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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I think the real question you need to be asking is: Would you be willing to do what "the rest of the goddamn industrialized world" has done in order to get a single payer system started?
    Yes, because it must be done. You cannot simultaneously say that a sick man deserves treatment regardless of his finances, and that a market will be used to price health care. They are mutually exclusive - and I consider a system that turns away the poor to be a failure case.
    I turned off signatures. So should you.

  2. #52
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    Once again, only six countries have a healthcare system that can be called single payer.
    There was no immunity to cuckoo ideas on Earth.
    Here was the reason human beings could not reject ideas because they were bad: "Ideas on Earth were badges of friendship or enmity.
    Their content didn't matter. Friends agreed with friends, in order to express friendliness. Enemies disagreed with enemies, in order to express enmity.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by norton9478 View Post
    Once again, only six countries have a healthcare system that can be called single payer.
    You're right - I'm being overly narrow on that point. Let's say "universal basic level of care funded by taxes".
    I turned off signatures. So should you.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpamYouToDeath View Post
    You're right - I'm being overly narrow on that point. Let's say "universal basic level of care funded by taxes".
    why by taxes? healthcare or the insurance shouldn't be provided by the government, that would lead to a decline in quality.

    I live in Switzerland, we pay A LOT for healthcare but the coverage is very good (almost too good, people can sometimes get cosmetic surgery for stuff that's not very medical).
    Here, it's a mandatory insurance, there's a quasi-market to select your insurance company, but their freedom to set prices is limited by a tight governmental control (they shouldn't take too much risk, calculate correctly, yadda, yadda, yadda). also, there is a universal fund to even out losses that insurers generate because of their customer base being especially sick/expensive.

    what doesn't work imho is having an insurance system in a market-environement (I know, healthcare isn't a real market, at least it isn't in Switzerland) -- in a market-driven environement, players want to maximize their income and that's what they do. people pay that out of their pockets - just that a doctor can get his 2nd Ferrari or another Porsche. I'm actually amazed that no one really critizices that. Still - I wouldn't know how to change it for the better, because it not only gets more expensive because doctors want more money, but also because people want more and more complex and expensive treatments.

    tl;dr: healthcare should be a risk-insurance that you always can afford necessary treatment, but NOT for free and not for the fancy stuff.

  5. #55
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    In America, drug companies spend millions on millions to advertise cancer drugs on TV.
    Last edited by norton9478; 04-25-2017 at 04:43 PM.
    There was no immunity to cuckoo ideas on Earth.
    Here was the reason human beings could not reject ideas because they were bad: "Ideas on Earth were badges of friendship or enmity.
    Their content didn't matter. Friends agreed with friends, in order to express friendliness. Enemies disagreed with enemies, in order to express enmity.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksbrain View Post
    why by taxes? healthcare or the insurance shouldn't be provided by the government, that would lead to a decline in quality.

    I live in Switzerland, we pay A LOT for healthcare but the coverage is very good (almost too good, people can sometimes get cosmetic surgery for stuff that's not very medical).
    Here, it's a mandatory insurance, there's a quasi-market to select your insurance company, but their freedom to set prices is limited by a tight governmental control (they shouldn't take too much risk, calculate correctly, yadda, yadda, yadda). also, there is a universal fund to even out losses that insurers generate because of their customer base being especially sick/expensive.

    what doesn't work imho is having an insurance system in a market-environement (I know, healthcare isn't a real market, at least it isn't in Switzerland) -- in a market-driven environement, players want to maximize their income and that's what they do. people pay that out of their pockets - just that a doctor can get his 2nd Ferrari or another Porsche. I'm actually amazed that no one really critizices that. Still - I wouldn't know how to change it for the better, because it not only gets more expensive because doctors want more money, but also because people want more and more complex and expensive treatments.

    tl;dr: healthcare should be a risk-insurance that you always can afford necessary treatment, but NOT for free and not for the fancy stuff.
    Can healthcare be a utility?
    All creature will die and all the things will be broken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I didn't even talk about how you live in a shack and shit in the fucking forest.
    Quote Originally Posted by SonGohan View Post
    I mean, at least I didn't say your wife should divorce you or comment on your need to play RE while shitting or whatever else was said.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by norton9478 View Post
    In America, drug companies spend millions on millions to advertise cancer drugs on TV.
    that's interesting to know, in Switzerland, it's forbidden by law to advertise drugs, that are covered by general health insurance. Imagine those poor doctors having to explain again and again to desperate patients why that specific drug isn't going to help them...

    To the question if healthcare is a utility:
    I'm not sure what you mean by utility, imho, there should be a right for basic healthcare and a consensus what "basic" means, i.e. how much luxury everybody wants.

  8. #58
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    sorry, I think I cannot edit my post, just wanted to add to the last line: how much luxury everybody wants and is willing to pay for - even if he or she doesn't need it atm (a significant amount of costs in healthcare usually comes at the time when you are old and/or before you die, so it's difficult to see, why as a young and healthy person, you have to pay substantial amounts of health insurance)

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksbrain View Post
    why by taxes?
    Because leaving it up to the individual - to privately cover their medical expenses - doesn't work. The winning strategy in that case is to simply fail to pay, knowing you'll receive treatment regardless. If basic health care is a right, then it must be backed by government - i.e. funded with taxes. It's no different than police or fire departments.
    I turned off signatures. So should you.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksbrain View Post
    that's interesting to know, in Switzerland, it's forbidden by law to advertise drugs, that are covered by general health insurance. Imagine those poor doctors having to explain again and again to desperate patients why that specific drug isn't going to help them...

