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Thread: Damn Scalers

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by donluca View Post
    Here's a little story about how I got back into CRTs.

    Just like you, I would always hook my stuff with composite or whatever I had handy onto modern LCDs, be it my Mega Drive, Playstation or what have you.

    Some games were really hard for me and couldn't grasp why; eventually, I decided that I just wasn't as good as the younger me and called it a day.

    Still, there was one boss of Rocket Knight Adventures I just couldn't beat, it looked like I couldn't move in time, I was reacting too slow and that really got on my nerves. After some days I decided to just put the game away and get onto something else.

    Then I read about those amazing Sony BVM/PVM monitors and snagged a nice hi-end 800 lines BVM, 14" for ~40 (a BVM 14M4DE), so I started making my own RGB cables and started playing some games. Needless to say the picture was amazing, I was speechless at how much I was missing with LCDs.

    Finally, I fired up Rocket Knight Adventures and as soon as I took control of Spark, one thing became apparent: it was like the game was reading my mind, it moved the character before I would press the button.
    After the initial shock I realized I was so used to the lag that my brain would intentionally slow down my reactions to get in sync with the lag; this is why I was getting the impression of the game reading my mind.

    I cleared the game with 1 life, on my first try. The impossible boss became a breeze.

    Now, a CRT is kind of impractical these days, but for fuck's sake go get a nice scaler because if you play those old consoles you're really missing a lot (and making playing these games a lot more frustrating then they used to).


    P.S.: Eventually I went full retard and got myself a SEGA Astro City arcade cabinet. I'm back to being a happy kid.
    Excellent Post. You pretty much summed up why I still do my old school gaming on a crt monitor.

    Plug and Play, no messing around with settings, looks awesome and zero lag.

    I do understand that some people have reasons for using scalers, whether it's Space, My Gf or Wife won't allow it or simply they just dont like the look of a bulky crt monitor.

  2. #27
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    I'm on board with just not getting the scaler+LCD thing. I also have pretty poor eyesight in the first place, so that could be a factor.

    I've picked up collecting again over the past two or three years since selling off as a teenager, and I find that the quality with typical composite RCA cables is fine with me. I actually still use RF cables on my TurboGrafx and NES Top Loader because I just haven't gotten around to what's required for getting better video out of them. It's just... I used RF on everything as a kid. That's what it looked like. I can deal with it, whether or not it's ideal.

    I don't care what anyone says about frame/input lag being so minor it shouldn't affect your gameplay. The fact that any lag exists is a problem for me. I've always been of the "gameplay over graphics" school of thought anyway, so having crap video quality on a CRT with zero added lag of any sort is the ideal choice. For some games, those few frames really, really make a difference.

    Punch-Out on NES is the one that fucks me up if there's literally any amount of lag, personally. I go from a practically guaranteed Round 2 TKO of Tyson to knocked out in the first 1:30.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssjlance View Post
    I'm on board with just not getting the scaler+LCD thing. I also have pretty poor eyesight in the first place, so that could be a factor.

    I've picked up collecting again over the past two or three years since selling off as a teenager, and I find that the quality with typical composite RCA cables is fine with me. I actually still use RF cables on my TurboGrafx and NES Top Loader because I just haven't gotten around to what's required for getting better video out of them. It's just... I used RF on everything as a kid. That's what it looked like. I can deal with it, whether or not it's ideal.

    I don't care what anyone says about frame/input lag being so minor it shouldn't affect your gameplay. The fact that any lag exists is a problem for me. I've always been of the "gameplay over graphics" school of thought anyway, so having crap video quality on a CRT with zero added lag of any sort is the ideal choice. For some games, those few frames really, really make a difference.

    Punch-Out on NES is the one that fucks me up if there's literally any amount of lag, personally. I go from a practically guaranteed Round 2 TKO of Tyson to knocked out in the first 1:30.
    If you have bad eyesight, playing in rf will just make it worse.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAZ_HOE! View Post
    My Gf or Wife won't allow it or simply they just dont like the look of a bulky crt monitor.
    Excuse me? Won't allow it?



