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Thread: Voting is up for DarkSofts Neo Geo Multi Cart Design.

  1. #51
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    So, all drama aside, how much $$$ are we expecting this thing to be?
    Gil Perales

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BladeDancer314 View Post
    So, all drama aside, how much $$$ are we expecting this thing to be?
    NOW THAT'S THE SORT OF QUESTION... I WANT...

    xROTx

    PS. HOLD off on the drama thing tho... Just over 16 hours... because it's likely to kick off if they choose Option 2...

  3. #53
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    The projected costs have been known for ages over on their forum.
    There is no knowledge that is not power

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by fluxcore View Post
    The projected costs have been known for ages over on their forum.
    HI Fluxcore.... that sort of dumbass comment pisses people off...

    It would've been easier to supply a STRAIGHT answer...

    WAR ROOM lock... ask Mitsu to add you to the list of people I should release if he agrees to point ONE....

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BladeDancer314 View Post
    So, all drama aside, how much $$$ are we expecting this thing to be?
    I'm sure it was around $400 for the FPGA option and $350 for the flash option. For the versatility, the FPGA option would be better I think.
    My favourite pigeon had a fatal run-in with a cloud...

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by pulstar View Post
    I'm sure it was around $400 for the FPGA option and $350 for the flash option. For the versatility, the FPGA option would be better I think.
    THIS is the sort of answer I wanted.. something sensible... and to the point...

    NOT... "LOOK at me... i am so so arrogant... find out for yourself..."... THAT'S the sort of response I've seen since day one of this stupid thing... NO straight answers... just arrogance...

    I tried to keep it civil and be as fair as I can... but who the hell do you think you were negotiating with?

    ...I'm not some random n00b where you think you can fob me off with a sarcastic... clever ass reply... you were negotiating with me...

    xROTx

    PS. I will let fluxcore (and others) out IF Mitsu agrees.... to the terms and conditions I have asked for.... if not... this is only a sample of what's gonna happen...

  7. #57
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    Well it's sad to see that this will simply be using the same type of messed up ROMs as the multicarts. I was really hyped about this but that pricetag should mean that we're getting something that accurately reproduces all the official releases (never been interested in homebrew).

  8. #58
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    Yeah, it is a bit of a bummer I suppose, but it is the easiest way to design/release. Though if MAME stores the original games in encrypted formats and decrypts/emulates the protection layers, I would think it's at least possible to port the code over to FPGA. Not to say that it's easy, just that a device in the future could take similar concepts and then improve upon it when more unknowns are out of the way. Not knowing how heavy the encryption/protection is, it might not be feasible for current FPGAs in a reasonable price range.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bar81 View Post
    Well it's sad to see that this will simply be using the same type of messed up ROMs as the multicarts. I was really hyped about this but that pricetag should mean that we're getting something that accurately reproduces all the official releases (never been interested in homebrew).
    Quote Originally Posted by sparksterz View Post
    Yeah, it is a bit of a bummer I suppose, but it is the easiest way to design/release. Though if MAME stores the original games in encrypted formats and decrypts/emulates the protection layers, I would think it's at least possible to port the code over to FPGA. Not to say that it's easy, just that a device in the future could take similar concepts and then improve upon it when more unknowns are out of the way. Not knowing how heavy the encryption/protection is, it might not be feasible for current FPGAs in a reasonable price range.
    Sensible posts...

    xROTx

    PS. MITSU... you want to start answering these questions? Truly... I would prefer if you do... HENCE... I'd prefer you to stay... BUT... time is running out for you....

  10. #60
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    So much drama (it is ng.com after all) but rechargeable cell battery = odd design? I can't imagine charging the thing

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by awbacon View Post
    So much drama (it is ng.com after all) but rechargeable cell battery = odd design? I can't imagine charging the thing
    Unsure.... MITSU... we need ANSWERS!

    xROTx

    PS. Also... 12 hours.... left

  12. #62
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    Rot,

    as you well know I'm indirectly involved in this with my connection to Mits. You probably also know I'm a mod on their forums, and have been since Mits asked me to do it last year (although I've basically done nothing in a mod capacity over there)

    I'd like to propose that we keep (all) of these Darksoft projects completely separate from NG.com in the interest of keeping everything civil. No Posts here, no threads, no advertising etc. I realize that's not a happy solution, but my only aim here is to keep the peace.

    I'd like to offer that anyone needing tech support for their devices, I'll kindly and (quietly, again no advertising probably through pm) direct them to the tech support threads on DS's forum.

    Just so you know, I was not contacted by anyone and asked to post this. I love this place, I'm just trying to keep things on the up and up around here.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdamm View Post
    we barely even talk about neo here.

  13. #63
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    So whats the deal with the different encrypted, decrypted, rons talk? Is one better for performance?or protecting homebrew?

    Beaten in 2017: Not a Damn thing! But the Year is Still Young.