    To the question if healthcare is a utility:
    I'm not sure what you mean by utility, imho, there should be a right for basic healthcare and a consensus what "basic" means, i.e. how much luxury everybody wants.
    In America, in order to get approval for a drug you only need to show that it is "effective". It doesn't have to work as good as or better than an existing drug (in any capacity). So a little marketing goes a long ways. Especially when the patent on one drug is about to run out.
    There was no immunity to cuckoo ideas on Earth.
    Here was the reason human beings could not reject ideas because they were bad: "Ideas on Earth were badges of friendship or enmity.
    Their content didn't matter. Friends agreed with friends, in order to express friendliness. Enemies disagreed with enemies, in order to express enmity.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpamYouToDeath View Post
    Because leaving it up to the individual - to privately cover their medical expenses - doesn't work. The winning strategy in that case is to simply fail to pay, knowing you'll receive treatment regardless. If basic health care is a right, then it must be backed by government - i.e. funded with taxes. It's no different than police or fire departments.
    But doesn't that lead to a state-run healthcare system like the NHS in the UK? Maybe not immediately, but taxpayers will begin to question costs and then turn to the costs of drugs (especially new high end stuff) and doctor's salaries in the long run?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by norton9478 View Post
    In America, in order to get approval for a drug you only need to show that it is "effective". It doesn't have to work as good as or better than an existing drug (in any capacity). So a little marketing goes a long ways. Especially when the patent on one drug is about to run out.
    well, I'm all for a free market, but why would you market drugs to patients that don't have medical training? I mean, yeah, sure, you market it so that they create a demand for that specific product but they can't really judge if it is at all beneficial and appropriate for their situation?

    I think it's clear why there is a difference: if you pay medication out of your pocket, there's no economic reason not to allow ads, but if there is mandatory health insurance and everybody pays, it should be a doctor who decides what's best for the patient.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksbrain View Post
    But doesn't that lead to a state-run healthcare system like the NHS in the UK? Maybe not immediately, but taxpayers will begin to question costs and then turn to the costs of drugs (especially new high end stuff) and doctor's salaries in the long run?
    That's fine. I'd take the NHS in a heartbeat over what we've got now.

    Quote Originally Posted by nicksbrain View Post
    I think it's clear why there is a difference: if you pay medication out of your pocket, there's no economic reason not to allow ads
    Yes, there is. You're going to pop a bunch of pills you don't need, and end up incapacitated/disabled, and everyone else will get the bill after your bankruptcy. Overmedication is a serious problem.
    I turned off signatures. So should you.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpamYouToDeath View Post
    Yes, there is. You're going to pop a bunch of pills you don't need, and end up incapacitated/disabled, and everyone else will get the bill after your bankruptcy. Overmedication is a serious problem.
    well, sure, I was thinking the other way around (have unbiased patients in a system with universal healthcare.

  15. #65
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    Did McCain die on the way to the senate chamber or what.

  16. #66
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    48-2 right now. waiting on last 2 votes. one is mccain.

    edit. they both voted yes. here comes pence.
    Last edited by cdamm; 07-25-2017 at 02:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kpj View Post
    Sometimes, the customer doesn't always KNOW what's right.



  17. #67
    NEANDERTHAL FUCKER
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    McCain is there.

  18. #68
    NEANDERTHAL FUCKER
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    Johnson and McCain vote yes.

    Pence will tie break.

    We proceed to debate.

  19. #69
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    This is fucked up.

    This will likely be the final act for McCain, meaning he will be remembered for taking away millions of Americans' healthcare days after receiving taxpayer-funded, life-saving surgery. Scum.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kpj View Post
    Sometimes, the customer doesn't always KNOW what's right.



  21. #71
    NEANDERTHAL FUCKER
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    Uh, so maybe a repeal vote will be happening in like an hour?

    I thought there were 20 mandated hours of debate?
    Last edited by SML; 07-25-2017 at 07:36 PM. Reason: Typo

  22. #72
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    I really didn't think it would come to this, but can't say I'm surprised either. Nothing at this point should really surprise anyone when it come to politics these days.

    I'm pretty sure at this point, not only will Obama Care go away, but there will be no replacement. People will either be forced to shop for private health care, or just not have it. So things will kinda go back to how they were before Obama Care, but probably be worse. Just because that's how shit goes.
    http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=3430&dateline=1368194  997

  23. #73
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    Recent picture of GOP leaders post vote as they break to get lunch.

  24. #74
    NEANDERTHAL FUCKER
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    The vote tonight is for BRCA. Tomorrow a vote on straight repeal.

    Those will need 60 vote majorities and won't pass. Mostly intended, then, to see who stands where and get people on the record.
    Last edited by SML; 07-25-2017 at 09:03 PM. Reason: Typo

  25. #75
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    BRCA fails 43-57

    McCain was a "yea."

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