New "Retro VGS" 2D Cartridge-based console

ki_atsushi · Aug 14, 2015

Famicommander said:
I demand all my retro games be played on vinyl.

Can you imagine vib ribbon using vinyl? Would be fuckin' crazy!

SpamYouToDeath · Aug 14, 2015

MadAsgardian said:
So apparently they've released the specs for this (or maybe it's old news?):
http://www.gamegavel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7474

Also, sounds like they're considering some sort of minidisc technology for the carts:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=175286544

A couple comments:

1. Their FPGA description is useless - just talking about logic elements isn't enough, because FPGA architectures vary wildly in what that actually means. It's like talking about "cores" in a GPU - that could refer to any number of organizational units.

2. Why do they have different pools of DDR and SDR DRAM? Unless the DDR has horrible latency or something, it seems a bit useless.

3. I'm skeptical that, in practice, games will be able to make use of both custom FPGA-driven video acceleration and the 3D engine provided by the ARM system.

4. Using optical discs outside the standard BD/DVD/CD world is asking for pain. EDIT: Yes this includes M-O before anyone gets pedantic.

MadAsgardian · Aug 14, 2015

SpamYouToDeath said:
4. Using optical discs outside the standard BD/DVD/CD world is asking for pain. EDIT: Yes this includes M-O before anyone gets pedantic.

It's not really clear if they literally mean MiniDisc, or something like a little hard drive. Either way it would sort of fly in the face of the whole "keep it retro" vibe.

SpamYouToDeath · Aug 14, 2015

MadAsgardian said:
It's not really clear if they literally mean MiniDisc, or something like a little hard drive. Either way it would sort of fly in the face of the whole "keep it retro" vibe.

I don't think they're approaching the hardware the right way, in general. The advantages to "retro" games are:
1. Quick boot
2. Minimal introduction/menus
3. No savegames, or minimal saving
4. Emphasis on mechanics over appearances

Today, you can spin up a DVD and grab an executable off it in 2 or 3 seconds. You can load a whole SNES/MD-size game in another second. The RAM to hold that data is a dollar or two at quantity. There's essentially no point to them using cartridges - do they really think anyone is going to be moving enough games to design expansion chips? Do they really think that shaving the last 2 seconds off the boot time matters?

There was a tradeoff made when games moved from solid-state media to optical discs. It was a good move then, and it's even better now - disc drives are orders of magnitude faster, cheaper, and more reliable. RAM is vast, fast, and cheap.

I'm using the storage media as just one example of this design issue. They're making dogmatic decisions because "that's how it used to be", not for any rational user-experience concerns.

MadAsgardian · Aug 15, 2015

SpamYouToDeath said:
I'm using the storage media as just one example of this design issue. They're making dogmatic decisions because "that's how it used to be", not for any rational user-experience concerns.

It is quite puzzling... the whole indie boom came as a result of the move away from physical media. Most of these games will be released digitally as well, so who exactly is going to wait months for the physical versions?

If they wanted to "keep it retro" they could have done it other ways, such as the system box art, game selection, interface design, marketing campaign, etc. To insist on cartridges/offline is just dumb... it would be like Atari refusing to use cartridges for the VCS because dedicated pong consoles were "better".

This stinks of a quick cash grab on the backs of hardcore collectors, because it's not really a sustainable model.

djjimmyjames · Aug 23, 2015

I just jizzed in my paints. If this thing is done right ill buy two. Usually stuff like this just dissapoints me but i saw some stuff on the new site for it that gave me promise.
http://www.retrovgs.com/

What can you tell us about the cartridges and couldn't you do the same thing with an SD card or USB stick?
(John Carlsen) No. Secure Digital (SD) cards and USB sticks are great for storing large amounts of data cheaply, but they are not reliable for long-term storage. If you look closely at the packages from better brands of SD cards and USB sticks, they will warn you that those products are for short-term storage only.

RETRO VGS uses a special new type of memory device. Unlike conventional flash EEPROMs, ours are rated to retain data for 100 years. This allows RETRO VGS games to be published more economically than with the masked ROMs used on previous cartridge-based systems, making a wider variety of games available through small-quantity publishing, while better avoiding the “bit rot” that plagues other types of memory devices.

