Any of you guys stream games? Need advice

AJtheMishima

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Not sure if I should of started this thread in another section. But I wanted to see how many of you guys stream the games you play.
I recently snatched up an Elgato HD for $20 locally from some dude that was having issues with it connecting and disconnecting from his pc constantly. I opened it up and just resoldered the usb jack and its all good now. So that was easy enough and i got a capture device for cheap.

So recently there has been a CvS2 scene growing in Houston. This friday there will be a tournament for both CvS2 and Vampire Savior. My friend thats hosting it heard i got the elgato and asked me if i wanted to stream the loser brackets for tournament. Since i picked up the elgato like a month ago i havent had time to mess with it. Ive just tested it on both a ps3 and ps2 to make sure its working. It does.
There is alot of info on the internet about streaming but I wanted to get any advice or personal experience from any of you guys on here that do this kind of thing. I have less than a week to get setup for this, I dont have to do it, but it would be cool to help out and do something for the local game scene. Especially since CvS2 deserves alot of love.

As far as the streaming side goes seems like OBS and Xplit are the two main choices for ppl to use for streaming. Would you guys recommend one over the other. Especially since im a noob to streaming and this will be my learning experience.

Thanks guys
 

evil wasabi

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I know ookitarepanda tried to stream a run thru of crono trigger a few weeks ago on twitch.
 

DanAdamKOF

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Gonna write out a few things that come to mind. I stream games I play on Twitch and I've streamed FG tournaments in the past. Huge braindump, and surprise, it's a damn wall of text because I just cannot do things otherwise it seems lol.

PS3 has HDCP fulltime. You can't split its HDMI and have it work, your El Gato will show an error (FAKE EDIT: You just said it works, so possibly ignore all this????? If you plugged it in through HDMI and it's fine then COOL!). Some very special cheapo Chinese HDMI splitters out there just so happen to strip HDCP while they split (I don't know them offhand) so those are an option. Some people use a HDFury to convert the split for capture to analog but that's old hat by now, if you run across any advice like that I'd ignore it. You could also run in the PS3 analog but I'm sure I don't need to tell you why that's a bad idea (assuming your players are using LCD).

OBS Studio is good. OBS Classic has niche uses and probably won't work well with the El Gato HD, you probably won't need it. If you don't like OBS, try out XSplit (not free, monthly fee I think, and I think there's a trial so you could ride that for the week really). There's also FFSplit which is free, but I haven't used it, and last I checked was behind OBS in basically every way. Telestream just released some similar game-centric video-compositing-and-streaming program which is probably worth a look, I've personally used Telestream Wirecast Pro in the past at my old job (wouldn't recommend for this) but based on how that runs, Telestream's new product should be ok. I know OBS best so basically everything I speak to will relate to that.

USB 2.0 devices (such as your El Gato HD) aren't great for streaming, if you want to do this seriously down the line you will want a DirectShow compliant device. You can get by with this, I think OBS Studio can read it directly, otherwise it's the super ghetto method of "bring up El Gato preview window, use OBS window capture, capture preview" method.

So, audio. I'm assuming you're not going to have a mixer. So the poverty method, you can use whatever PC headset you have lying around, and have your commentator wear that, and pray that the noise level at the tourney is reasonable enough to where your commentator won't get drowned out by it. You may need to use Virtual Audio Cable (not free but reasonable, $25) to feed the game's sound into his headphones. There's free alternatives to VAC but I haven't used them, can't speak to them. If you need multiple commentators then you may be able to ask around and borrow a USB headset or two, though if both need earphones and need to hear each other, you'll basically have to use VAC to route each others' output to their partner's headphones so they don't end up shouting into the mics just so they can hear each other over the venue noise. Definitely set the game audio pretty low, you want to hear it okay but the commentators should be clear. No one wants to strain to hear some guy that's drowned out by sound effects and stuff. One other option here is configuring your setup to "duck" the audio, which means when mic is active, game audio lowers. There's a program for this ($20?) called Auto Duck In Real Time which works great that I've personally seen the results of (I don't use it), there's free solutions too but I don't know much about them.

