Shenmue 3 Kickstarter

MadAsgardian said:

Well, someone did launch a Kickstarter to fund their $5000 Kickstarter donation to Bloodstained, so...

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LMFAO! That's too bad it got cancelled.

That's a perfect pyramid scheme, I don't know why kickstarter would be against that with all the other bullshit they've greenlighted.

Backed it at 175 tier for the art book. I figure ill get the physical copy thru gamestop as they will have their own deal for preorder much like Mighty number 9. (backed Mighty Number 9 at 120 tier < art book whore)

DNS is duncing it up a bit, I'll give you guys that, but just because idiots sometimes use kickstarter to back idiotic projects doesn't make kickstarter as a whole idiotic. Idiots spend their money on idiotic things all the time, no matter what system they use to it. I have never been stiffed on a kickstarter project, because I only back people that clearly have the knowhow and experience to deliver.

SonGohan said:

--it's a glorified pre-order, only you aren't guaranteed anything, and it could be years before you even get it. And let's say you don't get anything after years of waiting, then what?

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So it's basically NGDEV team then? Paying hundreds of dollars for a game you've never played, only to wait sometimes years before it's actually completed and delivered? It's a process that makes business sense when you're producing niche products, even if most people don't like it, business is business.

ki_atsushi said:

I say if a game can't float on it's own merits it doesn't need to exist.

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Now THIS is idiotic. So a game being able to get complete corporate funding due to having a massive built in fan base that guarantees a monetary return means it can "float on it's own merits"? I guess the only games that deserve to exist are Call of Duty sequels and games made by rich people who can self-fund.

I'm pretty sure that a beloved franchise that people are willing to back to the tune of 3 Million+ dollars has proven that it can "float on it's own merits". This is a game that people have been wanting for 15 years, that is why they are willing to pay for it in advance, it's merits, not it's marketability. They're betting on Yu Suzuki and it's a bet they're clearly willing to make.

Saying Sony is scummy is probably a pretty strong argument to make, saying games should get funding from corporations, venture capitalists, or STFU is stupid.

Poylgon opinion piece: http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/17/8798203/shenmue-kickstarter-budget-sony

"For right now, all I can tell you is that YS Net has been looking at other sources of funding and we're preparing other sources of funding, so for the Shenmue 3 project it will be what we can source from outside plus the Kickstarter," Yu Suzuki told Polygon when asked about the budget. "But for right now that's all we can say."

[snip]

"If this is what it takes to get Shenmue 3 made, so be it; I'd rather live in a world where Shenmue 3 has a chance of being released than it being a dead project. But by not mentioning these details at all while asking fans for literally millions of dollars for a project with so much secrecy in terms of budget and funding? The whole thing begins to look a bit shaky."

MadAsgardian said:

Poylgon opinion piece: http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/17/8798203/shenmue-kickstarter-budget-sony

"But by not mentioning these details at all while asking fans for literally millions of dollars for a project with so much secrecy in terms of budget and funding? The whole thing begins to look a bit shaky."

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I agree with that. The problem here isn't the Kickstarter, or Sony's involvement, it's the lack of clarity overall.

Although it's very possible they are still in negotiations for their other funding and not legally allowed to discuss it publically until negotiations close.

I just hope they close out said deals and are able to present their backers with some clarity before the campaign closes next month.

I wouldn't say it's "scummy" on Sony's part, and this pretty much sums up how I see it:

http://kotaku.com/sony-is-helping-make-shenmue-iii-1711819045
“We said ‘the only way this is gonna happen is if the fans speak up,’” said Corsi. “We thought Kickstarter was the perfect place to do this. We set a goal of two million dollars, and if the fans come in and back it, then absolutely we’re going to make it this a reality.”

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For a long time, Shenmue 1 was the most expensive game ever made, and it didn't sell very well at all. Certainly not enough to justify its expenses.

To a corporate suit in Sony, that's sketchy at best.
They'd say something like:
"You want me to drop X Million USD on this game series that failed to make a profit TWICE?"

