How do you feel about looking up strategies/watching videos etc.

flashbackx

flashbackx

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andsuchisdeath said:
While I agree with you on the first part (games being for personal enjoyment), I think one must discriminate on what becomes a "problem" regarding high scores/competition.

Obviously cheats are out of the equation. But if you're going for a speed or high score record, you better know exactly how "the best" are handling a game if you want to best them. Videos/walkthroughs are crucial to this IMO.
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I totally agree; they are a necessary training tool for speed runs etc. As for cheats, I know some people get all bent to shit with people using them in games, and I'm talking single player non-competitive here. I've never understood that, it's YOUR game and as long as you're not ruining anything for anyone else have at it. Some shitty games require cheats in order to make them somewhat fun even.

However, if you do use cheats or save states; just don't say you've "beaten" the game. A buddy of mine was telling me how he can beat Battletoads (a game with limited continues) and goes on to show me how by reloading the jet-bike stage every time he dies... I was like, uh no you can't actually beat it.
 
Ninjainspandex

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Depends on the game, Like Fire Emblem I always want to recruit everyone so I use a strategy guide to figure that out. Same with Zelda, Metroid, or Metroidvania Castlevania games where I want to 100% complete everything. I usually use my ipad with PDF reader of scanned strategy guides or the Zelda Dungeon online guides are really great.
 
ArmoredGecko

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A game should provide clues to help you with things, if no clues are provided or they're too obscure (fuck you Myst) then I'll use a guide. I got no beef with folks using a guide all the time though.
 
Phyeir

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Personally, I won't touch gameplay videos or strategy guides until I've beaten the game for myself. Even if it means many moments of frustration or spending an hour or two lost, that just makes the satisfaction of doing something in a game, even if it results in a grade D screen after doing it, that much better. To look up how to do something like that takes a lot of the joy away from it.

After I've beaten something though, I have no problem seeing what I missed and depending on what it is going back and experiencing those missed sections.

As for other games like SHMUPs and fighters, even though I could learn a lot and get better by seeing what those more skilled can do, getting the highest score to just get a higher score by seeing how other people play poisons the scores I may achieve. It's just about trying to top myself by myself. I like the internal competition.

None of this is said in judgement of others looking up strategy and videos though. We all find our enjoyment from games in different ways. Long as you're having fun, you're not missing the point of games at all.
 
andsuchisdeath

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Phyeir said:
As for other games like SHMUPs and fighters, even though I could learn a lot and get better by seeing what those more skilled can do, getting the highest score to just get a higher score by seeing how other people play poisons the scores I may achieve.
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Regarding the first part of your post, sure. I would imagine a lot of the charm in RPGs/non linear/ adventure games is savoring the unknown. Viewing a part of a game you've yet to experience yourself could certainly spoil the atmosphere previously accrued. But I don't play these types of games, barring an exception here and there.

As far as the actual quoted piece of your post, knowledge should be power, not poison. There isn't a magical sense of mystery to kill in twitch/timing/reflex oriented games.

A brief educational lesson through print, video or word of mouth can create a personal revelation that could elavate a game you like toward being game you love. Or the inverse of course.

"WOW my favorite character in this fighting game isn't bottom tier! For years I've been getting stuffed in the air when doing jump in roundhouses, medium kicks and fierce punches. Never in a million years would I have guessed that character's jumping jab is his best normal. Now I can experience more successful moments! I may want to continue playing this game after all."

Assuming one does not have the ability to come to the aforementioned fighting game realization on his own, NOT experiencing that piece of knowledge (perhaps achieved through a video), is what I would call poisonous. This can translate over to shmups, beat 'em ups and any type of arcade or arcade style game.

In short, the process of implamentation, IMO, embodies both the challenge and fun in these types of games. Simply "knowing" something can never sap the fun out of the experience of application.

EDIT: And I also understand the value of internal competition. But who's to say it's no longer an internal competition after one has a full arsenal of understanding derived from an outside source? Assuming innovation is not the utmost priority of the individual playing a game.. an average player's innovation ceiling is relatively low, and to deny themselves a glimpse of what could be may leave a person to experience only a fraction of that game's true nature.
 