    Quote Originally Posted by pva View Post
    While I don't have any first-hand experience with a 24kHz input signal on the OSSC, Fudoh, who knows his video processing shit, claims it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yodd View Post
    24khz works on the OSSC. I have tested it with my x68000.
    Thanks for the confirmation, guys. It's too bad I don't know anyone with an OSSC, so that I can test it with my TV. It would be a major bummer if it didn't work. Then again, like I said earlier, I haven't seen a device which my TV couldn't handle. Oh, scratch that. Now that I think about it, I got a crazy double image from Capcom's I/O that one time I tried connecting Naomis via Jamma instead of just using VGA directly, which looks great and crisp. I'm not entirely sure what the issue was, but that's a display mode I would never use, and I haven't tested it with my PC monitor, either, so it might be my I/O.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssjlance View Post
    I don't care what anyone says about frame/input lag being so minor it shouldn't affect your gameplay. The fact that any lag exists is a problem for me.
    But if it doesn't affect gameplay, how would you ever know? I'm not claiming my LCD is in any way special, but I already gave a good example, which was similar to your PunchOut. I basically know Hammerin' Harry by heart, and I used to play it on a CRT. I would be thrown off by any lag, since some of the stunts I usually do, require perfect timing. Yet, I can play it just fine. Same goes for bullet hell games. I'm a huge Ketsui fan, and if there was any lag that affected my gameplay, I would just get destroyed.

    Summing up, I am aware that LCDs aren't and never will be like CRTs, but even if a difference in picture display speed exists and is in some way measurable, but doesn't affect the gameplay at all, who cares? Plus, no scaler will ever fix that. This kind of makes me want to dig up a CRT VGA monitor I have in my basement just to do a comparison, but I don't know if I can be bothered to carry it upstairs.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morden View Post
    Excuse me? Won't allow it?

    I know, It's sad.

  6. #31
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    I used to be happy enough running 16bit stuff directly via RGB to LCD TVs. It was far from pretty but perfectly tolerable and without much lag.

    Even that option is gone for me now as neither of my latest TVs have scart inputs, never mind stuff like VGA.

    My pile of older consoles is now rotting away in storage boxes. If it aint HDMI, I can't play it.

    Are any of the dirt cheap HDMI upscalers on amazon remotely decent?

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    Morden, have you seen and/or used a Framemeister in person? While true that it isn't a perfect solution for every old system, it's still a pretty amazing little piece of hardware. Not sure I understand where the hate comes from.

    I look at it this way. In 30 years, when I want to play an old game and all the modern TVs have only Laser 7 connections, I'll be set as long as I have my Framemeister and an "old school LCD" with HDMI in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonwhistle View Post
    Are any of the dirt cheap HDMI upscalers on amazon remotely decent?
    Check out this video. If this is OK with you, go for it. It's the scaler I have [which I don't use, because my TV has SCART input, but games are definitely playable, as I've tested it with my PC monitor as well]. Don't bother with the affiliate link in video description. Get it from Aliexpress. It's this one. Interestingly enough, it can scale Sonic 2's split-screen just fine. Something Framemeister can't do.

    Quote Originally Posted by glazball View Post
    Morden, have you seen and/or used a Framemeister in person? While true that it isn't a perfect solution for every old system, it's still a pretty amazing little piece of hardware. Not sure I understand where the hate comes from.
    Oh, there's no hate. I've seen a lot of videos, reviews, comparisons, you name it. I'm just not completely sold given its price and some issues. Paying that kind of money to me would mean "the only scaler you'd ever need", but it seems it still has its issues. I've seen jittery picture because of some sync issues, I know it doesn't support wonky resolutions, like the aforementioned Sonic 2 split-screen, it doesn't like games switching resolution between game screen and pause menu, and so on. It's just a bit frustrating to have these issues in 2017 with something that costs this much.