However, the climate has changed, and Shenmue was a late bloomer to a lot of fans.
Kickstarter was a way to show a room of corporate suits that it has potential, and to justify coming to them with this potential big expense.

$3,000,000 in your hand from thousands of adoring fans waiting to pay sight unseen for a game when asking for a favor of such a person is a lot more persuasive than just a hat and promises.

It's business.

Jonmkl said:

AKA It's about time and money. Sony isn't gonna invest it if they won't make their investment it back, as I said in my second post:



If Sony doesn't believe the fans want it, then they won't invest much in it, and then Ys Net will not have that time and money. Also asking for "an extra million bucks" from your backer is arbitrary? That actually made me laugh. Money comes with strings attached, the more money the more strings, and big companies may throw around a lot of it, but only when they think they will make a profit. Let's not forget that the original Shenmue cost 47 million dollars to make according to Yu Suzuki, not the safest investment in a niche style of game these days.

If Shenmue couldn't support a successful Kickstarter, there is no way Sony would fund it, hence, it would never get made. So kickstarter isn't that weird of a choice, no matter how lacking in balls or scummy Sony seems as a result.

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What is funny about my comment? Are we turning this into a flame war now? Am I supposed to tell you that I think you're a faggot or something because you don't see how arbitrary it is to set the incentives at million dollar increments or whatever? Like you believe that the game just shouldn't have a skill system if they don't get $3.5 million bucks from fans, and you think that's a pretty good estimate of the cost of having a skill tree. Right? Meanwhile, every other game I ever bought in my life never added basic game systems based on whether or not I pre-ordered. But suddenly it just makes a whole lot of sense with Shenmue 3, and it's just a good business move. For a game that they're already going to sink tens of millions of dollars into. Better not add those skill trees without a few hundred thousand more dollars, yeah? Hopefully you're sitting there laughing at me again for apparently being such a moron.

DNSDies said:

$3,000,000 in your hand from thousands of adoring fans waiting to pay sight unseen for a game when asking for a favor of such a person is a lot more persuasive than just a hat and promises.

It's business.

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It's manipulative. Early gaming Kickstarters (see Shadowrun Returns) were small passion projects, with funding sometimes going down to the wire. Companies listened to discussions in the comments and tailored their stretch goals accordingly, and fans were encouraged to dig deep if they wanted to see the game made.

Now it's just being used as slick, glorified, prepackaged preorder system/consumer sentiment tool. It sucks -- and it especially sucks because they're trading on the "hey, we might not have enough money to do this, better keep donating" mentality when all along the have the funding to get the game made.

DNSDies said:

I wouldn't say it's "scummy" on Sony's part, and this pretty much sums up how I see it:



For a long time, Shenmue 1 was the most expensive game ever made, and it didn't sell very well at all. Certainly not enough to justify its expenses.

To a corporate suit in Sony, that's sketchy at best.
They'd say something like:
"You want me to drop X Million USD on this game series that failed to make a profit TWICE?"

However, the climate has changed, and Shenmue was a late bloomer to a lot of fans.
Kickstarter was a way to show a room of corporate suits that it has potential, and to justify coming to them with this potential big expense.

$3,000,000 in your hand from thousands of adoring fans waiting to pay sight unseen for a game when asking for a favor of such a person is a lot more persuasive than just a hat and promises.

It's business.

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And yet, I can't recall a single time in history that a big company like Sony did something like this. So if it's just business, then why doesn't Nintendo Kickstart some games? Why doesn't Microsoft do it? Just because it makes sense doesn't mean they should be doing it. It would also make sense if they collected the 5 million bucks from Kickstarter and scrapped the project anyway. 5 million bucks in their pocket, that makes sense, yeah?