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Phyeir

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andsuchisdeath said:
A brief educational lesson through print, video or word of mouth can create a personal revelation that could elavate a game you like toward being game you love. Or the inverse of course.

"WOW my favorite character in this fighting game isn't bottom tier! For years I've been getting stuffed in the air when doing jump in roundhouses, medium kicks and fierce punches. Never in a million years would I have guessed that character's jumping jab is his best normal. Now I can experience more successful moments! I may want to continue playing this game after all."

Assuming one does not have the ability to come to the aforementioned fighting game realization on his own, NOT experiencing that piece of knowledge (perhaps achieved through a video), is what I would call poisonous. This can translate over to shmups, beat 'em ups and any type of arcade or arcade style game.

In short, the process of implamentation, IMO, embodies both the challenge and fun in these types of games. Simply "knowing" something can never sap the fun out of the experience of application.

EDIT: And I also understand the value of internal competition. But who's to say it's no longer an internal competition after one has a full arsenal of understanding derived from an outside source? Assuming innovation is not the utmost priority of the individual playing a game.. an average player's innovation ceiling is relatively low, and to deny themselves a glimpse of what could be may leave a person to experience only a fraction of that game's true nature.
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I totally get that I'm missing out on the best or more successful way to play a game by not taking the time to learn what others may know that I haven't captured on my own. But that's getting very close to what I do in every other facet of my life. I study or read for work pursuits, I look for the best advice from others for what to do in life, next steps to take, or the best way to fix up my house.

Gaming though, that's my me time. I play nearly exclusively single player experience games or if it is online, I don't want mics or chatting or any of that (unless it's only with a group of established friends). It's the one place in life where I can do what I want without the need for consideration of external forces. The game has those rules that I have to live within and get to try and figure out what things do and don't work. If I start taking those steps to go to the next level, for me personally, it begins to feel like work. The experience is corrupted that way. So some games I will be able to master and others I'll stay at scrub level. But I'll still be having fun all the way through and I'm getting what I want out of the games being played.
 
Wachenroder

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Phyeir said:
Personally, I won't touch gameplay videos or strategy guides until I've beaten the game for myself. Even if it means many moments of frustration or spending an hour or two lost, that just makes the satisfaction of doing something in a game, even if it results in a grade D screen after doing it, that much better. To look up how to do something like that takes a lot of the joy away from it.

After I've beaten something though, I have no problem seeing what I missed and depending on what it is going back and experiencing those missed sections.
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I've had the "What am I supposed to do?" moments more times then I can count. Especially when I was a kid.

Have you ever played Breath of Fire 3? It was near the end of the game. I remember I spent a good week trying to figure out this one super cryptic "puzzle." If you played it you probably know the part i'm talking about. Eventually I got frustrated and walked down to USC and looked up what I was supposed to do. All I got from that was "how in the fuck was I supposed to figure that out?"

When I was a kid before the internet took off, parts like that were either you get lucky and stumble into the solution, a game magazine/guide had the tip, or you knew somebody who knew how to pass it. Many a game went unbeaten back then because of stuff like this. So many wasted hours as a kid trying to fight through bad game design. Castlevania 2 ugh...

Not knocking you for sticking to your guns. Thats pretty admirable and I wish I still had the patience to do things that way.
 
Phyeir

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Wachenroder said:
I've had the "What am I supposed to do?" moments more times then I can count. Especially when I was a kid.

Have you ever played Breath of Fire 3? It was near the end of the game. I remember I spent a good week trying to figure out this one super cryptic "puzzle." If you played it you probably know the part i'm talking about. Eventually I got frustrated and walked down to USC and looked up what I was supposed to do. All I got from that was "how in the fuck was I supposed to figure that out?"

When I was a kid before the internet took off, parts like that were either you get lucky and stumble into the solution, a game magazine/guide had the tip, or you knew somebody who knew how to pass it. Many a game went unbeaten back then because of stuff like this. So many wasted hours as a kid trying to fight through bad game design. Castlevania 2 ugh...