Webcams will depend on your budget and for a side-stream, probably doesn't really matter. Too much to get into, but at the least I will say: good lighting is #1 priority but you're probably not going to get that at the venue. Turn off all auto settings and adjust exposure as low as is tolerable and boost with gain and possibly brightness, if that still looks shitty then you're going to have to compromise. This is just commentators talking and players reacting so it doesn't need to be sexy smooth 720p60 (not that most cams will be 60, nearly all you'll see do 30) so don't fret if it's still a bit choppy because you had to turn exposure up a bit more than minimum.

Related to the above: Know your PC's USB root hub layout. You can overload the bandwidth easily with capture card + webcam or two with hi def output. If you have a desktop you can add a PCI/PCIe card with more slots and try to separate out the greedy devices. On a laptop you might just have to work with what you have, though USB 2.0 and 3.0 will be on different root hubs (if you have a laptop like mine which has both 3.0 and normal 2.0 ports), and if you have ExpressCard you can get USB 3.0 expresscards which will work as their own root hub.

This probably isn't so important for a small time stream, but I like to sync up my capture card/cameras/audio so everything is perfect. It'd be annoying for game audio to be a second behind realtime and your mics are realtime and your commentators are going "OH WOW THERE HE GOES WITH THE MIXUP" way before it actually happens. You can offset audio from realtime (only delay it, as otherwise you'd be time traveling) in OBS Studio's Mixer. So if you can get the audio inputs all in sync, and then add delay to webcams to make sure the commentator cam has lipsync with the headset, you'll have a much less slapped together looking stream.

Have a thorough idea of the venue's internet. When you get there, go on testmy.net and run a few upload tests, preferably spread apart a bit, and right before you go live, to know what you have to work with. You'll need to stream under that value, because if something or other saps your bandwidth your stream will choke, so if it says you have 2mbps up don't stream 2.0mbps, maybe more like 1.5mbps, that kinda thing. Best case scenario: They have wired LAN you can plug into and a fat pipe for upstream. Worst case: if it's all 2.4ghz Wifi and you're not the only stream there you might have to use poverty-spec settings (<480p, 300-500kbps, possibly 30fps if that's too blocky). No case: There's no internet and you'll need to use a 4G hotspot (use a calculator, if you know your bitrate and how long you will stream you can figure out if a 4G plan can accomodate you or will run short, remember 8 megabits = 1 megabyte) with poverty spec like the above, or maybe even worse. You definitely want to talk to the other people streaming (at least whoever's streaming the main stream) and find out what they know about the house internet and what their setup will be like. If there's 5mbps up available and the main stream is 3.5mbps and you try a 2.5mbps stream, that's not enough room and you're going to be an asshole and disrupt the main stream. ABOVE ALL: You don't want to go live and have the stream choke constantly and have to keep taking it down and restarting, so do a test stream at the venue and have friends jump on and nitpick it. If it's choking often, adjust accordingly. Pay attention to people in chat who say stuff is choking. Worst case you can save a local recording and upload to youtube later.

Also, this should go without saying, but the big bottleneck here is your computer. If you have some quad core i7 at ~>2.3ghz base frequency or so (assuming Ivy Bridge or later) and 8GB or more of RAM you should be able to do anything, 720p60 with software encoding should be fine. If you've got more like an older i5 dual core mobile CPU, you're really gonna have to play with things to accommodate your limitations, and probably literally only run OBS/stream-related stuff on it and use another computer/phone/tablet/something to do anything else you need. Software encoding will get you the best results, the best bang for your megabits, as it will have the highest quality output. You may want to try Intel QuickSync (QSV) encoding if your CPU can't keep up, that runs as its own part of the die and not as software, but it still outputs heat, so be aware of that (I had to use a cooler on my i5 laptop I used to use for streaming, to keep Quicksync stable). There's also Nvidia NVNEC, usually it looks worse than Quicksync, but if you have a separate compatible NVidia GPU (without a CPU that can handle software encoding? I guess it's possible) this could save things if QSV won't work (which means software encoding also won't) but NVNEC will. You are going to want to run a lot of trial runs at home to make sure what you have at the tourney is stable. You will want to know for damn sure that your shit works fine at your house, so that when you get to the venue, you know any problems you have are with their internet.

Don't just test your PC, test as much equipment as you can too. Test your HDMI splitter, headsets, webcams, whatever. Don't show up and use something for the first time, unless you're prepared to go without it.