I think it would be better business to just make the game the best game they can, market it well, and get fans hyped about it. Get retailers to have pre-order incentives. Convince people who don't give a fuck about Shenmue to get hyped about this one. You know, the normal stuff that companies do to get games to sell. Like, why was Witcher 3 a top selling game? Was it because people are just really horny for more Witcher games? No, it was hard work, having faith in their game, and marketing. Sony has cold feet because they're worried about the health of their company, but that's their problem. As a gamer I just see a big company who has no faith in a game they're supposed to be backing.

I don't hate Sony and I'm not going to avoid a PS4 just because I think they made one stupid decision. If Shenmue 3 turns out good, I would buy it Kickstarter or not. But come on, it's not normal in the industry for a big company - a console maker - to have to make fans invest in a game before making it.

TheBigBB said:

And yet, I can't recall a single time in history that a big company like Sony did something like this. So if it's just business, then why doesn't Nintendo Kickstart some games? Why doesn't Microsoft do it? Just because it makes sense doesn't mean they should be doing it. It would also make sense if they collected the 5 million bucks from Kickstarter and scrapped the project anyway. 5 million bucks in their pocket, that makes sense, yeah?

I think it would be better business to just make the game the best game they can, market it well, and get fans hyped about it. Get retailers to have pre-order incentives. Convince people who don't give a fuck about Shenmue to get hyped about this one. You know, the normal stuff that companies do to get games to sell. Like, why was Witcher 3 a top selling game? Was it because people are just really horny for more Witcher games? No, it was hard work, having faith in their game, and marketing. Sony has cold feet because they're worried about the health of their company, but that's their problem. As a gamer I just see a big company who has no faith in a game they're supposed to be backing.

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Nintendo did with Bayonetta 2, sad thing was not enough Nintendo fans bought it and fans of the series either said fuck that due to Nintendo fans( who at that time we're being dicks about getting it ) or just don't wanna buy a $300 system for one game. Same thing with Microsoft who paid to get Shenmue 2 as a exclusive

This is going to be on PS4 and PC and a lot of people have either one of those and to a bunch of suits who want to stay a head of everyone else more then they already are this record breaking kickstarter told them that there's money coming back from this

Trey Burnout said:

Nintendo did with Bayonetta 2, sad thing was not enough Nintendo fans bought it and fans of the series either said fuck that due to Nintendo fans( who at that time we're being dicks about getting it ) or just don't wanna buy a $300 system for one game. Same thing with Microsoft who paid to get Shenmue 2 as a exclusive

This is going to be on PS4 and PC and a lot of people have either one of those and to a bunch of suits who want to stay a head of everyone else more then they already are this record breaking kickstarter told them that there's money coming back from this

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Wait, did Nintendo really Kickstart Bayonetta? Fuck that, too.

In any case, before some people find a reason to jump down my throat again, I wanted to put a good example of why using Kickstarter can be bad business in the end:

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showt...All-Mighty-No-9-backers-get-fucked-Love-Keiji

Because people who Kickstart things feel like they're entitled to special treatment beyond a typical pre-order customer. I'm not saying that to criticize anyone, but Mighty No. 9 seemed like a fairly legitimate Kickstarter on the face of it. Somehow it has created bad blood by not doing enough to give these people who funded the game the best possible experience. I wonder if we'll see similar bad blood for Shenmue. If they get 5 million bucks raised, I think those backers are going to expect a lot, and they're not going to put up with any bullshit. If Shenmue 3 turns out to be pure crap, those backers are going to be enraged. "We put all this effort into backing your game, and you give us this??" etc etc. When people buy a bad game on pre-order they usually just feel like idiots for falling for the hype wagon. They don't feel personally insulted.

Basically, if Shenmue 3 fails, it'll be a bigger PR disaster because they used Kickstarter. But we shall see if I'm right.

I backed Bloodstained at $150 because I want to support it. I'm fully aware of the risks but I expect the game to both get released and to be a quality title, the kind of game I want to play.

Kickstarter is a business, like anything else where money is involved. As such, either:

A.) It's purpose will be exploited by smart people that want to make money.
B.) It exists specifically because smart people wanted to make money and exploitation was the goal all along.

