SNES RGB?

Skips said:

You might fit in better with this guy . You both talk to people in a similar manner.

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That's a low blow. Kyuusaku is NOWHERE near the attitude of Drakon. Geez cut him some slack. I actually find his comments and suggestions to contribute. There's nothing shameful about being wrong (not saying you are, and not saying he is ether......I'm not a modder, heck I can't even solder a battery in a cartridge!). Being wrong is wonderful as it allows us to learn!

Kyuusaku said:

-Signal "strength" makes a difference to picture quality
-Discrete PPUs have different colors
-The existence of JP21 cables is proof of Nintendo's intention for RGB use with NTSC consoles
-1CHIPs have a cleaner/sharper/better/whatever picture

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The 1st and 2nd, I am not arguing at all. I only said the brightness was different and wasn't attributed to the PPU's, but the circuitry after it to the multi out. IIRC PPU1 in the SNES converts the digital signal from PPU2 (or maybe it's vice versa). Perhaps this is the improvement in the 1Chip, it's doing this better? I'm not sure, I don't know.

The existance of JP21 cables is indeed proof that Nintendo did intend for the RGB to used with the consoles on televisons, what other reason would they be sold with the capability? Not the sole usage, but don't you think it's silly to say that RGB wasn't meant for TV output on the SNES when they have SCART cables with RGB being sold for use with....televisions?

The 1Chip has undisputed video OUTPUT quality over the other revisions. This has been proven over and over. I can't tell you why it does other than updated hardware. I never mentioned it was due to colors. I don't know what to attribute it too, but it's a clear choice that the 1Chip SNES has a sharper and more crisp picture than any other revision.

He has good info, but holy crap, his delivery SUUUUUUUUCKS. Sorry if my "proof or gtfo" post was a big ol' deuce in your cheerios. Seriously man.

Although you gotta know that acting the way you did, dropping knowledge bombs with great prejudice and spite, is going to almost instantly cause people to ask for proof, or at least an explanation that isn't going to go over our heads. Not going to lie, went over mine ("you don't say....").

Again, I am sorry my RFQ was crude and offended you.

Skips said:

You might fit in better with this guy . You both talk to people in a similar manner.

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I've never seen Drakon post anything but shameless plugs for ill-conceived, horrifically executed, basic mod work so lolwut? If you were patronized by Drakon, the laughingstock of modding, you're brave to admit it...

Kyuusaku said:

I've never seen Drakon post anything but shameless plugs for ill-conceived, horrifically executed, basic mod work so lolwut? If you were patronized by Drakon, the laughingstock of modding, you're brave to admit it...

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Go talk to the guy and you will understand what i mean real quick. But then again you are thick as hell so you probably wont. Not referring to his work but how he carries himself. You both sound very much alike.

Pasky said:

The 1Chip has undisputed video OUTPUT quality over the other revisions. This has been proven over and over. I can't tell you why it does other than updated hardware. I never mentioned it was due to colors. I don't know what to attribute it too, but it's a clear choice that the 1Chip SNES has a sharper and more crisp picture than any other revision.

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I'm pretty sure that Kyuusaku is stating that the PPU's themselves are perfectly sharp, and that the components thereafter (resistors or whatever) is whats softening the picture, and that the PPU's in and of themselves are not the problem.

In other words, when he disagree's that the 1CHIP have a cleaner/sharper/better/whatever picture, he's referring to the PPU by itself, and not the signal from the Multi-Out.

SNES_Is_Best said:

I'm pretty sure that Kyuusaku is stating that the PPU's themselves are perfectly sharp, and that the components thereafter (resistors or whatever) is whats softening the picture, and that the PPU's in and of themselves are not the problem.

In other words, when he disagree's that the 1CHIP have a cleaner/sharper/better/whatever picture, he's referring to the PPU by itself, and not the signal from the Multi-Out.

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I don't know if the 1Chip includes the DAC. The quality loss can be attributed to that, quite frankly I'm kind of tired of replying to you, I can read exactly what he's saying myself and don't need interpretation.

Pasky said:

I don't know if the 1Chip includes the DAC. The quality loss can be attributed to that, quite frankly I'm kind of tired of replying to you, I can read exactly what he's saying myself and don't need interpretation.

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Then don't reply to me. I don't mind.

Nevertheless, I'd say give Kyuusaku a chance and test it if you don't believe him. Its does no good whatsoever to shoot him down without testing it first.

He might actually be right. I mean, what if Nintendo's PPU's are fine and that the problem is the transistors? Or perhaps the DAC?

