Ship of Theseus Paradox in Retro Video Game Collection

Are any of you familiar with the Ship of Theseus Paradox? Basically Theseus had a ship that after so many years of existence eventually needed a plank replaced, then another, and another and so on and so forth. The question then becomes when every piece has been replaced, is it still Theseus' ship and if not at what point in replacing those parts did it stop being so.

This is an issue that effects many antiques & collectibles. Is is okay to replace the battery on a dead cartridge? Most would say yes. Is is okay to make a reproduction case for the cartridge, less would agree to that. What if you replaced the ROM chip inside because it became corroded or kept the original ROM chip and replaced the shell?

Where do you personally or feel the community should draw a line in considering an item being maintained, restored or simply being a reproduction? Also something to consider is that part of the paradox asks, what if someone took all the original pieces and put them together, is that then the real Ship of Theseus? Just as someone may cobble together a system or game from spare parts.

As long as the "replacements" are disclosed and considered in the price, I personally don't care.

But the idea I follow is this:
The ROM chips are the "Brain" of the cart. It gives it the unique and irreplaceable identity. Replacing them with EEPROMs or EPROMs, etc is like putting an artificial brain with a copy of the memories in a human. It's not the same person anymore.
Add to this that EPROMs and EEPROMs Flash or NAND/NOR will degrade over the years, and it's an imperfect copy, doomed to failure.
Carts are just plastic, and are usually interchangeable with no effect. Labels are only important to collectors.

The heart of all cartridges is the ROM chip, or ROM chips as is the case with Neo Geo. When it comes to consoles with games that have only one ROM chip, those are easy to distinguish between real and boot. On Neo Geo, anywhere between all Mask ROMs and all EPROMs/flash/etc is a repair. Some would say if half the ROMs are fake, then it's a half-boot.

Things like the cartridge shell, PCB and off-the-shelf/custom chips shared with other games (mappers, co-processors etc) are all secondary to the ROM chip and don't really have anything to do with what makes a game unique from every other game for a particular console, aside from the label. If the board has become corroded, replace it with a new one. It doesn't make the game any less authentic. What matters most is the ROM chip, it's the only electronic piece of a game that defines it.

Conversions are like that. Separately each component would still be SNK original, but as a whole it would not be considered a genuine SNK item.

The part of a conversion most often hated is the all the reprinted paperwork and the dirty feel of the overall item.

The only thing separating an original AES cartridge and a converted one is the hand-soldering. Other than that, there's no real difference.

What about building a CMVS? Since those boards were meant for cabinets, it could be said that a CMVS is a lesser way to play.

Personally, I feel like, similar to roms, the core of the machine is still there. That makes it just as viable as rebuilding a cabinet. I think that the ingenuity involved is impressive; and we've essentially spawned a new standard format for the system.

Every time I think I've seen the dumbest thing on this site, a few folks come in and start some really fucking stupid topics.

Katsujinken said:

Are any of you familiar with the Ship of Theseus Paradox? Basically Theseus had a ship that after so many years of existence eventually needed a plank replaced, then another, and another and so on and so forth. The question then becomes when every piece has been replaced, is it still Theseus' ship and if not at what point in replacing those parts did it stop being so.

This is an issue that effects many antiques & collectibles. Is is okay to replace the battery on a dead cartridge? Most would say yes. Is is okay to make a reproduction case for the cartridge, less would agree to that. What if you replaced the ROM chip inside because it became corroded or kept the original ROM chip and replaced the shell?

Where do you personally or feel the community should draw a line in considering an item being maintained, restored or simply being a reproduction? Also something to consider is that part of the paradox asks, what if someone took all the original pieces and put them together, is that then the real Ship of Theseus? Just as someone may cobble together a system or game from spare parts.

Click to expand...

How about you play your GAMES and stop worrying about the value of your TOYS?

VanillaThunder said:

Every time I think I've seen the dumbest thing on this site, a few folks come in and start some really fucking stupid topics.

Click to expand...

Are you sure you're not just jealous that in your 14,000+ posts, you never arrived at what Katsujinken has done in a mere 33?

