been doing the same thing to Ben prior to his duel with Luke, but I can't know that and this film doesn't really concern itself with answering any questions.

    This film's major theme is the failure that transpires when we cling too strongly to the past. Unfortunately, botched execution and failure to shore up the massive plot holes sink this film right to the bottom of the Star Wars ocean.

    I'm not really theorycrafting in the sense that I want to see any certain scenario play out, but it seems most likely to me that Rey actually is descended from someone important but she is too afraid to see it in the hole on green milk walrus planet. Kylo preys on that to try and unmake her so that she will seek his guidance and work with him. Rather than balance between the Force and the Dark Side, Kylo wants to do something new with it by establishing a premise of unity.

    Thematically, these are all pretty good ideas and look great on paler. Too bad this movie is ten pounds of bantha shit in five pound bag, because the kernel of great storytelling is there, festooned on the side of this turd.


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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taiso View Post

    This film's major theme is the failure that transpires when we cling too strongly to the past. Unfortunately, botched execution and failure to shore up the massive plot holes sink this film right to the bottom of the Star Wars ocean.
    The movie tells us to not cling to the past. The movie itself recklessly abandoned the past and paid the price in terms of critical fan reception.

    I'm not really theorycrafting in the sense that I want to see any certain scenario play out, but it seems most likely to me that Rey actually is descended from someone important but she is too afraid to see it in the hole on green milk walrus planet. Kylo preys on that to try and unmake her so that she will seek his guidance and work with him. Rather than balance between the Force and the Dark Side, Kylo wants to do something new with it by establishing a premise of unity.
    Yeah, I get that sense. As soon as Kylo Ren said she came from nothing, I got the vibe he was bating her. But I'd prefer Rey to be an orphan. It would be too obvious for her to be Luke's daughter, for example.

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  10. #210
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    They will probably flash forward 3-5 years starting with Leia's funeral. Rebels would have slowly rebuild. Kylo Ren probably will have his Knights of Ren groupie and Rei getting tag team with Luke & Yoda. Sprinkle in some love triangle with the new heroes. Either Kylo or Snoke if alive will try to manipulate Finn so they can try to turn Rei to the darkside.

    As for the map, they explained it in Force Awaken...I mean Han did when he had his Its true, the force... jedi.. all of it....Its all true speech. After Luke disappeared people went looking for him. People who knew him best went to look for the first jedi temple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HDRchampion View Post
    They will probably flash forward 3-5 years starting with Leia's funeral. Rebels would have slowly rebuild. Kylo Ren probably will have his Knights of Ren groupie and Rei getting tag team with Luke & Yoda. Sprinkle in some love triangle with the new heroes. Either Kylo or Snoke if alive will try to manipulate Finn so they can try to turn Rei to the darkside.

    As for the map, they explained it in Force Awaken...I mean Han did when he had his Its true, the force... jedi.. all of it....Its all true speech. After Luke disappeared people went looking for him. People who knew him best went to look for the first jedi temple.
    True, they could jump ahead in time. I assumed they wouldn't since VIII picks up right after VII, but it would make a lot more sense to jump ahead.

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    Yeah, the map was misleadingly referred to as a "map to Luke Skywalker" in the movie (several times), but as pointed out, was actually a map to the first jedi temple. Some people knew Luke had gone off to find said temple and concluded that's where Luke would be. Apparently R2 got his portion of the map (in it's incomplete form) from a database on the Deathstar way back when, because the Emperor was also looking for it at some point (to destroy it to help prevent future Jedi, I assume). This was clarified by JJ... somewhere. This problem highlights my belief that a lot of the plot problems and anti-climactic reveals viewers are experiencing from the Last Jedi started back in the Force Awakens. From what I've gathered, all of the main story elements for this trilogy have been in place for some time (including backstories and lineages). The big reveals that upset fans weren't made-up by Rian Johnson to make people angry by blowing-up their expectations - their expectations were intentionally manipulated and grown by the Force Awakens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igakajook View Post
    Yeah, the map was misleadingly referred to as a "map to Luke Skywalker" in the movie (several times), but as pointed out, was actually a map to the first jedi temple. Some people knew Luke had gone off to find said temple and concluded that's where Luke would be. Apparently R2 got his portion of the map (in it's incomplete form) from a database on the Deathstar way back when, because the Emperor was also looking for it at some point (to destroy it to help prevent future Jedi, I assume). This was clarified by JJ... somewhere. This problem highlights my belief that a lot of the plot problems and anti-climactic reveals viewers are experiencing from the Last Jedi started back in the Force Awakens. From what I've gathered, all of the main story elements for this trilogy have been in place for some time (including backstories and lineages). The big reveals that upset fans weren't made-up by Rian Johnson to make people angry by blowing-up their expectations - their expectations were intentionally manipulated and grown by the Force Awakens.
    Good info on the map stuff. Did not know that.