Basically (if I understand correctly) he's saying that the 2 PPU's (original), and the revised PPU (1chip) have equal sharpness IF the components (transistors, dac, whatever, etc) are adequate.

But I seriously doubt anyone on this board will have the guts to prove themselves wrong, and Kyuusaku right, if he is right. So I doubt anyone is going to take his advice, cause for most people, admitting that they are wrong is a major blow to their ego.

Skips said:

As for this thread...

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This thread has seriously run its course. Arguing or fighting any further on the subject is pretty much like the above pic at this point.

SNES_Is_Best said:

But I seriously doubt anyone on this board will have the guts to prove themselves wrong, and Kyuusaku right, if he is right. So I doubt anyone is going to take his advice, cause for most people, admitting that they are wrong is a major blow to their ego.

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By all means, please step up and show us all.


All of this discussion is academic in that unless you are willing to heavily mod a machine, you are stuck with the facts that: Original 2 PPU SNES's have shitty video and 1 PPU unit's do not. End of story.

Sure, maybe you can jump through a bunch of hoops to fix up an earlier SNES, but why? Buy a 1 chip large unit or get a SNES mini and a very simple 3 wires and 3 resistors to restore RGB.

broken said:

Sure, maybe you can jump through a bunch of hoops to fix up an earlier SNES, but why? Buy a 1 chip large unit or get a SNES mini and a very simple 3 wires and 3 resistors to restore RGB.

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This.

SNES_Is_Best said:

I'm pretty sure that Kyuusaku is stating that the PPU's themselves are perfectly sharp

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Yes!!! The difference in signal quality between them should be negligible right off the pin. After the pin anything can happen. Also even though they should both have similar quality, the PPU2 and 1CHIP may have different electrical characteristics that must be considered when you interface with them, otherwise you may degrade the color accuracy or sharpness.

not the signal from the Multi-Out.

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Yes! The transistors that buffer the signal for the multi-out distort the signal slightly. It could have some effect on sharpness, but I think it will have a more noticeable effect on color accuracy.

Pasky said:

I don't know if the 1Chip includes the DAC.

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The 1CHIP ASIC includes the CPU and PPUs, including the DAC.

SNES_Is_Best said:

what if Nintendo's PPU's are fine and that the problem is the transistors? Or perhaps the DAC?

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The DAC is internal to the PPU2 chip.

Basically (if I understand correctly) he's saying that the 2 PPU's (original), and the revised PPU (1chip) have equal sharpness IF the components (transistors, dac, whatever, etc) are adequate.

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Not quite. I'm saying that the original PPU2 output is adequately sharp and if the 1CHIP's output is truly sharper, the extra sharpness doesn't matter because it will be imperceptible. I think what people are calling sharpness is either electrical noise inside the 1CHIP ASIC which is misinterpreted as sharpness because it makes pixel edges stand out more, or because the 1CHIP outperforms older SNESes when improperly connected to a TV.


It must be understood that the sharpness and color accuracy at the DAC pin is not the same as what's at the multi-out is not the same as what's across the coax cable arriving at the TV is not the same as what actually gets displayed on the TV. But if you do everything right the signal quality arriving at the TV will be very very close to what's coming directly from the DAC.

Finally if you adjust the signals right from the DAC of an original SNES and a 1CHIP to both have a compliant amplitude (meaning they're identical, and ready to send to a TV), the only visible difference in picture quality between them will be changes made to the DAC's linearity, and electrical noise (which normally isn't considered a good thing). I don't think Nintendo changed the linearity, but it's possible. A reason they might do this is to improve the brightness linearity at the display; CRTs are non-linear so if you want 50% blue brightness, you must pre-distort the DAC so that a 50% brightness value outputs 72% amplitude, which turns into 50% brightness at CRT.

Broken said:

Sure, maybe you can jump through a bunch of hoops to fix up an earlier SNES, but why? Buy a 1 chip large unit or get a SNES mini and a very simple 3 wires and 3 resistors to restore RGB.

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To properly mod an early SNES or 1CHIP takes the same number of steps! In both cases you need to build a video amp circuit and in both cases you need to attenuate the signal for compliance. If you're going to improperly mod the system so that compatibility much less accuracy isn't even guaranteed, in what position are you to argue about signal quality?

Kyuusaku said:

Yes!!! The difference in signal quality between them should be negligible right off the pin. After the pin anything can happen. Also even though they should both have similar quality, the PPU2 and 1CHIP may have different electrical characteristics that must be considered when you interface with them, otherwise you may degrade the color accuracy or sharpness.


