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  1. #126
    Master Cylinder Evil Wasabi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    Every time you use a power tool you're holding the equipment that destroyed a million jobs. Every time you turn on a computer, a billion jobs, maybe more, who knows. Who is to say the current level of automation that you exploit is ok but future automation makes people dicks?

    I used two drivers to pick up cars for me, one to drop him off, the other to drive the second car back. I recently bought a tow truck and now I only need one driver. I made no money, now I make slightly more than no money, the assumption that automation is driven by nefarious billionaires is naive. Have a pension pot? If so, a large part of that money will be invested in the companies doing what you hate. You are that nefarious billionaire.

    Robots build cars, computers and conveyor belts sort mail, ATMs dish out cash - you have lived your whole life in the exact dystopian future feared 100 years ago by someone who was thinking the exact thoughts you are right now. The result - record employment levels.

    I'm happy for you that your industry has the slack in it to allow inefficiency but many, many do not.
    Sounds like you just don't know how to run a business.
    All creature will die and all the things will be broken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I didn't even talk about how you live in a shack and shit in the fucking forest.
    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I mean, at least I didn't say your wife should divorce you or comment on your need to play RE while shitting or whatever else was said.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Wasabi View Post
    Sounds like you just don't know how to run a business.
    Then you've misheard.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    Every time you use a power tool you're holding the equipment that destroyed a million jobs. Every time you turn on a computer, a billion jobs, maybe more, who knows. Who is to say the current level of automation that you exploit is ok but future automation makes people dicks?

    I used two drivers to pick up cars for me, one to drop him off, the other to drive the second car back. I recently bought a tow truck and now I only need one driver. I made no money, now I make slightly more than no money, the assumption that automation is driven by nefarious billionaires is naive. Have a pension pot? If so, a large part of that money will be invested in the companies doing what you hate. You are that nefarious billionaire.

    Robots build cars, computers and conveyor belts sort mail, ATMs dish out cash - you have lived your whole life in the exact dystopian future feared 100 years ago by someone who was thinking the exact thoughts you are right now. The result - record employment levels.

    I'm happy for you that your industry has the slack in it to allow inefficiency but many, many do not.
    How many scribes had to be put out of work when literacy improved?

    Glassblower strikes were common in the 1880s. I found accounts of 3 on the first page of search results from the New York Times archive. Without getting into the merits of labor unions, it should be easy to see why automation is desired by ownership over people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass,..._mechanization

    fakeXsound's media projects are probably difficult to automate. Or, if not, he is probably saying he can produce premium content at a premium cost so that he can pay the people on his projects. None of these things are exclusive. You can't say you want to keep everyone employed and compete on cost. It simply won't happen. This is the old business trope of low prices, high quality, great service; pick two.

    He also says he would rather deal with a person. That's fine. I'd rather not. If given the choice of calling or e-mailing someone to accomplish a task, I choose e-mail every time. I actively limit my face time with people. I have no desire for idle chit-chat (except on n-g.com of course).

    If I read VT right, I think I agree with him. I wouldn't say that automation is humanity's savior. I know a lot of talk gets put into this wonderful, idyllic 'future' where robots do all the work and people somehow reap the benefits. I would say that automation is practically unavoidable. Capital only cares about costs, if output is the same and cost is lower for A over B, you're going with A. Unless for some reason B is a personal charity case for you. In which case that's fine, as long as you are able to admit it.
    Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rot View Post
    That some of the 'murikanz population are awesome dumb...

    xROTx
    You voted for brexit


    What a long, strange trip it's been. And still we roll down this baffling road, missing those who have left us. Daisuke Jigen, Sifl, SNK4EVER, Nightmare_Tony, Boog, Zero Satori. Gone but not forgotten.

  5. #130
    Master Cylinder Evil Wasabi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    Then you've misheard.
    “I made no money, now I make slightly more than no money”

    Sounds like a terrible business person.
    All creature will die and all the things will be broken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I didn't even talk about how you live in a shack and shit in the fucking forest.
    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I mean, at least I didn't say your wife should divorce you or comment on your need to play RE while shitting or whatever else was said.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Wasabi View Post
    “I made no money, now I make slightly more than no money”

    Sounds like a terrible business person.
    If only it was that simple.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    Every time you use a power tool you're holding the equipment that destroyed a million jobs. Every time you turn on a computer, a billion jobs, maybe more, who knows. Who is to say the current level of automation that you exploit is ok but future automation makes people dicks?