    For the plot points and details being set from the start... I don't think that's how longterm series are usually done, but I'm not saying there's no way they did have everything planned out. However, I think the lack of substance in VIII would have been apparent, even from an outline, and with that much headway, they would have adjusted accordingly. I'd imagine by the time Johnson turned in his pile of shit script, it was too late to turn back. Just my speculation though. From my own experience, if you're doing a small project, you can make narrative adjustments as you go, at least to a certain degree. On bigger projects, you just can't deviate, unless you want to do reshoots. This is obviously multiplied by a million when it comes to Hollywood movies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fakeXsound View Post
    Good info on the map stuff. Did not know that.

    For the plot points and details being set from the start... I don't think that's how longterm series are usually done, but I'm not saying there's no way they did have everything planned out. However, I think the lack of substance in VIII would have been apparent, even from an outline, and with that much headway, they would have adjusted accordingly. I'd imagine by the time Johnson turned in his pile of shit script, it was too late to turn back. Just my speculation though. From my own experience, if you're doing a small project, you can make narrative adjustments as you go, at least to a certain degree. On bigger projects, you just can't deviate, unless you want to do reshoots. This is obviously multiplied by a million when it comes to Hollywood movies.
    Yeah, I totally agree. What I meant by "main story elements" was just the broad strokes. Like a map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igakajook View Post
    Yeah, I totally agree. What I meant by "main story elements" was just the broad strokes. Like a map.
    I remember in a podcast Joss Whedon saying he had 3 Avengers movies plotted out from the beginning. I'd like to know how much, if anything, changed. I think if anything, Marvel knew they had to step up their game because Avengers 2 was so meh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokehouse View Post

    I also have no idea what the deal is when Rey visits the area strong with the dark side of the force...he seeing herself thousands of times...I really have no idea what the point is.
    I thought that scene was to imply she was a clone (of some sort), considering what she asked the magic mirror prior to those images being revealed. The two lines of an answer Kylo gave as her backstory could later be waved away as manipulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lastblade View Post
    Kylo went to the dark side because he had mommy/daddy and grand daddy issues. What those issues are, I guess it is not deemed important enough to be on screen.
    Jedi should probably stop teaching humanoids before adolescence and find other 800 year old species in the meantime.
    Last edited by ForeverSublime; 01-02-2018 at 10:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taiso View Post
    I also interpreted Kylo telling her that she was descended from nobody important was a lie to get her to break down and give in
    There's nothing in the movie to suggest that. It's like the people after Empire who spent 3 years wondering if Vader was lying to Luke. Denial.

    Kylo isn't a liar and he's not a manipulative character. If anything, he's the opposite. He's painfully straightforward. He wears everything on his sleeve. That's why he's such a hyper-sensitive whiny baby-man. What he told Rey is only what he saw already in her mind. It wouldn't have had that effect on her if she hadn't already intrinsically known it. She'd only been repressing the knowledge.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthtownKid View Post
    There's nothing in the movie to suggest that. It's like the people after Empire who spent 3 years wondering if Vader was lying to Luke. Denial.

    Kylo isn't a liar and he's not a manipulative character. If anything, he's the opposite. He's painfully straightforward. He wears everything on his sleeve. That's why he's such a hyper-sensitive whiny baby-man. What he told Rey is only what he saw already in her mind. It wouldn't have had that effect on her if she hadn't already intrinsically known it. She'd only been repressing the knowledge.
    Not a hill I want to die on, honestly. I don't think being wrong about Rey's parents damages the character or her relationship with Kylo so I'll just shrug and say 'you might be right but I'll wait to see how it plays out.'


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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthtownKid View Post
    There's nothing in the movie to suggest that. It's like the people after Empire who spent 3 years wondering if Vader was lying to Luke. Denial.

    Kylo isn't a liar and he's not a manipulative character. If anything, he's the opposite. He's painfully straightforward. He wears everything on his sleeve. That's why he's such a hyper-sensitive whiny baby-man. What he told Rey is only what he saw already in her mind. It wouldn't have had that effect on her if she hadn't already intrinsically known it. She'd only been repressing the knowledge.
    While I agree, these movies are clearly not written with a single plot in mind. Obvious plots can be changed by the next production team on a whim.


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    . . . hence why Kylo's story has been told and retold with new details not previously suggested. . .
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  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSneth View Post
    While I agree, these movies are clearly not written with a single plot in mind. Obvious plots can be changed by the next production team on a whim.
    There may or may not be a grand plan at work here but it seems like Abrams set a bunch of stuff up and Johnson turned a significant portion of it on its ear.

    I feel as though Johnson was going for a sort of metatextual replication of the uncertainty and anxiety people felt after Empire. Set an ominous tone and get people worrying about what happens next.