The (soon-to-be-patented) RETRO VGS cartridge interface supports many different configurations, including cartridges that temporarily reconfigure the FPGA inside the RETRO VGS console, enabling hardware optimization for kinds of games we haven’t yet even imagined.

this is amazing also

The plan has always been from day one to support indie game development and what I mean by that is that if you're a game developer you'd have as much info, tools and help as possible and not be closed out of the system. This is not a closed console, meaning If you make a game for the RETRO VGS, and you wanted to order 50 copies of your own game to take to PAX and sell them on your own, you could! The plan is to be able to submit your box, cartridge & manual artwork, game code (for the cartridge), instructions and how many you'd like to order and you'd get your 50 shrink wrapped plastic cases with your awesome game cartridges all professionally packaged and sent to you. That still is the plan.

SmokeMonster · Aug 23, 2015

I was a naysayer about the RVGS until I read their new FAQ, which reads more like a manifesto. It sounds like they are doing almost everything right, except for the horrible name. It also looks like they're giving it enough power to do a lot if games are programmed well, but without a lot of headroom for bloat or sloppy programming.

djjimmyjames · Aug 23, 2015

http://youtu.be/RL-YQbf3NTE
In this interview he talks about streets of rage sequel, capcom, Konomi and a ton of other good news. However he needs alot of people on board. I have been reading for a few hours and watching videos. I'm amazed at what he is trying to do I feel it's been needed for a long time.

http://youtu.be/-b_dySnBWaE
Around 56 minutes in he talks about NGDEV team maybe they can shed some light.

SpamYouToDeath · Aug 23, 2015

djjimmyjames said:
I just jizzed in my paints. If this thing is done right ill buy two. Usually stuff like this just dissapoints me but i saw some stuff on the new site for it that gave me promise.
http://www.retrovgs.com/

this is amazing also

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/TC58NVG2S0HTA00/TC58NVG2S0HTA00-ND/5226324

Unless I'm mis-reading their datasheet, this is a typical cheapo Flash ROM and it's rated to 100 years if you're going to write it once and leave it alone (e.g. game cartridge).

shadowkn55 · Aug 23, 2015

SpamYouToDeath said:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/TC58NVG2S0HTA00/TC58NVG2S0HTA00-ND/5226324

Unless I'm mis-reading their datasheet, this is a typical cheapo Flash ROM and it's rated to 100 years if you're going to write it once and leave it alone (e.g. game cartridge).

That's NAND flash. It's a little more complicated to use as mask rom replacement than say NOR flash. NOR flash, which is used in NeoBitz and NGdev games is significantly more expensive, especially the 5v variants, than NAND flash which has a higher memory density and complexity threshold. It's sorta like SRAM vs DRAM. SRAM is very simple to use with very little external hardware but gets real expensive as memory capacity goes up. DRAM on the other hand in is super cheap even in high density applications ( > 1gb) but requires a memory controller to monitor refresh cycles to prevent decay as well as arbitrate read/writes to a very precise timing cycle.

SpamYouToDeath · Aug 23, 2015

shadowkn55 said:
That's NAND flash. It's a little more complicated to use as mask rom replacement than say NOR flash. NOR flash, which is used in NeoBitz and NGdev games is significantly more expensive, especially the 5v variants, than NAND flash which has a higher memory density and complexity threshold. It's sorta like SRAM vs DRAM. SRAM is very simple to use with very little external hardware but gets real expensive as memory capacity goes up. DRAM on the other hand in is super cheap even in high density applications ( > 1gb) but requires a memory controller to monitor refresh cycles to prevent decay as well as arbitrate read/writes to a very precise timing cycle.

The system's built around an ARM CPU in the neighborhood of 1ghz. It's not going to be fetching anything directly from an external memory, and it likely has flash and SDRAM controllers built-in.

Modern systems dropped the totally-random asynchronous parallel memories because they simply don't scale. It doesn't make sense to incur a full round-trip latency down to the bits on every access when the vast majority are multi-byte (or multi-word) sequential block transfers.

shadowkn55 · Aug 23, 2015

SpamYouToDeath said:
The system's built around an ARM CPU in the neighborhood of 1ghz. It's not going to be fetching anything directly from an external memory, and it likely has flash and SDRAM controllers built-in.