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    Games I can't beat that make me violent:
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugicha View Post
    Rot,
    That's me

    as you well know I'm indirectly involved in this with my connection to Mits. You probably also know I'm a mod on their forums, and have been since Mits asked me to do it last year (although I've basically done nothing in a mod capacity over there)
    Been there... as with most gaming satellite sites... it's quiet...

    I'd like to propose that we keep (all) of these Darksoft projects completely separate from NG.com in the interest of keeping everything civil. No Posts here, no threads, no advertising etc. I realize that's not a happy solution, but my only aim here is to keep the peace.
    I appreciate it...

    1) There is NO way you can keep the project seperate from NG.com... as they have tried to push the project on this site...
    2) I am looking to resolve this once and for all... hence, i will NOT take prisoners this time around...

    I'd like to offer that anyone needing tech support for their devices, I'll kindly and (quietly, again no advertising probably through pm) direct them to the tech support threads on DS's forum.
    This is also appreciated... and i understand you want to service the "COMMUNITY"... BUT... you should mention your same values to what you perceive as your betters on Mitsu's website...

    Just so you know, I was not contacted by anyone and asked to post this. I love this place, I'm just trying to keep things on the up and up around here.
    ...I want to hear from the guys who started this fuckin mess in the FIRST place...

    xROTx

    PS. You guys defending these gaming children..... you just have this narrow vision of what YOU want... I view this place and the scene as a whole...

    Hence, i am willing to compromise...

  15. #65
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    Theres so many smart people over here. People on both sudes need to quit being stubborn, and start a peaceful adult conversation with tbe other party. Really everyone on both sides should be working together, as a team. Someone just needs to be the person that looks past the "they need to come here" mentality, and make something happen. Both sides have much to offer for the good of the project. And to be clear i am talking about both sides here. Someone get over it and break bread already.
    Last edited by greedostick; 01-19-2016 at 02:53 PM.

    Beaten in 2017: Not a Damn thing! But the Year is Still Young.

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    Games I can't beat that make me violent:
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    [B]

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rot View Post


    I appreciate it...

    1) There is NO way you can keep the project seperate from NG.com... as they have tried to push the project on this site...
    2) I am looking to resolve this once and for all... hence, i will NOT take prisoners this time around...

    When I said keep separate, I meant only that you could delete any posts or close any threads related to their forums or projects. I don't expect you to tell everyone where to go each time they wanted to talk about it, just make it known once and for all that it won't be on NG.com. I believe this is in line with your 2) point as well.

    anyway, thx for replying, I don't speak for Mits or DS, so I have no idea if what they will say will offer you the resolution you are looking for, I'm only trying to keep things smooth here going forward.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdamm View Post
    we barely even talk about neo here.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by greedostick View Post
    Theres so many smart people over here.
    Don't be silly... I'm just drunk...

    People on both sudes need to quit being stubborn, and start a peaceful adult conversation with tbe other party.
    I ALREADY did that Greedo man...

    Really everyone on both sides should be working together, as a team.
    Err... AINT going to happen.... until they grow the fuck up and realise... this site and the I... will NOT be dictated too...

    Someone just needs to be the person that looks past the "they need to come here" mentality, and make something happen.
    I AM going to make something happen... don't fear Greedo man... (Clock is ticking... tick tock... tick tock...)

    Both sides have much to offer for the good of the project. And to be clear i am talking about both sides here. Someone get over it and break bread already.
    I hear you man... trying to make it happen...

    I'm like Jesus... except I'd rather YOU get Cruxified on the cross for our sins...

    xROTx

  18. #68
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    Then go over there ROT if you have not already. I havent checked the forum there today, and start a peaceful talk. And state your concerns, at their house. Its worth a shot because i dont think theyre coming here. Things have gotten out of control.

    Beaten in 2017: Not a Damn thing! But the Year is Still Young.

    Close to Completion:
    Bravely Default - Skyrim (pc) - Dragon Quest IX -

    Games I can't beat that make me violent:
    Solomon's Key (nes) (fuck Solomon and his damn key) - Festers Quest - R-Type - Ghost Pilots


    [B]

  19. #69
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    I proposed on their forum to make a main run of whatever gets the majority vote, and a limited run of the secondary vote. I'm pretty surprised to see so many people want the single game cart with flash memory that has four times slower loading speed just to save $50.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by greedostick View Post
    Then go over there ROT if you have not already. I havent checked the forum there today, and start a peaceful talk. And state your concerns, at their house. Its worth a shot because i dont think theyre coming here. Things have gotten out of control.
    No need...

    ...they KNOW what's happening here on NG.com...

    I DO NOT go to other peoples websites and impose my views on them... why do you think I can talk to the relevant website owners like AO and Schmups... and talk to them about differing concerns...

    This is the ONLY site I look after... and the ONLY site I feel I would mod...

    xROTx

    PS. 12 hours... and then... well Greedo pal... You'll see why there's a reason why I am an effective mod...