    I used two drivers to pick up cars for me, one to drop him off, the other to drive the second car back. I recently bought a tow truck and now I only need one driver. I made no money, now I make slightly more than no money, the assumption that automation is driven by nefarious billionaires is naive. Have a pension pot? If so, a large part of that money will be invested in the companies doing what you hate. You are that nefarious billionaire.

    Robots build cars, computers and conveyor belts sort mail, ATMs dish out cash - you have lived your whole life in the exact dystopian future feared 100 years ago by someone who was thinking the exact thoughts you are right now. The result - record employment levels.

    I'm happy for you that your industry has the slack in it to allow inefficiency but many, many do not.
    Ask a buggy whip salesman how cars worked out for him.

  8. #133
    Master Cylinder Evil Wasabi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    If only it was that simple.
    sure.

    We are living in a dystopia where you may think that employment is high, but it's also very abstract. People are performing jobs that would be completely uncontemplated even by Dickens, in order to pay off purchases for things that are completely unnecessary. We employ people to pave roads poorly in order to keep them employed at the tax payer's expense. When the tax budget is exhausted, the unemployment is increased. We teeter between seeking governance in harsh realism or feckless idealism - feckless because the realism has rotted the system to the roots. Want to fix health care? Not if the lobbyists, retained by the existing medical industry, have anything to say about it. Want to provide a clean energy car that won't require consumers purchase through a middle-man? The NADA and automotive lobbyists will fight tooth and nail to stop that too. In short, the jobs will be more and more automated, and the workforce will be retasked into more and more menial, mindless, and useless labor, to achieve useless and grotesque material acquisitions. Every episode of Black Mirror that has not yet materialized in real life, shall eventually, so long as we simply eat the twinkies that we are offered by this world.
    All creature will die and all the things will be broken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I didn't even talk about how you live in a shack and shit in the fucking forest.
    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I mean, at least I didn't say your wife should divorce you or comment on your need to play RE while shitting or whatever else was said.

  9. #134
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    "You know what Mega-City One is Dredd? It's a fucking meatgrinder. People go in one end, and the meat comes out the other. We just turn the handle." —Judge Lex

  10. #135
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  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Wasabi View Post
    sure.

    We are living in a dystopia where you may think that employment is high, but it's also very abstract. People are performing jobs that would be completely uncontemplated even by Dickens, in order to pay off purchases for things that are completely unnecessary. We employ people to pave roads poorly in order to keep them employed at the tax payer's expense. When the tax budget is exhausted, the unemployment is increased. We teeter between seeking governance in harsh realism or feckless idealism - feckless because the realism has rotted the system to the roots. Want to fix health care? Not if the lobbyists, retained by the existing medical industry, have anything to say about it. Want to provide a clean energy car that won't require consumers purchase through a middle-man? The NADA and automotive lobbyists will fight tooth and nail to stop that too. In short, the jobs will be more and more automated, and the workforce will be retasked into more and more menial, mindless, and useless labor, to achieve useless and grotesque material acquisitions. Every episode of Black Mirror that has not yet materialized in real life, shall eventually, so long as we simply eat the twinkies that we are offered by this world.
    It's fair to say that every new technology, mechanisation or automation has benefits for some people and negative consequences for others. Often unintended, sometimes not - yes, people are highly capable of putting profit before people.

    The crux of the matter is that I see the future as Star Trek and you see it as The Time Machine. If we'd had this disagreement 100 years ago I would have been right. Next 100 years, sure, you may well be right, let's see how it pans out.

    From my perspective though I find it difficult to imagine a democracy with open voting that allows everyone to be jobless while a handful of people coin it from a world of automated machines. Don't worry about technology, you can't slow that down, keep an eye on your politicians.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaThunder View Post
    Ask a buggy whip salesman how cars worked out for him.
    And who's job did the buggy whip salesman take?

  13. #138
    Master Cylinder Evil Wasabi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    The crux of the matter is that I see the future as Star Trek and you see it as The Time Machine.
    lol?

    hahahahahahahahahaha
    All creature will die and all the things will be broken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I didn't even talk about how you live in a shack and shit in the fucking forest.
    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I mean, at least I didn't say your wife should divorce you or comment on your need to play RE while shitting or whatever else was said.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Wasabi View Post
    lol?

    hahahahahahahahahaha
    I warn you my significant back catalogue of sci-fi analogies are set to kill.