That is most likely true. Even so, the real meaty details are so scant, it's difficult to assess what this thing really does or is envisioned to do. There are a few buzz words (fpga, hdl core, etc) that are thrown in there but don't coherently mesh with the available information. Based on what's out there now, it just sounds like a mini computer that just happens to have cartridges as in primary media, not a re-imagination of an actual retro system that uses cartridges.

djjimmyjames · Aug 27, 2015

I guess the kick starter begins September 15. Very exiting so far. Ive been trying to keep a list of games and developers and ill try to update if I hear anymore on it.
NG DEV Team/ ?????
Way forward/ Shantae and the pirtes curse
Heart-Machine HLD
Pixel Barrage/ Tower of Flight
Piko/ Super Noahs Ark 3D
Wizardfu/ Songbringer
Collectorvision/ Sydney Hunter and the caverns of death
?????/ Read Only Memories
?????/ Adventure of the Tiny Knight
WaterMelon/ pierSolar + two other games

djjimmyjames · Aug 28, 2015

Ok so found out tonight that the system is gonna be north of $300 dollars. The developers want to put in a jamma connector or a box for a jamma connector of some sort in the back. I guess at the convention this weekend the owner is gonna ask people what they think about it. He mentioned it about four or five times on the convention feed so far. He also talks about NGDEV team in depth and almost let the game they are making slip. I believe he didnt realize he was being recorded. The owner spoke of Hyper light Drifter, ive also heard today about infernax and the evil magician returns 2 both 8-bit games. Im all about it even if I have to drop $300 for the system and all ten launch games at $30-$50 just to support something different.
Infernax
https://youtu.be/BhrojXnR5ji
Shantae and the pirtes curse
https://youtu.be/EOPtDknFwtI
Songbringer
https://youtu.be/RFV21YdIDqY
Hyper light drifter
https://youtu.be/VslU2On9kkU
Adventure in the Tower of Flight
https://youtu.be/pABn9xbA7cA

Super 3D Noah's Ark
https://youtu.be/CK7pzzmsCxQ

GohanX · Aug 28, 2015

$300?

So many ke's....

Sherlin · Aug 28, 2015

After being snakebit by the NEO X, and knowing what garbage the Retro Duo, FC Twin, etc are....I'm staying away from this until it's a proven success.

I don't even have faith in Nintendo consoles anymore, so there's no way I'm jumping in head first

GohanX · Aug 28, 2015

Hold on, I'm not done laughing yet

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

SmokeMonster · Aug 28, 2015

If $300 is the price, it's over before it started.

Renmauzo · Aug 29, 2015

SmokeMonster said:
If $300 is the price, it's over before it started.

Ya, especially considered an ARM Octa Core media player (like the My Gica 1800E for example) matches those specs and then some by having 2 GBs RAM and WiFi, and runs for 199.99 CAD (149.99 when on sale). There just isn't 300+ $ worth of tech in there, period. I can understand wanting to recoup for things like the controller, R&D costs, the mold purchase, etc., while knowing the volume for parts ordered and subsequent production numbers will be low, making manufacturing costs higher, but he should be prepared to either take a loss on the console or at least break even on the per unit price and just be happy to make money on the games in order to get this thing into people's homes.
I still want to be optimistic about the chances of this thing, but the marketing alone will be an uphill battle. The chances for success here are so slim, and asking people to make a 'hail mary' with 300+ $ via crowdfunding in order to mitigate the risk of this venture is a move that should speak volumes in and of itself.
I'm torn between doubt and wanting to have my hands on a Hyper Light Drifter cartridge...

420p · Aug 29, 2015

Plus the games can run on any android tablet ...

miisalo · Aug 29, 2015

GohanX said:
Hold on, I'm not done laughing yet

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

I'll join you

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

This is :thevt:

machine.

Steve · Aug 30, 2015

I've spoke with Mike Kennedy (one of the brain trusts behind this project) a few times personally over the past year and a half (when I was supporting his RETRO Magazine Kickstarters) but I am seriously smelling big time dud here. I'd like to give him and his crew the benefit of the doubt, but this has Kevin Costner Water World written all over it. How they've come this far (KS opens mid September) is beyond me. I appreciate their ambitiousness and following their dreams, but this has a ridiculously low chance of actually being "successful."

I'll happily eat crow if I'm wrong, and I do wish Mike the best, but I have a feeling in a month's time we'll all be thinking "Yep, I knew it would flop."

420p · Aug 31, 2015

There is seriously no need for this console.

LoneSage · Aug 31, 2015

lol, so after all these years of retarded manchildren wanting someone to make a new 2D game machine (like it's that easy, POOF here's a game console that has 2D games on par with classics from 25 years ago), it actually happened?

Retarded. The games will never, ever be as the same caliber of games from the Genesis/SNES/Neo era.

neo_mao · Aug 31, 2015

Guys, I've got news for you...

You know the Nintendo NX...this is it.

Mark my words - joint venture between Nintendo and Mike Kennedy...

It is real. And it will blow your minds.

New "Retro VGS" 2D Cartridge-based console

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