Not knocking you for sticking to your guns. Thats pretty admirable and I wish I still had the patience to do things that way.
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Oh, it is not without its frustrations at all. Ive had games sit on the shelf for months or years due to getting stuck and just not getting back around to it. But then I get back into the right frame of mind and it all comes together somehow. Usually. :P

There's no denying that its completely foolhearty in this day and age where knowledge is so freely available. Andsuchisdeath makes all the right points on this matter too, its hard to experience all a game has to offer if you don't look for other perspectives because each person playing a game will usually only make certain choices and will eventually lock into a particular pattern. All depends on what your goals are in gaming. Your mileage WILL vary. Long as you are feeling fulfilled in the pursuit of gaming though, you're doing it right, IMO.
 
Tripredacus

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andsuchisdeath said:
Obviously cheats are out of the equation. But if you're going for a speed or high score record, you better know exactly how "the best" are handling a game if you want to best them. Videos/walkthroughs are crucial to this IMO.
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Oh I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't research the best way to play something in order to get a high score or get a speed run record.
 
flashbackx

flashbackx

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andsuchisdeath said:
Regarding the first part of your post, sure. I would imagine a lot of the charm in RPGs/non linear/ adventure games is savoring the unknown. Viewing a part of a game you've yet to experience yourself could certainly spoil the atmosphere previously accrued. But I don't play these types of games, barring an exception here and there.

As far as the actual quoted piece of your post, knowledge should be power, not poison. There isn't a magical sense of mystery to kill in twitch/timing/reflex oriented games.

A brief educational lesson through print, video or word of mouth can create a personal revelation that could elavate a game you like toward being game you love. Or the inverse of course.

"WOW my favorite character in this fighting game isn't bottom tier! For years I've been getting stuffed in the air when doing jump in roundhouses, medium kicks and fierce punches. Never in a million years would I have guessed that character's jumping jab is his best normal. Now I can experience more successful moments! I may want to continue playing this game after all."

Assuming one does not have the ability to come to the aforementioned fighting game realization on his own, NOT experiencing that piece of knowledge (perhaps achieved through a video), is what I would call poisonous. This can translate over to shmups, beat 'em ups and any type of arcade or arcade style game.

In short, the process of implamentation, IMO, embodies both the challenge and fun in these types of games. Simply "knowing" something can never sap the fun out of the experience of application.

EDIT: And I also understand the value of internal competition. But who's to say it's no longer an internal competition after one has a full arsenal of understanding derived from an outside source? Assuming innovation is not the utmost priority of the individual playing a game.. an average player's innovation ceiling is relatively low, and to deny themselves a glimpse of what could be may leave a person to experience only a fraction of that game's true nature.
Click to expand...

This is good shit... like a term paper. A+
 
Bill Kilgore

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I have to agree with andsuchisdeath.
If the game get's to a halt because you just don't know what to do, it shouldn't hurt to look up what you have to do next.
Most RPG's on the SNES come to mind when saying this but also games like Metroid or Zelda can be quite chalenging in this aspect.
 
andsuchisdeath

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flashbackx said:
This is good shit... like a term paper. A+
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Thanks.

Bill Kilgore said:
I have to agree with andsuchisdeath.
If the game get's to a halt because you just don't know what to do, it shouldn't hurt to look up what you have to do next.
Most RPG's on the SNES come to mind when saying this but also games like Metroid or Zelda can be quite chalenging in this aspect.
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Thanks. But I don't really agree with what you're saying.
 
Tw3ek

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Part of the fun for me at least is finding new ways to do things or figure stuff out. Watching videos seems to ruin that just a bit.
 
andsuchisdeath

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Bill Kilgore said:
Care to elaborate?
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Certainly.

"I would imagine a lot of the charm in RPGs/non linear/ adventure games is savoring the unknown. Viewing a part of a game you've yet to experience yourself could certainly spoil the atmosphere previously accrued."

Exploration/navigation/discovery is a huge component to these types of games. The application of reflex/ twitch based skill takes a backseat. These are the types of games where I could agree that "looking things up" kills some of the magic.