    Honestly, I'm leaning towards OSSC and have been for a while, but people say that compatibility with TVs is a gamble, which doesn't sound good at all. Plus, OSSC has issues of its own.

  9. #34
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    The OSSC works the very best with computer monitors as they are more flexible in their video standards.
    Check out Todd's Nerd Cave on Youtube!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Morden View Post
    But if it doesn't affect gameplay, how would you ever know?
    In at least the instance of Punch-Out, I can tell the difference in gameplay. Most games (Mario, Zelda, whatever) I can't perceive any difference, and don't really mind playing on an LCD. But just knowing there's any being introduced frustrates me since I have at least the one game where lag will destroy my skills.

    I think more than anything, in the case of my example, it's the fact that Tyson just barely gives you enough time to react, even on a lag-free CRT. When it comes to gaming in general on LCD, just knowing it makes a difference in the one game for me makes me question if I'd do better on a CRT. Realistically, in 99% of games? The answer is a hard no. But the thought just drives me crazy, and playing on a CRT means I can really only blame myself for fucking up. Or, at the very least, removes the TV from the list of things I could blame.

  11. #36
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    One of my go to's for testing lag is Alien Crush or other pinball games.

    I use both lcd and crts.

    OSSC & XRGB3 for different sets. Like my 50" Vizio only runs OSSC 3 and up. It doesn't like the xrgb3 or my old mini.
    Last edited by Syn; 10-31-2017 at 08:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn View Post
    One of my go to's for testing lag is Alien Crush or other pinball games.

    I use both lcd and crts.

    OSSC & XRGB3 for different sets. Like my 50" Vizio only runs OSSC 3 and up. It doesn't like the xrgb3 or my old mini.
    Another good lag test is Punch Out. If your having a hard time landing the gut punch against Bald Bull, It's lag. Mike Tyson is the ultimate test but people have a hard time playing against him even when it's lag free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAZ_HOE! View Post
    Another good lag test is Punch Out. If your having a hard time landing the gut punch against Bald Bull, It's lag. Mike Tyson is the ultimate test but people have a hard time playing against him even when it's lag free.
    I couldnt believe the lag on the SNES mini. Super Mario World was completely unplayable. TV was on game mode and all enhancement bollocks turned off
    Spice god of Borneo...


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    Quote Originally Posted by glazball View Post
    Morden, have you seen and/or used a Framemeister in person? While true that it isn't a perfect solution for every old system, it's still a pretty amazing little piece of hardware. Not sure I understand where the hate comes from.
    It's the price. These people have Framemeister envy and they just aren't willing to bite the bullet. These are the same people who will be looking for a Framemeister in the coming years when they're no longer being made, unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morden View Post
    Check out this video. If this is OK with you, go for it. It's the scaler I have [which I don't use, because my TV has SCART input, but games are definitely playable, as I've tested it with my PC monitor as well]. Don't bother with the affiliate link in video description. Interestingly enough, it can scale Sonic 2's split-screen just fine. Something Framemeister can't do.
    Lol recommending that scaler from the figure it out fagger productions. It doesn't even detect 240p right and has pretty bad lag. I remember reading it being around 3-5 frames on top of your tvs native input lag. OSSC input lag is nonexistent (around 1-2 scanlines if I remember correctly), Framemeister is like 20ms/1frame. Honestly you would be better off buying a nice used DVDO Edge vs that SCART to HDMI converter as it can do proper deinterlacing and 240p/480i with minor ringing. As an added bonus it even acts as a HDMI hub!