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by greedostick View Post
    So whats the deal with the different encrypted, decrypted, rons talk? Is one better for performance?or protecting homebrew?
    The encrypted roms are titles that were released late in 1998 starting with Slug X and KoF98. It was SNK's attempt to thwart piracy and conversion of less desirable titles into the latest and greatest (i.e. converting World Heroes into Puzzle Bobble). This employed decryption chips on the PROG and/or CHA boards that would decrypt the data into a usable format on neo hardware. This was to stop bootleggers from simply desoldering the rom, making an eprom copy and slapping it onto donor board from an older, non-encrypted title.

    So in order to duplicate a current title, the bootleggers had to do one of two things: reverse engineer the decryption chip in order to use the unmodified roms or decrypt the scrambled data and patch the program rom to bypass the software routines related to decryption. The problem with the second one is careful attention is needed by the crackers to make sure that the game play behavior isn't modified by the changes. When it comes to China specials (boots and multi-carts), they are in the mindset of "works good enough." As long as the game "appears" to play the same, their work is done. If they really cared about making the multis 100%, they would have fixed all the sound glitches and updated the prototype titles like Garou with the final release when they became available.

    Now the bigger problem with the multis is that EVERY game needs to be patched and modified in some way to respond to holding start return to the game select menu. You can verify this by running a CRC check and none of them will pass. It takes time and effort to patch an individual title and if this was a trivial process, we'd already have a 999 in 1 cart with every single title in it along with kof hacks to last a lifetime. Throwing in an extra routine to check for another button press could through off a game's counter that depends on a set of instructions executing in a predetermined number of cycles. You can see here that there are a handful of games that exhibit funky behavior due to this.

    http://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/MVS_Multicart

    So what's the problem with patching a rom to run on a multi? Nothing really. But what I see is the main appeal of this product is that people are planning to get it to run games that are not found any multi such as Windjammers, Magician Lord, Matrimelee, Real Bout(s), etc. Otherwise very affordable solutions to play the rest already exist. Now if Darksoft's multicart does not play unmodified roms, his team will need to go through the process of patching every title that exists and/or reuse the pre-patched/potentially buggy code courtesy the existing multi-carts. It is still an enormous effort to patch the 50 or so outstanding titles if they reuse the code from the existing multis. This is the technical answer to why Raz is up in arms about Mitsu's statement about the Darksoft multi playing "original roms." They need to be upfront about what it actually does and needs to be done in order for people to make an informed decision about purchasing. Selling with the promise of future patches to come may be a deal breaker for some as they would prefer to wait until the patches of interest are fully tested and released.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fygee View Post
    I proposed on their forum to make a main run of whatever gets the majority vote, and a limited run of the secondary vote. I'm pretty surprised to see so many people want the single game cart with flash memory that has four times slower loading speed just to save $50.
    Same reason why cheapo ebay sellers opt to mail games via media mail vs first-class/priority mail. To save $0.25.

  23. #73
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    shadowkn55, nice post. I just want to add that there are a few original NeoGeo that have never been successfully patched and stripped of there protections and been reworked to use the standard neogeo banking system (like Garou). The x in 1 multicarts including Garou surfaced after the official garou release was correctly emulated but they still used the proto version of the game. Even the bootlegs are based on the proto. Its not just about patching, one has to also physically move data in the program space banking system and then patch all the offsets. Its much the same as what's required in converting a neogeo CD game to a MVS format. Its really quite complex.
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  24. #74
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    Lad Lads... SOME of you are worrying about the fact.... I'm close to Raz... and it affects my decision making...

    Here are the FACTS:

    1) I am NOT ashamed to admit i have known Raz so long I've forgotten when we first met... and yes... we are friends...
    2) Does this affect my decision making... Not in the SLIGHTEST...

    Lemony... you REALLY need to see past why YOU think I do things...

    3) At the end of the day... YOU guys play here... YOU guys deserve a bullshit free project...

    I am MOD... I will look after the affairs of THIS site... and if I feel people like Mitsu... darksoft... IDC etc etc... are NOT playing ball or NOT giving us the answers we need...

    ...I will NOT support them... and will do what i need to to protect the members here...

    xROTx

    PS. 11 hours left... seriously... I KNOW they're watching this site... and people like lemony are reporting back to them... TRUST me... the deadline is real...

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razoola View Post
    shadowkn55, nice post. I just want to add that there are a few original NeoGeo that have never been successfully patched and stripped of there protections and been reworked to use the standard neogeo banking system (like Garou). The x in 1 multicarts including Garou surfaced after the official garou release was correctly emulated but they still used the proto version of the game. Even the bootlegs are based on the proto. Its not just about patching, one has to also physically move data in the program space banking system and then patch all the offsets. Its much the same as what's required in converting a neogeo CD game to a MVS format. Its really quite complex.
    Ditto, thanks for the informative post.

    Beaten in 2017: Not a Damn thing! But the Year is Still Young.

    Close to Completion:
    Bravely Default - Skyrim (pc) - Dragon Quest IX -

    Games I can't beat that make me violent:
    Solomon's Key (nes) (fuck Solomon and his damn key) - Festers Quest - R-Type - Ghost Pilots


    [B]

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