I know I would be.




PS.

His Join Date/Post Count/Feedback ratio leads me to believe he has been contemplating this post for over 2 years. A member to watch, for sure.

PPS.

Jesus Christ was dead and alive again by 33, now I'm not saying that makes me this board's messiah but Jesus often denied that title on himself as well. Anyhoo, I'm not concerned by the monetary value but I am here because I enjoy the feeling of a real experience otherwise I'd have just emulated and as time goes by with things breaking down that's going to become more & more nebulous so it's something I think is interesting to consider/discuss.

I think the community should draw a line on your ability to ever post a thread again.

Katsujinken said:

Jesus Christ was dead and alive again by 33, now I'm not saying that makes me this board's messiah but Jesus often denied that title on himself as well. Anyhoo, I'm not concerned by the monetary value but I am here because I enjoy the feeling of a real experience otherwise I'd have just emulated and as time goes by with things breaking down that's going to become more & more nebulous so it's something I think is interesting to consider/discuss.

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Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about?

Katsujinken said:

Jesus Christ was dead and alive again by 33, now I'm not saying that makes me this board's messiah but Jesus often denied that title on himself as well. Anyhoo, I'm not concerned by the monetary value but I am here because I enjoy the feeling of a real experience otherwise I'd have just emulated and as time goes by with things breaking down that's going to become more & more nebulous so it's something I think is interesting to consider/discuss.

Click to expand...

Cool story, bro.

are you familiar with the Ship of Fools paradox?

I was wondering this about that Anal log NT, is it actually an NES just because it uses a couple chips salvaged from Famicoms?

Ive heard this theory as it relates to instruments like guitars and stuff - over time, shit breaks down and has to be replaced. If you re-fret the neck or replace tuners on a '69 Strat, it doesn't take away from the fact that its still a '69 strat. replace the neck itself, then people saying that's its not authentic anymore.

I don't own an AES (one day...), but I still own a Neo-Geo in the form of a CMVS. Im still able to buy and ENJOY neo-geo games, altho in a different aesthetic presentation, and PLAY them. I can still say I own a Neo-Geo. Im happy with that.

As far as the OPs 1st post:

Replacing a battery is fine - youre extending the functionality that was intended originally by adding a replacement part. Batteries die, its just their nature

Reproduction cases - only if the original is beat to shit and it affects the games performance/ability to be PLAYED. Case in point, I have a copy of Metroid II that Ive had since I was a kid. 2 days after I got it, our dog got a hold of it and chewed the corner by the contacts. It still fit in the system and it still played. no reason to replace the shell/label.

Replace the ROM chip - this is a grey area. I would say that if you replaced it with the same make/model and only put that program on it, you can call it a "restoration" (in the loosest sense possible), but any sale of that cart after the fact NEEDS to specify that. otherwise youre a scamming faggit and should be burned alive.

If its a combination of the three above, its a restoration, and NOT original. if youre taking components from other sources (shells from different games, newly printed boards, different type rom chips) then its a reproduction because nothing is original anymore

Are any of you familiar with the Theseus Wife Paradox? Basically Theseus had a wife that after so many years of existence eventually needed a boob replaced, then another, and another and so on and so forth. The question then becomes when every boob has been replaced, is it still Theseus' boob and if not at what point in replacing those boobs did it stop being so?

When you put your penis in?

Just over 12hrs for this thread to devolve...ah well, it had it's time.

I was considering this exact concept with the car I'm working on...I've replaced so many parts it's hard to say it's from the 70's anymore...

I'm more familiar with the 50 bux shipped for these paradox.

If a mask rom becomes corrupted and you replace it with an EPROM who cares? If you were to sell it well you'd sell it as exactly that, a repaired cartridge.

Was it that hard?

chimera said:

The question then becomes when every boob has been replaced, is it still Theseus' boob and if not at what point in replacing those boobs did it stop being so?

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Here's your answer: it was never Theseus' boob to begin with.

xsq said:

Here's your answer: it was never Theseus' boob to begin with.

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if you love a boob set it free?

It's preferable to be a user than an owner of a boob.