    Funny video of phonedork trying to play mega man with the scaler at 16:00 with special guest appearance of Drakon's legendary modding!



    real talk the OSSC and Framemeister are awesome for 240p, 480i however leaves much to be desired. Anyway you slice and dice it you will be getting 2-3 frames of lag with a good quality deinterlacer unless you like having a flickery mess. But yeah I don't think there will be a nice solution for 240p/480i black screen on games that switch video modes. From what I've read up you can only really minimize it.
    Last edited by ChuChu Flamingo; 11-01-2017 at 09:52 AM.


    he spends hundreds on scarves, of course he's a fag and then ChuChu Flamingo preserved the aftermath in a plastic case making sure it wasn't exposed to unstable air
    You're just upset that you're too goddam stupid to understand the games and whiff infinites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morden View Post
    Check out this video. If this is OK with you, go for it.
    I bought one of those 3-4 years ago. I recall noticeable input delay when using it. Others mileage may vary and it might not bother them, but not for me. Sent it back for the refund.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joala View Post
    I couldnt believe the lag on the SNES mini. Super Mario World was completely unplayable. TV was on game mode and all enhancement bollocks turned off
    Yea, alot of people now in days are playing with scalers so they are use to the lag. For those who never fully committed and always played on Crt's, It's a problem. People need to remember that it's not just the scaler that could cause lag but also the TV. They say the ossc is lag free but if you hook it up to a TV that has bad input lag, your going to notice it.

    I always have my TV set to dynamic so I get that nice bright colorful picture on tv. Having to know set to game mode and now the picture doesn't look great just so I don't notice input lag as much makes no sense.

    People need to start posting TV input lag results just as much as scaler results so people could buy the right combo. I'm not ready to replace my 50inch Samsung just so I could play retro games on it but maybe some people will.

    Thanks for the heads up on the Mini, I know now to avoid it.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAZ_HOE! View Post
    [...]why I still do my old school gaming on a crt monitor. Plug and Play, no messing around with settings, looks awesome and zero lag.
    well, to be fair: if you're switching consoles/PCBs a lot, you will likely either be messing with the service menu a lot too or have some parts of the screen unused with some of your games... I'd still go with a CRT every time I have the choice, been happy I migrated from the GBS (+SyncStrike&SLG3000) to a PVM, but it's not all hassle free as well. Plus these old screens do have the downside of potentially dying soon. And I understand the OPs frustration that there isn't a more perfect solution given the time we live in and how large the "retro" faggotry has gotten. But in the end it's best to just play your games and not worry too much about video/sound/lag instead of spending weeks having headaches over pixel perfection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xsq View Post
    well, to be fair: if you're switching consoles/PCBs a lot, you will likely either be messing with the service menu a lot too or have some parts of the screen unused with some of your games... I'd still go with a CRT every time I have the choice, been happy I migrated from the GBS (+SyncStrike&SLG3000) to a PVM, but it's not all hassle free as well. Plus these old screens do have the downside of potentially dying soon. And I understand the OPs frustration that there isn't a more perfect solution given the time we live in and how large the "retro" faggotry has gotten. But in the end it's best to just play your games and not worry too much about video/sound/lag instead of spending weeks having headaches over pixel perfection.
    Yea, I'm not sure if there are arcade boards out there that need to have the screen adjusted. I Never had to adjust anything on my pvm with the stuff I own and thats PCE Duo, Sega MD/Genny, Neo Aes, SFC/Snes, NES/FC, Saturn, Dreamcast, CMVS, PS1, PS2.

    Arcade Boards I've used or own without the need for any adjustments at all, maybe just contrast with my Sigma Supergun are Atomiswave, PGM, CPS1, CPS2, CPS3.

    I could plug and play to any of my PVM/BVM/Ikegami monitors and not need to adjust the geometry. It just works plug and play.

    Im pretty sure for those serious arcade board collectors, that they probably run into these issues with having to adjust settings but I never had to going in with straight scart to the scart switch.

    On my otherbsetup which is a Sony GDM-Fw900 with XRGB3, sometimes XRGB2, I need to sometimes do some minor adjustments to the Geometry.

  20. #45
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    As already stated, one of the major issues with CRTs is that this stuff is old. Really old. They could crap out at any time and at that point good luck trying to repair them.

    Best you can do is get a tube with low hours of operation and do a preventive recap to avoid issues in the future.

    The OSSC is a godsend for people who want to play older stuff on modern LCDs.

    CRTs are dying and no one is producing them anymore, so it's important that a viable alternative exists.