  15. #140
    Master Cylinder Evil Wasabi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    I warn you my significant back catalogue of sci-fi analogies are set to kill.
    how is Star Trek an ideal?

    It's the furthest thing from one.

    and besides, it's not sci-fi, it's fantasy. There's hardly any science whatsoever in the gene roddenbury space opera.
    All creature will die and all the things will be broken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I didn't even talk about how you live in a shack and shit in the fucking forest.
    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I mean, at least I didn't say your wife should divorce you or comment on your need to play RE while shitting or whatever else was said.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    It's fair to say that every new technology, mechanisation or automation has benefits for some people and negative consequences for others. Often unintended, sometimes not - yes, people are highly capable of putting profit before people.

    The crux of the matter is that I see the future as Star Trek and you see it as The Time Machine. If we'd had this disagreement 100 years ago I would have been right. Next 100 years, sure, you may well be right, let's see how it pans out.

    From my perspective though I find it difficult to imagine a democracy with open voting that allows everyone to be jobless while a handful of people coin it from a world of automated machines. Don't worry about technology, you can't slow that down, keep an eye on your politicians.
    I'd say you live in a small business fantasy world.

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    Every time you use a power tool you're holding the equipment that destroyed a million jobs. Every time you turn on a computer, a billion jobs, maybe more, who knows. Who is to say the current level of automation that you exploit is ok but future automation makes people dicks?
    The process of creating a power tool requires more workers and resources than a manual tool. Power tools have enabled people to work faster, make more customers, etc. So I don't know where you're going with this.

    Computers did not wipe out as many jobs as you think. Accountants still account; they just do so on a computer. Film editors still edit; they just do so on a computer. Writers still write. You get the idea. Not only that, but computers and the Internet are a tool of self-improvement and dissemination of information. Computers have upskilled everyone. The playing field may not be even, but nearly everyone in the civilized world has benefited.

    What societal good will automated cash registers, drive-thrus, and combines do?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    I used two drivers to pick up cars for me, one to drop him off, the other to drive the second car back. I recently bought a tow truck and now I only need one driver. I made no money, now I make slightly more than no money, the assumption that automation is driven by nefarious billionaires is naive. Have a pension pot? If so, a large part of that money will be invested in the companies doing what you hate. You are that nefarious billionaire.
    As others have pointed out, you don't seem like you're good at running a business.

    Regarding pensions, stock market, consumer goods, I'll concede that point. I, in certain ways, support the corporations that I hate. My point would be that we have to choose our battles. If I were to act in a 100% idealist fashion, I'd be out on the streets. Paraphrasing Guy Debord, surrender to the machine brings liberation. But you don't have to hand your life over to Comcast.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    Robots build cars, computers and conveyor belts sort mail, ATMs dish out cash - you have lived your whole life in the exact dystopian future feared 100 years ago by someone who was thinking the exact thoughts you are right now. The result - record employment levels.
    Sheesh. You sound like a Republican. Yup, we have record employment levels over here. You know what else we have? Record disparity between the poor and the rich. Before I started my own business, I was working for a small agency. My CEO, whose job was basically to schmooze other CEOs, paid herself enough to have a townhouse in the city, all the latest bullshit, ate expensive foods, the whole nine yards. I was literally eating cans of black beans twice a week despite working 80 hours a week and bringing in millions of dollars for the company. I'm never going to be like my former CEO.


    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    I'm happy for you that your industry has the slack in it to allow inefficiency but many, many do not.
    Oh dear, I think you've missed my entire point. Slack is what it all comes down to. There's SO MUCH slack. Do you think the corporations who are firing elderly cashiers and autistic baggers don't have millions (billions?) to spare? They do. But they want to trim as much fat as they possibly can. And again, they're not going to pass the savings onto you. They're going to pass it onto their bowtie-wearing, polo-playing, pointdexter Ivy League son when they kick the bucket and are buried in their golden casket.

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by fakeXsound View Post
    The process of creating a power tool requires more workers and resources than a manual tool. Power tools have enabled people to work faster, make more customers, etc. So I don't know where you're going with this.

    Computers did not wipe out as many jobs as you think. Accountants still account; they just do so on a computer. Film editors still edit; they just do so on a computer. Writers still write. You get the idea. Not only that, but computers and the Internet are a tool of self-improvement and dissemination of information. Computers have upskilled everyone. The playing field may not be even, but nearly everyone in the civilized world has benefited.