    But doing that solely within the framework of the storyline isn't really going to work any longer. We, as consumers who deliberate on these things, are conditioned to expect the second act to be darker. Now we just enjoy the dark second act as part of the journey, like a pitch black tunnel during a roller coaster ride.

    I can't know this for certain, but I'd be willing to bet that this movie was conceived no differently from any other second act but Johnson wanted to present the material in a way that we, as an audience consuming social media in the 21st century, might take in the intended fashion.
    Last edited by Taiso; 01-03-2018 at 11:19 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSneth View Post
    While I agree, these movies are clearly not written with a single plot in mind. Obvious plots can be changed by the next production team on a whim.
    At this point, the story seems to be about as base line as it can get. The First Order is possibly in shambles (who knows, they never really state how large they are as a group, maybe most died on Starkiller Base, maybe not), the Rebellion is so stripped down, it fits in the Millennium Falcon, neither side has a real home base (again, this is a guess with the First Order)...it's pretty wide open.

    It makes me wonder if they have no plans on wrapping up this series with IX. IV, V, and VI as well as I, II, and III were all encapsulated chapters of an overall story that contained 3 acts per...VII and VIII do not feel this way at all.

    I can't help myself with this shit, and I'm mildly ashamed to admit it...bit it is what it is. I am curious to see where this goes from this point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokehouse View Post
    At this point, the story seems to be about as base line as it can get. The First Order is possibly in shambles (who knows, they never really state how large they are as a group, maybe most died on Starkiller Base, maybe not), the Rebellion is so stripped down, it fits in the Millennium Falcon, neither side has a real home base (again, this is a guess with the First Order)...it's pretty wide open.
    One thing Lucas did, for better or worse, was display infrastructure. For all we know, each side now could probably be overpowered by the arms dealers supplying them weapons in the first place.

    Pretty sure Alderaan could at least put up a fight against these guys by now. Too soon?
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokehouse View Post
    At this point, the story seems to be about as base line as it can get. The First Order is possibly in shambles
    Completely. All the Resistance really has to do is hide out somewhere a couple weeks and let the First Order implode on it's own, because it's now being led by two complete incompetents.

    They really made a big mistake in Last Jedi when they so firmly established that Hux is a complete joke right at the beginning of the movie. It totally undermines him as any kind of threat. Can you imagine someone doing that prank call thing with Vader or the Emperor? Or even Tarkin? Of course not. And Kylo is such an emotional wreck. He's believable enough as a leader of a small force of troops, but no way is he equipped to run any kind of government, even at the city level. Just not in his toolbox. I mean, Anakin seemed ill-equipped for his ambition of running things, but compared to Kylo, he was like Thomas Jefferson or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taiso View Post
    There may or may not be a grand plan at work here but it seems like Abrams set a bunch of stuff up and Johnson turned a significant portion of it on its ear.
    Yup, if by "turn it on it's ear," you mean, "throw it away." Literally. Luke throws away the lightsaber and calls it a laser sword FFS. Kevin Smith pointed out in his non-review that the movie is comprised of "Fuck you, JJ" moments. Big mistake to throw away those opportunities. Another thing that was interesting was Ridley Scott's take on it. Paraphrasing, he said that maybe Disney was just looking for a guy who was used to a 20M budget who they could push around and (this part's my theory) dangle a trilogy on a stick in front of Johnston to get him to do what they want. That said, I think there's more merit to Disney not being pleased with Johnson's script and whatnot but put a Dec 2017 release as priority over quality. Also, that trilogy news could have just as likely been to generate more hype and sell tickets. It worked on me; I was way more hyped when I heard he got his own trilogy, since I thought, "Damn, VIII must be amazing for Johnson to get three new SW movies."

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverSublime View Post
    One thing Lucas did, for better or worse, was display infrastructure. For all we know, each side now could probably be overpowered by the arms dealers supplying them weapons in the first place.
    Now that would have been a good twist. I was half expecting a bigger threat to emerge since, yes, the Resistance faces an existential threat, but really, the First Order is so small. If the arms dealers sold out to some third party, who came and clamped down on both the Resistance and First Order, that would have been something.


    Quote Originally Posted by SouthtownKid View Post
    And Kylo is such an emotional wreck. He's believable enough as a leader of a small force of troops, but no way is he equipped to run any kind of government, even at the city level. Just not in his toolbox. I mean, Anakin seemed ill-equipped for his ambition of running things, but compared to Kylo, he was like Thomas Jefferson or something.
    See, this is exactly where I thought we were going! Kylo Ren steals control of the First Order, royally fucks it up, and either he tears *everyone* to the ground out of spite, or he turns against the First Order without directly aligning with the Resistance.

    Edit: Fuckin A, man. This thread alone has more good ideas than Episode VIII.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregN View Post
    Grocery stores are like chinese and mexican places; some of them are local.

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