Yes! The transistors that buffer the signal for the multi-out distort the signal slightly. It could have some effect on sharpness, but I think it will have a more noticeable effect on color accuracy.


The 1CHIP ASIC includes the CPU and PPUs, including the DAC.


The DAC is internal to the PPU2 chip.


Not quite. I'm saying that the original PPU2 output is adequately sharp and if the 1CHIP's output is truly sharper, the extra sharpness doesn't matter because it will be imperceptible. I think what people are calling sharpness is either electrical noise inside the 1CHIP ASIC which is misinterpreted as sharpness because it makes pixel edges stand out more, or because the 1CHIP outperforms older SNESes when improperly connected to a TV.


It must be understood that the sharpness and color accuracy at the DAC pin is not the same as what's at the multi-out is not the same as what's across the coax cable arriving at the TV is not the same as what actually gets displayed on the TV. But if you do everything right the signal quality arriving at the TV will be very very close to what's coming directly from the DAC.

Finally if you adjust the signals right from the DAC of an original SNES and a 1CHIP to both have a compliant amplitude (meaning they're identical, and ready to send to a TV), the only visible difference in picture quality between them will be changes made to the DAC's linearity, and electrical noise (which normally isn't considered a good thing). I don't think Nintendo changed the linearity, but it's possible. A reason they might do this is to improve the brightness linearity at the display; CRTs are non-linear so if you want 50% blue brightness, you must pre-distort the DAC so that a 50% brightness value outputs 72% amplitude, which turns into 50% brightness at CRT.



To properly mod an early SNES or 1CHIP takes the same number of steps! In both cases you need to build a video amp circuit and in both cases you need to attenuate the signal for compliance. If you're going to improperly mod the system so that compatibility much less accuracy isn't even guaranteed, in what position are you to argue about signal quality?

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Kyuusaku said:

Yes!!! The difference in signal quality between them should be negligible right off the pin. After the pin anything can happen. Also even though they should both have similar quality, the PPU2 and 1CHIP may have different electrical characteristics that must be considered when you interface with them, otherwise you may degrade the color accuracy or sharpness.


Yes! The transistors that buffer the signal for the multi-out distort the signal slightly. It could have some effect on sharpness, but I think it will have a more noticeable effect on color accuracy.


The 1CHIP ASIC includes the CPU and PPUs, including the DAC.


The DAC is internal to the PPU2 chip.


Not quite. I'm saying that the original PPU2 output is adequately sharp and if the 1CHIP's output is truly sharper, the extra sharpness doesn't matter because it will be imperceptible. I think what people are calling sharpness is either electrical noise inside the 1CHIP ASIC which is misinterpreted as sharpness because it makes pixel edges stand out more, or because the 1CHIP outperforms older SNESes when improperly connected to a TV.


It must be understood that the sharpness and color accuracy at the DAC pin is not the same as what's at the multi-out is not the same as what's across the coax cable arriving at the TV is not the same as what actually gets displayed on the TV. But if you do everything right the signal quality arriving at the TV will be very very close to what's coming directly from the DAC.

Finally if you adjust the signals right from the DAC of an original SNES and a 1CHIP to both have a compliant amplitude (meaning they're identical, and ready to send to a TV), the only visible difference in picture quality between them will be changes made to the DAC's linearity, and electrical noise (which normally isn't considered a good thing). I don't think Nintendo changed the linearity, but it's possible. A reason they might do this is to improve the brightness linearity at the display; CRTs are non-linear so if you want 50% blue brightness, you must pre-distort the DAC so that a 50% brightness value outputs 72% amplitude, which turns into 50% brightness at CRT.



To properly mod an early SNES or 1CHIP takes the same number of steps! In both cases you need to build a video amp circuit and in both cases you need to attenuate the signal for compliance. If you're going to improperly mod the system so that compatibility much less accuracy isn't even guaranteed, in what position are you to argue about signal quality?

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How has this reached 8 pages seriously, it is just RGb from a damn Super Nintendo!

ChuChu Flamingo said:

How has this reached 8 pages seriously, it is just RGb from a damn Super Nintendo!

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broken said:

Original 2 PPU SNES's have shitty video and 1 PPU unit's do not. End of story.

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BOTH have problems with picture quality, and the 2-PPU's are only a "little" softer. In fact, the 1CHIP has MORE issues than the 2 PPU console.

You cannot look at this pic - http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/framemeister_16bit.jpg

And honestly say that the SHVC-CPU-01 has crappy quality. Yes its less sharp, and here's what Fudoh did to "fix" that problem - http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=786605#p786605

BOOM, just like that. Sharpness turned on +1 click, and immediately its on par with the 1CHIP.