    What societal good will automated cash registers, drive-thrus, and combines do?
    Yes, new technology creates new jobs at the same time as destroying old jobs. Where I was going with it is exactly where you've gone with it.

    As for societal good, ATMs - customer choice? Cash in the middle of the night? Drive-thrus - quicker service? The biggest time saving invention for women in the last 60 years was convenience food, time saved on preparing food has literally changed women's lives and therefore the workplace. Unintended consequence.



    Quote Originally Posted by fakeXsound View Post
    As others have pointed out, you don't seem like you're good at running a business.
    Yes but they were just cheap shots. You know full well about growth and business life cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by fakeXsound View Post
    Regarding pensions, stock market, consumer goods, I'll concede that point. I, in certain ways, support the corporations that I hate. My point would be that we have to choose our battles. If I were to act in a 100% idealist fashion, I'd be out on the streets. Paraphrasing Guy Debord, surrender to the machine brings liberation. But you don't have to hand your life over to Comcast.
    Fair enough.



    Quote Originally Posted by fakeXsound View Post
    Sheesh. You sound like a Republican. Yup, we have record employment levels over here. You know what else we have? Record disparity between the poor and the rich. Before I started my own business, I was working for a small agency. My CEO, whose job was basically to schmooze other CEOs, paid herself enough to have a townhouse in the city, all the latest bullshit, ate expensive foods, the whole nine yards. I was literally eating cans of black beans twice a week despite working 80 hours a week and bringing in millions of dollars for the company. I'm never going to be like my former CEO.
    You don't have to be like your former CEO. Being made redundant and therefore free to go and find another job is completely different from being manipulated into working double your contracted hours for below market remuneration. This seems to be an American problem by the way, it's not something we see much of in Europe.


    Quote Originally Posted by fakeXsound View Post
    Oh dear, I think you've missed my entire point. Slack is what it all comes down to. There's SO MUCH slack. Do you think the corporations who are firing elderly cashiers and autistic baggers don't have millions (billions?) to spare? They do. But they want to trim as much fat as they possibly can. And again, they're not going to pass the savings onto you. They're going to pass it onto their bowtie-wearing, polo-playing, pointdexter Ivy League son when they kick the bucket and are buried in their golden casket.
    Supermarkets work on between 1-3% margin (what margin do you work on?), customers demand low prices and we get them. Food prices have been falling in real terms for decades. If they find a way to eke out an extra 0.5% their shareholders (you and I) and their customers demand it because if they don't someone else will and then they will be behind the curve. Your impression of what happens is just that - an impression - and it's wrong.

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by fakeXsound View Post
    The process of creating a power tool requires more workers and resources than a manual tool. Power tools have enabled people to work faster, make more customers, etc. So I don't know where you're going with this.

    Computers did not wipe out as many jobs as you think. Accountants still account; they just do so on a computer. Film editors still edit; they just do so on a computer. Writers still write. You get the idea. Not only that, but computers and the Internet are a tool of self-improvement and dissemination of information. Computers have upskilled everyone. The playing field may not be even, but nearly everyone in the civilized world has benefited.

    What societal good will automated cash registers, drive-thrus, and combines do?
    The fuck is this shit?

    Stupid or naive? Pick one.
    Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Wasabi View Post
    how is Star Trek an ideal?
    It is not ideal until after WWIII and those 600 million people are killed.

    dude, you're awful at this, you didn't even tried.
    This forum requires that you wait 60 seconds between posts. Please try again in 1 seconds.

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripredacus View Post
    It is not ideal until after WWIII and those 600 million people are killed.
    You think we can only kill <10% of the world's population during WW3? C'mon, we can do better than that.
    Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    Yes, new technology creates new jobs at the same time as destroying old jobs. Where I was going with it is exactly where you've gone with it.