    Of course, the OSSC can be improved, for example with a control that "reads" the frequency and spec of the signal and tries to guess what is outputting it and adjust settings accordingly.

    IMHO, the main goal is to have a tool which enables us to have a scaler which adds next to no lag and does a respectable job to upscale the source image (clear, sharp image, option to add scanlines with different width and transparency, etc...) and *THEN* make improvements on the usability part so that even n00bs with no experience can use it happily without fiddling with settings and adjustments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morden View Post
    Check out this video. If this is OK with you, go for it. It's the scaler I have [which I don't use, because my TV has SCART input, but games are definitely playable, as I've tested it with my PC monitor as well]. Don't bother with the affiliate link in video description. Get it from Aliexpress. It's this one. Interestingly enough, it can scale Sonic 2's split-screen just fine. Something Framemeister can't do.
    Thanks, that one looks good in the video and is cheap enough to take a chance on.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAZ_HOE! View Post
    Yea, alot of people now in days are playing with scalers so they are use to the lag. For those who never fully committed and always played on Crt's, It's a problem. People need to remember that it's not just the scaler that could cause lag but also the TV. They say the ossc is lag free but if you hook it up to a TV that has bad input lag, your going to notice it.

    I always have my TV set to dynamic so I get that nice bright colorful picture on tv. Having to know set to game mode and now the picture doesn't look great just so I don't notice input lag as much makes no sense.

    People need to start posting TV input lag results just as much as scaler results so people could buy the right combo. I'm not ready to replace my 50inch Samsung just so I could play retro games on it but maybe some people will.

    Thanks for the heads up on the Mini, I know now to avoid it.
    Dude, the dynamic setting is invariably the worst picture setting on any TV. It's a preset for dazzling browsers in bright showrooms and seriously compromises picture quality. Warm or Cinema are usually the best or better yet create a custom option from using the settings recommended for your model by the AV nazis on various forums. Once your eyes adjust I'll bet you'd never go back to dynamic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAZ_HOE! View Post
    I Never had to adjust anything on my pvm with the stuff I own and thats PCE Duo, Sega MD/Genny, Neo Aes, SFC/Snes, NES/FC, Saturn, Dreamcast, CMVS, PS1, PS2. Arcade Boards I've used or own without the need for any adjustments at all, maybe just contrast with my Sigma Supergun are Atomiswave, PGM, CPS1, CPS2, CPS3. I could plug and play to any of my PVM/BVM/Ikegami monitors and not need to adjust the geometry. It just works plug and play.
    Hm, maybe my PVMs are just weird then... sometimes the edge of the picture is cut off, sometimes there's black borders when I switch consoles... or maybe it's the difference between PAL60 and NTSC60 signals they don't like. So I guess I was wrong - need to investigate further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xsq View Post
    Hm, maybe my PVMs are just weird then... sometimes the edge of the picture is cut off, sometimes there's black borders when I switch consoles... or maybe it's the difference between PAL60 and NTSC60 signals they don't like. So I guess I was wrong - need to investigate further.
    Yea, I don't get the black borders, usually fits my screen with no boarders. I notice it a little on the Genny but not enough to mess with the Geometry on the monitor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonwhistle View Post
    Thanks, that one looks good in the video and is cheap enough to take a chance on.



    Dude, the dynamic setting is invariably the worst picture setting on any TV. It's a preset for dazzling browsers in bright showrooms and seriously compromises picture quality. Warm or Cinema are usually the best or better yet create a custom option from using the settings recommended for your model by the AV nazis on various forums. Once your eyes adjust I'll bet you'd never go back to dynamic.
    Really? I tried changing to different settings on my TV and the one that has the brighter picture clearer picture is dynamic. All the other Pre-Sets the picture looks dim. I think it's Dynamic that I have it set to but I could be wrong. I know it's the bright colorful one. I know if I put it on Game Mode I lose a ton of clarity.

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    I think the settings differ set to set. On my Samsung, dynamic looks great. My Vizio needs cinema, I believe.

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