If possible, save a local recording. It's best to save to another (physical) drive than what you run your OS and software from. I have a second HDD in the laptop I stream from just for this. You can use an external HDD too possibly (remember the whole USB root hub saturation thingie). But I think even writing 3.5mbps (twitch's top bitrate for non-partners) to the same HDD/SSD you run your OS from would be fine. Again, use a calculator to figure out how much space you'll need, and remember you don't want your OS's drive to get filled up, leave something like 20%. Figure this out while you're testing your PC leading up to the stream.

For a calculator, Google works great! Try stuff like 3.5 megabits per second * 5 hours = , 30 gigabytes / 800 kilobits per second, etc. You won't have to do any unit conversion and juggle 1024 vs 1000 or any of that shit.

If you're running PS2, for fuck's sake please properly deinterlace it. If you've ever seen 480i game footage where things split apart every time something moves that means whoever captured it wasn't deinterlacing. Yadif and Yadif2x in OBS are a bit greedy on CPU but decently general-purpose. If they tax your system then play with the other deinterlacing methods until you find one you like and works well with your PC. Actually I bet with how the El Gato works (basically records its own h264 stream and sends that down USB) you will need to use its own deinterlacing settings and not those within OBS.

If you want stream graphics, pay a graphic designer friend to do it if you need it fast, otherwise slap some stuff together based on some tutorials or use some free stream layouts out there. For a smalltime sidestream it hardly matters imho, just find a nice desktop background type image for the game in question and play with stuff like desaturating and lightening/darkening it so it's not distracting.

If you have time, make an equipment checklist, label the big/expensive things with your handle and probably phone number, and have some backups. Take an extra HDMI cable or two. An extra power strip. Extension cord in case you're not near an outlet (bonus points if you bring your own gaffer tape, I would not leave that shit dangling across the floor at a tourney unless you're along a wall or similar). Maybe a backup capture card in case yours shits out (making sure it supports what signal you're using it for). Maybe a laptop cooler in case the table you're on is some weird vinyl top thing that your vents sink into. Masking tape and or duct tape because you never know. Zip ties, velcro cable ties. Stuff like that. You don't want to show up and have to run home or run out because you forgot something or because something didn't go right and you didn't have a backup plan or some obvious extra part you could have swapped in.

Stay calm under pressure, you do not want to be that small-time streamer whose shit is blowing up and you turn into a huge nervous yelling asshole because of it. lol. If the players just want to get on with it and you're not set up, you might just have to start without streaming or forgo it entirely. They come first. Though if they really want it streamed and they're willing to give you time then awesome... though actually since they're part of a larger tournament (you said loser's bracket) this isn't quite your call anyway.


Best of luck, and feel free to reply (I'll try to check here again) or hit me up on facebook if you need more. Your biggest asset is your time leading up to the tournament, make the most of it to test test test test test test all your shit.
 
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Heinz

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Holy fucking shit dan, this is possibly the biggest wall of fucking text I have ever seen on Neo-Geo.com !

I hereby make you aware that you are in the running for the award of the Grand Cross of the TL;DR

tldr.jpg
 
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theMot

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EG would be proud of that wall.
 

AJtheMishima

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Thanks for this post and everything we spoke about through messenger. I ended up not wanting to deal with getting everything setup and tested last minute. This tournament is supposed to be about fun and not stressing to this last minute capturing. I was actually sent to losers my first match of cvs2, scrub busted acouple of ppl and then knocked out by the guy that ended up placing 2nd. There was also a Vampire Savior tournament happening and I actually ended up winning that one. Stayed in winners the whole time. Used Jedah, Demitri and Rikuo. Since i won, they are sponsoring me and paying for my entry plus CVS2 into Texas Showdown in May. So i just have to pay the extra game fees to enter Tekken 7, 3s, SF2T.
Javi, Mr. Showdown came to our tournament and saw the community and added cvs2 to the lineup of side games. So it was a win for our group.
They host casuals every friday at U of H, so i will use that time to get my equipment setup and get my stream going. Im really glad i didnt try to do the stream, it was raining the night of the tournament and there was a flash flood warning in effect. So it was a pretty shitty night to come out, but we still had a good turn out.
I will def ask any questions i may come across during my learning experience. Since im staying low key this week ill have time to play around with the software.
 

xsq

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Holy fucking shit dan, this is possibly the biggest wall of fucking text I have ever seen on Neo-Geo.com !
you ain't seen nothing yet. I once had to make two posts because I burst past the limitations of this place. it was crazy long and I believe no one read it. :keke:
 

DanAdamKOF

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Hey I'd rather AJ learn all this upfront than later. This all came from experience and a lot is advice I wish I had at one point or another.
 