    As for societal good, ATMs - customer choice? Cash in the middle of the night? Drive-thrus - quicker service? The biggest time saving invention for women in the last 60 years was convenience food, time saved on preparing food has literally changed women's lives and therefore the workplace. Unintended consequence.
    I think the fact that you think we're talking about the same thing shows we're clearly not on the same wavelength. What I'm saying is that there are tiers of automation, obsolescence, etc. Some bring improvements with minimal downsides. Others have huge consequences, unintended or otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    You don't have to be like your former CEO. Being made redundant and therefore free to go and find another job is completely different from being manipulated into working double your contracted hours for below market remuneration. This seems to be an American problem by the way, it's not something we see much of in Europe.
    It's not that I didn't like her; it's that we were being exploited. My point was in response to your point about record employment levels, not to people losing their jobs to automation. Point being that while, yes, employment is at a high point, it doesn't mean it's all roses. It still means that 75+% of people are still just scraping by.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    Supermarkets work on between 1-3% margin (what margin do you work on?), customers demand low prices and we get them. Food prices have been falling in real terms for decades. If they find a way to eke out an extra 0.5% their shareholders (you and I) and their customers demand it because if they don't someone else will and then they will be behind the curve. Your impression of what happens is just that - an impression - and it's wrong.
    Yes, they do, but remember that they sell in volume. People spend hundreds per week on groceries and those are repeat customers; they're back on a weekly or semi-weekly basis. (Some sell certain items at a loss and recoup those losses through marked up luxury items like certain cheeses and stuff like that.) My margins are much higher because while almost all of my clients and sub-clients are repeat customers, they're not dedicating 10% of their business' profits to me, like a family would to a grocery store. I could take another cheap shot at your business acumen here, but I won't.

    Obviously, we have very different perceptions of reality. I don't engage religious people in debates on whether or not god exists because there's just zero common ground and neither person is going to be shifted in either direction. Feels like the same in this scenario.

    PS: Classic Lithy.

    Edit: Interesting that you said that overworking is a US thing. It's so funny when that's brought up over here. You either get a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" lecture, or you get "Well, look at Greece! They had relaxed work weeks and they're broke!" There's no ration discussion as to avoiding psychological and emotional suicide via overwork. People are miserable in Boston. There's so much angst regarding sports, even when the Boston / New England teams are winning, and everyone is overworked. Bad combo.
    Last edited by fakeXsound; 02-21-2018 at 11:43 PM.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by fakeXsound View Post
    I think the fact that you think we're talking about the same thing shows we're clearly not on the same wavelength. What I'm saying is that there are tiers of automation, obsolescence, etc. Some bring improvements with minimal downsides. Others have huge consequences, unintended or otherwise.




    It's not that I didn't like her; it's that we were being exploited. My point was in response to your point about record employment levels, not to people losing their jobs to automation. Point being that while, yes, employment is at a high point, it doesn't mean it's all roses. It still means that 75+% of people are still just scraping by.



    Yes, they do, but remember that they sell in volume. People spend hundreds per week on groceries and those are repeat customers; they're back on a weekly or semi-weekly basis. (Some sell certain items at a loss and recoup those losses through marked up luxury items like certain cheeses and stuff like that.) My margins are much higher because while almost all of my clients and sub-clients are repeat customers, they're not dedicating 10% of their business' profits to me, like a family would to a grocery store. I could take another cheap shot at your business acumen here, but I won't.

    Obviously, we have very different perceptions of reality. I don't engage religious people in debates on whether or not god exists because there's just zero common ground and neither person is going to be shifted in either direction. Feels like the same in this scenario.

    PS: Classic Lithy.

    Edit: Interesting that you said that overworking is a US thing. It's so funny when that's brought up over here. You either get a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" lecture, or you get "Well, look at Greece! They had relaxed work weeks and they're broke!" There's no ration discussion as to avoiding psychological and emotional suicide via overwork. People are miserable in Boston. There's so much angst regarding sports, even when the Boston / New England teams are winning, and everyone is overworked. Bad combo.
    I don't know why I always end up in these huge multiquote debates (probably because I enjoy them even though I know they piss everyone else off), but you seem like a nice guy and that's enough for me.

    Onwards and upwards amigo.

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNK View Post
    I don't know why I always end up in these huge multiquote debates (probably because I enjoy them even though I know they piss everyone else off), but you seem like a nice guy and that's enough for me.

    Onwards and upwards amigo.
    Likewise. ¡Vamanos!

  25. #150
    Master Cylinder Evil Wasabi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaThunder View Post
    Bali Mangthi Kali Ma. Shakthi Degi Kali Ma.
    All creature will die and all the things will be broken.

    Neo Geo Dip Switch wiki page

    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I didn't even talk about how you live in a shack and shit in the fucking forest.
    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I mean, at least I didn't say your wife should divorce you or comment on your need to play RE while shitting or whatever else was said.

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