Either way, I see both sides of the argument that is happening here.

Taiso said:

I backed Bloodstained at $150 because I want to support it. I'm fully aware of the risks but I expect the game to both get released and to be a quality title, the kind of game I want to play.

Kickstarter is a business, like anything else where money is involved. As such, either:

A.) It's purpose will be exploited by smart people that want to make money.
B.) It exists specifically because smart people wanted to make money and exploitation was the goal all along.

Either way, I see both sides of the argument that is happening here.

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The funny thing is, you don't even have to be smart or put much effort into exploiting people on KS. They just throw money at you.

EDIT: Nevermind.

TheBigBB said:

What is funny about my comment? Are we turning this into a flame war now? Am I supposed to tell you that I think you're a faggot or something because you don't see how arbitrary it is to set the incentives at million dollar increments or whatever?

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Only if you really want to I guess, and "When you're backed by Sony, it's totally arbitrary to just ask for an extra million bucks." legitimately made me laugh, but given the context I think I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were saying sony would just trivially give out a million dollars, no strings attached to it's third party development houses, "all they have to do is ask" due to your focus on money not being an issue once you have sony backing, but you were actually saying that they wouldn't ask sony for such an arbitrary amount of money, which is true. So I guess I was laughing like an idiot for no reason.

What I'm saying is that, unlike games you've preordered in the past which already have budgets and teams and know exactly how much game they can afford to make, this game does NOT have a set budget yet, it's budget will be determined by fan response (both directly, through kickstarter, and indirectly by the third party funding they'll be able to secure based on the success of that kickstarter) which means there are systems, levels, areas, and features, that may have to be eliminated if the budget ends up being smaller than expected.

So yeah, at the most bare bones budget level required to make the game, there might not be a skill tree.

That said, the actual amounts of the stretch goals could be completely arbitrary, you're not wrong about that, but the need for more money to make them happen is likely legitimate.

ki_atsushi said:

The funny thing is, you don't even have to be smart or put much effort into exploiting people on KS. They just throw money at you.

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Patiently waiting for your succesful kickstarter where you prove this concept! Should actually be legitimately entertaining, especially if you succeed.

"Help me prove Kickstarter is stupid." by ki_atsushi

I would donate.

So did any of the high rollers here snagged Ryo's jacket?

TheBigBB said:

Wait, did Nintendo really Kickstart Bayonetta? Fuck that, too.

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I don't think Nintendo used a kickstarter to fund Bayonetta at all. They helped fund the game, but that was on their own dime...not the fans.

Castor Troy said:

So did any of the high rollers here snagged Ryo's jacket?

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Someone on NeoGaf claims to have purchased it accidentally.

neo_moe said:

I don't think Nintendo used a kickstarter to fund Bayonetta at all. They helped fund the game, but that was on their own dime...not the fans.

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Given how shitty Bayo 2 sold, even with the first game packed in at no extra cost, and that it did nothing to turn the Wii U's fortunes around because nobody cares about Bayonetta except for a minuscule and completely negligible niche, I bet Nintendo privately regrets funding it.

MadAsgardian said:

Someone on NeoGaf claims to have purchased it accidentally.

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I agree with some of the posters there and he should give it to Huber from GT. That guy's reaction to Shenmue 3 was the highlight from Sony's conference. Wish I was as passionate to games like him.

Castor Troy said:

Wish I was as passionate about anything like him.

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Fixed, lol

I have to say, I might actually bite the bullet and get a PS4 in the next year or so.

Didn't think I would be buying another new console, like ever again.

Taiso said:

Given how shitty Bayo 2 sold, even with the first game packed in at no extra cost, and that it did nothing to turn the Wii U's fortunes around because nobody cares about Bayonetta except for a minuscule and completely negligible niche, I bet Nintendo privately regrets funding it.

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How are they even still in business?

ki_atsushi said:

Fixed, lol

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I'm sure that guy is dead after viewing that tweet.