AJtheMishima

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Hey I'd rather AJ learn all this upfront than later. This all came from experience and a lot is advice I wish I had at one point or another.
Thats exactly the reason i made this post, i could follow multiple random threads on different forums. But being able to get direct input from someone thats has done this before is always best for me. Especially with streaming there are so many pieces that you have to fit together for a good end product.

Really my main issue right now is the fact that the elgato is a 2.0 usb device and you feed the system into it first then it outputs (hdmi) to the monitor. Ideally i want to run this on crt for cvs2. So im going to have to figure the best work around for this. Gonna look into splitters

Edit- if i want to run my ps2 by composite using av splitters before it goes into the elgato is there a better type of splitter or it doesnt matter. I know i wont get hd quality, but lagless gameplay via crt is the most important part of all this for the players
 
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DanAdamKOF

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El Gato HD has Component in. Ignore whatever HDMI out, you don't want any kinda weird halfass converter anywhere near a retro setup.

What type of connection are you using on the CRT?

If it's not Component, you don't need a splitter, because PS2 has independent outputs for Composite, S-Video, and Component. You just need a cable with Component out + your TV input of choice (usually they're for multiple consoles like 360/PS3/Wii). You could either dangle the El Gato off of the unused Component end, or get some Male-Female RCA cables (extension cables) or 3x RCA female-female coupler + 3x RCA cable, and run Component to the El Gato.

And for audio to go with the above: Just get 2 RCA Y splitters, one for L one for R. I think in this setup you'd want one with all female jacks, so you plug each directly into the end of your PS2's audio jacks, then run male-male RCA cables, one to the TV, one to the El Gato. edit: Actually, one with 1 male 2 female would be a bit tidier. Male end plugs into TV. PS2 plugs into one female end. Other female end, plug male-male RCA cable in, run that to El Gato.

If you're running Component to your TVs, that's really cool actually! High quality signals fuck yeah. Anyway you'll need a powered Component splitter/distribution amplifier (aka distribution amp), which unless it's a weird one should also split audio (if not, do as above). These are just some analog amplifiers to make sure you don't have signal loss when you connect to multiple things, they won't introduce lag. Just make sure it's a splitter (one input, multiple outputs) instead of a selector (one output, multiple inputs). I've used a Radio Shack 15-311 and liked it but they don't officially carry it any more, you could try calling and asking for that part number. Monoprice should have one as well, etc.

Bonus idea:
You could get a Component splitter with more than 2 outputs so you can also hook up to a projector or spectator Component screen, or even do a head to head/side by side setup (with two Component CRTs). If you want head to head but neither TV is Component then you'll want to follow the multiple output cable method and get a powered splitter that supports Composite (and S-Video, if needed) and wire those up. I'd bet a Component splitter would split Composite if it's fed into the green (Y) input, you'd need to test that yourself though.
 
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AJtheMishima

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Im actually going to pick up acouple of 13 inch crts off CL for free after work. I will be using these for the casual meet ups since they are alot easier to transport than something bigger, plus....they are free! lol Pretty sure they will have composite and possibly svideo. Ill either keep my eyes open for something better to come up for free or dirt cheap that has component. So once i pick those up ill know what route ill go. Since im getting 2 ill def have to do a head to head setup for the hell of it
 

DanAdamKOF

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So you'd want a PS2 cable like this: http://www.gamestop.com/accessories/mad-catz-universal-component-cable/33927
This says PS3 but it's the same pinout for PS2. Either hook up the Component end to the El Gato Component dongle directly, or if you need better placement for the El Gato then probably get a 3 RCA coupler and 6' Component video cable and run that to the El Gato. If your PS2 shows funky colors, boot it up without a disc and in the options, change RGB out from RGB to YPbPr.

This should be a good splitter, it's S-Video and Composite (stupidly, the title says Component, but clearly it's Composite) and it should be decently well-made like the Radio Shack Component splitter I have: https://www.amazon.com/RadioShack-1500320-Component-Distribution-Amplifier/dp/B010EIK6K6/
The cable I linked is just Component + Composite so just use Composite on both TVs. Also since it has 4 outs you should get audio from here and ignore the Y splitter stuff for audio I said earlier.

