Chempop's elitist stance - Thread title pending

ForeverSublime

ForeverSublime

6400|!!|Kyo Clone
20 Year Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2001
Posts
6,416
Everyone here by now knows my elitist stance. If you suck at these games, you are barely scratching the surface of what makes them good in the first place.
Take this example as an anecdote. I know it might sound like I’m measuring my dick, but there is a point I’m trying to make if you have an open mind.

My first Ibara clear (which I consider Yagawa’s easiest game to 1CC), was a low score NO medal-chain run. Basically just saved my hadou cannons for the handful of tricky parts, cleared with a score of around 5 million iirc. By my fifteenth Ibara clear, I was fully medal chaining the entire game, cleared with a Letter score (over 10 Million). A superplayer can double my score, which to me means I’m playing at around 50% ability of what the game offers the player. That first clear of mine, less than half of my personal best, maybe experienced 20-25% of what the game offers. Now think about what someone who struggles to see the second or third boss might be experiencing, may 5% of the game’s design is understood and experienced by such a player. Credit feeding through stages might show a player some stage design, but to actually clear without continuing you must really understand why the stages are designed in such a way in the first place. You have to route, you have to form strats, and have to execute what the developer planned and it takes PRACTICE.

Dimahoo is an elaborate masterpiece that only the very best can fully experience, I BARELY SCRATCH THE SURFACE! On top of THE MOST insane scoring systems which requires the player to know how to obtain 108 unique items, I feel it also has the best art, design, and some of the best music and bosses in the genre.
Click to expand...

Wanted to have more conversation about this in a separate thread.

Let's stoke it with this: Why should scoring dictate the experience? Why doesn't the experience dictate the type of experience you have? If you want to play for chains, if you want to play for speed run, if you want to play for x, y, z reason, so be it.

When is a scoring system some arbitrary bean counting that limits the experience rather than enriches it?
 
hyper

hyper

fresh out of fucks
10 Year Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Posts
5,616
assburgers, why else obsess over score count
 
GohanX

GohanX

Horrible Goose
20 Year Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2001
Posts
12,499
Gee, I thought I played games to have fun.
 
JohnnyFever

JohnnyFever

Mr. Big's Thug
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Posts
195
Guys that are deep in to shmups obsess over scores. After a while once you learn the enemy patterns the only thing that is left is to get your score higher and higher. I like these games but I play them for fun. At least these guys show some skill when playing for score....it's nothing like those jackholes playing Madden and bragging how they run up their scores. Lame!
 
Chempop

Chempop

BESTEST Buttrider in chat.Officially No.10 at Schm
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Posts
3,024
Our lord and savior, he died for your scrubbiness
YGW.jpg
 
theMot

theMot

Reformed collector of junk
10 Year Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Posts
7,612
Nothing else to do in Massachusetts except play Scrumps or listen to Bee Gee's.

 
system11

system11

Shmups Overlord, ,
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Posts
87
Remember, before you go to sleep tonight, stick it to the elitists by buying a few rare games and sticking them on a shelf where they belong.
 
Electric Grave

Electric Grave

So Many Posts
No Time
For Games.
15 Year Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2004
Posts
20,259
I have to agree to a point with Chem.

Is not about a specific genre but more of a enjoyment that a certain mind set gets when it overcomes what seems impossible.

Take for example Ninja Gaiden III NES. Lots of people consider this the hardest great game in the NES, some people play the Famicom counterpart 'cause is easier. Well, when I started playing the game I played it during release, I couldn't beat it 'cause it had limited continues, never got to beat it as a kid until forward 20 years later and one of my close friends was playing it here and there, he had it running on one of his setups, I gave it a go here and there and still sucked at it like I always did when I was a kid. So after playing some Quantum Kabuki Fighter and beating the hell out of it (1CC No death run) I figured it was time to get into NG3NES. So I started just like everyone else, using the 5 continues, then when I finally beat it, I started working on a 1CC, when I finally did it, I started going for a speed run, utilizing the most out of the sub weapons and really exploiting every inch of the game to the max, when I was finally done I not only got my 1CC but I got my no death run to the final bosses, didn't manage to do a no death on them but hell, I'm still pretty happy with the results and in turn it made me a better gamer, faster, more precise, more intuitive.

I'm a big fan of just playing for fun and having a good time, but I have to admit I get much more out of a game when I'm dedicated and disciplined about it, it's just an inner thing, that ambition to be excellent at something. That drive is what makes me keep playing fighting games too, it's not so much that I wanna beat everyone but more about my growth as a dedicated player. Casual gaming is fun and if that's all you need that's OK, some people just need something more out of it, there's no wrong or right, they're just games.
 
F4U57

F4U57

General Morden's Aide
20 Year Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Posts
7,632
system11 said:
Remember, before you go to sleep tonight, stick it to the elitists by buying a few rare games and sticking them on a shelf where they belong.
Click to expand...


Hahaha!

Game elitists are low tier elitists.

Music elitists are much more intimidating.
 