For other types of games, "looking things up", IMO doesn't eliminate half the battle. Knowing a better way to do something isn't the same as knowing where to go. You can know how to do something but it might take you years to proficiently pull it off. Finding out where to go however, can be performed instantly after being understood when viewing an external source. I believe that can ruin a huge part of the charm in those types of games.

Is it bad to look up where to go in Super Metroid/SOTN/RPG/sandbox game? Of course not, people can play games however they want. I've just tried to illustrate previously though, that looking up info and watching videos for arcade style games does not produce the same effect as looking up info/watching videos for non linear exploration games.
 
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Kid Panda

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I can say for an adventure type game, (I'm clumping RPGs in this too), exploration is taken away when watching a vid or reading stuff about a particular part. But also it was proven later through some conversations with game developers in Japan they started to make parts of games difficult so the players would be forced to purchase a strategy guide. Course this also goes with the fact that Famitsu was getting kickbacks for high scores for games. And they also were involved in the production of the strategy guide. Go figure.

Man playing Alex Kidd in Miracle World back in the day was about impossible for some parts as you didn't know what the boss was going to do during the Janken matches. And don't even get me started about Wonderboy in Monsterland, that game had as many secrets as Milon's Secret Castle.
 
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Bill Kilgore

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To me if it just takes to long to figure it out i will look it up either way, knowing there might be some "magic" lost to me.
It's no fun in searching for more then 30 minutes to find out you just forgot to push a switch or pick up an item in order to proceed.
It just isn't practical, try the first Metroid without a guide for the first time, while i love the exploration -which was mindblowing at the time- i just don't have the patience to look in every nook and cranny for some missiles.
 
ebinsugewa

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Kid Panda said:
But also it was proven later through some conversations with game developers in Japan they started to make parts of games difficult so the players would be forced to purchase a strategy guide. Course this also goes with the fact that Famitsu was getting kickbacks for high scores for games. And they also were involved in the production of the strategy guide. Go figure.
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Where did you see this? This is the first time I'm hearing about it and now I'm curious.
 
Takumaji

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As someone who has written the occasional game FAQ and used a lot of them to get more in-depth info on certain games, I say that whatever gets you more fun outta it and leads to improved skills is a good thing in my eyes.

Savestates, cheats, credit-feeding etc. don't bother me. I normally don't refer to stuff like that because I enjoy beating or mastering a game on my own. However, a well-timed cheat can increase the fun but IMO it's very important to know when to use one. Using that stuff from the get-go ruins the fun IMO.

But hey, to each his own, eh.
 
ebinsugewa

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Just to clarify, I mentioned savestates in reference to starting at the beginning of a later level in a shmup or at a boss to practice, people seem to think I mean something more akin to cheating.
 
AJtheMishima

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For any fighter that pick up or want to pickup ill usually watch afew Japanese tournament videos just to get an idea what moves are good and what strings I should use at certain distances. Also will give me a general idea of what kind of pace the game has. But for anything other than a fighter I wont watch vids or anything. Takes the fun away imo.
 
joecommando

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AJtheMishima said:
For any fighter that pick up or want to pickup ill usually watch afew Japanese tournament videos just to get an idea what moves are good and what strings I should use at certain distances. Also will give me a general idea of what kind of pace the game has. But for anything other than a fighter I wont watch vids or anything. Takes the fun away imo.
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+1 this exactly
 
Reclaimer

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AJtheMishima said:
For any fighter that pick up or want to pickup ill usually watch afew Japanese tournament videos just to get an idea what moves are good and what strings I should use at certain distances. Also will give me a general idea of what kind of pace the game has. But for anything other than a fighter I wont watch vids or anything. Takes the fun away imo.
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After I've played a game a bit, I love watching some of the "masters" have a go at it. Usually it opens my eyes to new techniques I didn't even know existed, or how someone else approaches a hard spot in a completely different creative way.

This usually adds to my experience and extends my playtime further, it doesn't take the fun away.
 
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I prefer to try and beat the game "cold" at first, especially if it's an RPG or something that becomes essentially ruined if you look up strategies. For action games, SHMUPs, etc, it's not as bad, but I will still try to do it without outside interference.
 
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