If you care to have S-Video then get a cable with Composite/S-Video/Component, I've seen them before but I couldn't pull one up.
 
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Maury V.

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Adam's the man when it comes to this. His set up at home is legit.
 

AJtheMishima

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So somebody beat me to picking up the two 13" tvs for free so I didnt get to mess with anything. Last night managed to pick up a Philips 20" tv for $10. Has a pretty good picture, has composite/svideo/component and very importantly since i will be moving this tv around alot, it isnt as heavy as alot of other 20" tvs.
Ill get to mess with it this week.
Is it true if i buy a component cable to use when playing the ps2 by itself that not all games are 480p compatible and the cable wont make a difference?

tv.jpgtv2.jpg
 

AJtheMishima

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Should be getting this mid week, was able to scoop this up NIB off ebay for $15 shipped.
Component Distribution Amp, same one Dan owns and says works well. Now i can run a composite line to a crt or two if i want to do H2H. And i can run a line to my elgato without adding any lag to gameplay.

amp 2.pngamp.png
 

sylvie

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when i registered here i was extremely high on crystal meth and i wrote walls about that size i think
 

AJtheMishima

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when i registered here i was extremely high on crystal meth and i wrote walls about that size i think

how do ppl on hard drugs even sit down at a computer and write shit? I know when i party last thing on my mind is concentrating and writing something. Ive got no attention span as it is lol
 

sylvie

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You still do meth?

no. you can't do that shit for too long. adderall is now my preferred stimulant. take about 100mg and its the longest-lasting, most intense stim high you're going to get. its the best designer drug in the world.
 

Tripredacus

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I've been running through designs in my head for doing some streaming later this year. I also will probably use a distribution amp to a capture card for streaming. I am certain I will be using a notebook for the stream PC. I will look into some other options, but Xsplit and OBS both require a DX10 video card for encoding. I am looking into options of using a server to do that part, but I am not certain if that will work.

One thing that seems to stink is all the guides for setting up streaming, especially 2 PC setup, is that it is all geared towards current gen stuff, HDMI, full HD, all that stuff. Doesn't really translate well in my head when thinking about pushing 240/480 or S/VGA even from original hardware and not using emulation.
 

DanAdamKOF

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You can simplify and use a scaler like OSSC or FrameMeister and then anything to do with modern game capture applies. Just use a distribution amp and continue feeding your setup with RGB or whatever, then another end goes into scaler, scaler output goes to HDMI capture card.

I might go that route some day but I use a Startech USB3HDCAP which does RGB including 15khz. Could be a bit sharper but looks OK overall.

What's with needing a DX10 card for encoding? Maybe for NVENC but I don't think that applies for QuickSync. And certainly not for software encoding. What's your notebook like? Mainly, which CPU is in it? Does it have USB 3.0 (or if not, ExpressCard)? (3.0 isn't needed but the 2.0 cards have some tradeoff or other) Is it just gonna capture stuff via capture card or are you going to game on it and stream that too?
 
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Tripredacus

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I am not going to be using HDMI for anything, so no upscaling. I may end up changing my mind about that after I get around to doing some testing. I do not have everything I need to even start yet.

The notebook is an older system, it will use an ExpressCard capture but I haven't bought it yet. Gaming is not to be done on the notebook.
 

DanAdamKOF

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If your notebook will just be capturing (ie not running a game on it then streaming that), then assuming it's something like an Sandy Bridge i5 you should be able to do a barebones stream just fine, if you keep the resolution low and possibly do 30fps instead of 60fps you could possibly squeeze in some other stuff like chroma keying (green screen behind you for transparent facecam), chat display, notifications, etc. It just takes lots of testing to figure out your capability and strike a balance.

I used a Sandy Bridge i5 for the laptop I used to capture+stream from, now I have an Ivy Bridge quad core i7 laptop for capturing+streaming which seems to have endless breathing room...
 
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AJtheMishima

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I got in all my component cables x3, bought a universal system component cable of higher quality, i have the ps2 HDD setup complete, i have my crt. Im still waiting for the component distribution amp to come in. I bought it on the 5th, was supposed to be at my door step by the 11th. Didint get anything, and just woke up this morning to a message saying it had just been shipped. Guess the dude completely forgot or something. Should have it this week sometime and i can finally test my setup.
 
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