Chempop

Chempop

BESTEST Buttrider in chat.Officially No.10 at Schm
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Posts
3,024
I just got to glowsquid after having not played Garegga in over a year. You know why? Because I’ve had fun playing the game for well over 10 years.
My quoted OP was a response to why Raizing games filled my top 5 shmups list, because they are complicated games with absurd depth.
The scoring in Yagawa’s Cave and Raizing games are anything BUT arbitrary, because you are rewarded with a 1UP every 1million points (or 1.5 depending on the game). If you are more keen on aimlessly flying around trying to survive and have fun, there are other games far better suited for that sort of experience.
 
ForeverSublime

ForeverSublime

6400|!!|Kyo Clone
20 Year Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2001
Posts
6,416
That's the thing, how many scoring systems can you develop that say, "This is a really good scoring system to reward someone at exactly 1 million points". That seems entirely arbitrary.
 
ForeverSublime

ForeverSublime

6400|!!|Kyo Clone
20 Year Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2001
Posts
6,416
Chempop said:
If you are more keen on aimlessly flying around trying to survive and have fun, there are other games far better suited for that sort of experience.
Click to expand...

What do you think distinguishes those games that make them a better survival/fun type of experience? They could very well have a great scoring mechanic, so the absence of one doesn't really classify it.

I can't believe how many arcade games I'd played, but never played Dimahoo. I looked at a video because of the comment you made. It looks fantastic; I was really smiling just watching.
 
GutsDozer

GutsDozer

Robot Master., Master Tasuke, Eat Your, Heart Out
10 Year Member
Secret Santa Veteran
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Posts
5,417
"Long, long ago, there were a man who try to make his skill ultimate. Because of his bloody life, it's no accident that he was involved in the troubles."
 
ballzdeepx

ballzdeepx

Rugal's Secretary
20 Year Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Posts
3,072
If you suck at these games, you are barely scratching the surface of what makes them good in the first place
Click to expand...

Probably not exclusive to just shmups regardless.
 
Takumaji

Takumaji

Master Enabler
Staff member
Joined
Jul 24, 2001
Posts
19,043
Playing for score in some games enhances the experience because this is the way they are meant to be played. A lot of design work went into the scoring system and its implementation into the game code, and by ignoring it, you will miss a lot of the fun.

Take games like Ikaruga or Psyvariar for example. Sure, you can play them like normal shmups and credit-feed your way to the end but once you get into the score/bonus collecting thing, you will find that there's more to it than just hammering away on the buttons and dodging bullets. Personally I get a kick out of beating a game with the highest score possible, it's a major part of the fun for me.

IMO, a really nifty scoring system makes all the difference between a good game that is fun to play and an excellent one that gives you lotsa bang for the buck and makes you come back for more to see whether you can increase your score even more. If there are rewards for racking up huge scores without dying or continueing, the better.

It goes without saying that the gameplay mechanics, visuals, sound and scoring have to go hand in hand. A good scoring system or great graphics alone don't make a good game, it's all about the balance of gameplay, scoring, visuals and sound. A well-balanced implementation of these elements is what seperates the wheat from the chaff.
 
NeoGeoNinja

NeoGeoNinja

Athena's Wardrobe Manager
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Posts
2,287
Depends on how you look at it I guess.

There's always the " I play games to have fun", no matter the genre - whether it be racing games, shmups or fighting games etc.

However, personally, I like (on a casual level I guess) scoring, as it helps one keep a track on whether or not they are making progress or improving. I don't deny, although I'm not a skilled enough shmup player to concentrate on Score > Survival, I still always keep a tab on my score too - as I do my overall lap/track/race times in racing games too.

I don't let the scoring dictate my enjoyment of the experience, but I do pay it attention as a means of understanding if I'm improving as a player of that game/genre. I admit to being quietly pleased with myself if I do better each time or, if I come back to a game after a long time and improve on an old score/time that I never believed I could have ever beaten...
 
F

FilthyRear

Neo-Geo.com's, Top Rated Bully.,
15 Year Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Posts
8,152
I like my shooters more on the simpler side. Raizing games are beautiful and play great, but theres way too much to keep track of.

I was obsessed with Raiden Fighters 2 and Jet for a long time. When I learned how to medal-chain and get the X-Medals, I started to try to find the Miculus' and Fairies, then - which is a tough thing for me to do, personally - I worked on rank-control by deliberately missing power ups. After a while, tho, I noticed that everytime I played those games i was doing the same actions over and over again, and it became more about my flight pattern - move to this corner, hover here, get THIS medal and not THAT one, kill THIS enemy before it reaches point x onscreen to activate THAT enemy so you can bomb four at a time and get a secret - than actually enjoying myself.

I can see where someone can enjoy a game like Garegga and Batrider - theyre deceptively complex and offer a ton of replay value (which is the real point of shooters in general, IMO). I'm always impressed when I watch playthroughs because it takes a lot of skill, memorization, and patience, and its fun to watch the game basically get deconstructed piece by piece.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top