Sure, maybe you can jump through a bunch of hoops to fix up an earlier SNES, but why? Buy a 1 chip large unit or get a SNES mini and a very simple 3 wires and 3 resistors to restore RGB.

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You'll have to jump through many more hoops just to fix the ghosting, overdriven whites, and the impossible-to-fix glitches of the 1CHIP SNES than you will the original snes. Don't believe me?

Facts are here - http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=46303

Kyuusaku said:

The DAC is internal to the PPU2 chip.

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This is what I thinking. I was wondering if the digital RGB-output of PPU1 would need some sort of amp PRIOR to going into PPU2. Or maybe the internal DAC of PPU2 needs to be bypassed and a higher quality DAC needs to be used in its place, while still using all other functions of PPU2. Not sure about that. You'll have to forgive me as I obviously a noob with electrical theory/law.

I think what people are calling sharpness is either electrical noise inside the 1CHIP ASIC which is misinterpreted as sharpness because it makes pixel edges stand out more, or because the 1CHIP outperforms older SNESes when improperly connected to a TV.

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I'm wondering about this idea of "electrical noise" inside the 1CHIP ASIC, because I've noticed that its the only console I've owned that has a signal so strong, that every other console that I've owned look extremely weak in comparison. The overdriven whites in this case, are highly suspect, and I've noticed how the overdriven whites make certain pixels stand out more than others. Its very suspect....

Kyuusaku said:

This board probably has the most assholes of any I've encountered because the "bro" culture here encourages it. I'm not here for "the drama"

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You should take a peak at board.byuu.org. The people on there are the most stuck up irrational jerks you'll ever meet IMO.

Anyway, I don't see how you can continue to tolerate the constant trolling that people are doing to you on this thread.

All you did with your first post was make suggestions based on Scientific Electrical Theory (SCIENTIFIC theory, NOT mere conjecture) and people all of a sudden get in a defensive, pissed off, bent-out-shape, foaming-at-the-mouth nature immediately. That tells me that the Laws of Logic are frowned upon, which is sad.

SNES_Is_Best said:

Theory

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There lies the problem.

broken said:

Sure, maybe you can jump through a bunch of hoops to fix up an earlier SNES, but why? Buy a 1 chip large unit or get a SNES mini and a very simple 3 wires and 3 resistors to restore RGB.

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Yea, cause this guy sure seems like someone who does not have a lot of free time.......

SNES_Is_Best said:

This is what I thinking. I was wondering if the digital RGB-output of PPU2 would need some sort of amp PRIOR to going into PPU2. Or maybe the internal DAC of PPU2 needs to be bypassed and a higher quality DAC needs to be used in its place, while still using all other functions of PPU2. Not sure about that. You'll have to forgive me as I obviously a noob with electrical theory/law.



I'm wondering about this idea of "electrical noise" inside the 1CHIP ASIC, because I've noticed that its the only console I've owned that has a signal so strong, that every other console that I've owned look extremely weak in comparison. The overdriven whites in this case, are highly suspect, and I've noticed how the overdriven whites make certain pixels stand out more than others. Its very suspect....




You should take a peak at board.byuu.org. The people on there are the most stuck up irrational jerks you'll ever meet IMO.

Anyway, I don't see how you can continue to tolerate the constant trolling that people are doing to you on this thread.

All you did with your first post was make suggestions based on Scientific Electrical Theory (SCIENTIFIC theory, NOT mere conjecture) and people all of a sudden get in a defensive, pissed off, bent-out-shape, foaming-at-the-mouth nature immediately. That tells me that the Laws of Logic are frowned upon, which is sad.

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How about you get off your ass and actually go try some shit yourself instead of running the thread in circles like you have been for the past 6 pages or so. Most of this thread has been you posting what ifs trying to get people to get answers for you. It is time you go get some hands on experience for yourself. You don't mod so why the hell do you care? Go back to playing your original SNES, you seem to love it enough. At this point you sound like a broken record, and a really bad one at that.


P.S.

Who the hell registers on a Neo-Geo forum to only talk about Super Nintendo anyway? You have provided a lot of laughs for the slash chat crew but now its just irritating. Go be part of the community instead of only bothering people for information that benefits you.

broken said:

There lies the problem.

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That's why I say "SCIENTIFIC Theory, NOT mere conjecture". Your referring to a "Hypothesis", which is a "tentative" theory, or an assumption.

But in science, a theory is a set of abstract principles which purports to be a correct description of some aspect of reality.

This is a pet peeve of mine. You see,what most people call a ‘theory’ is really just a hypothesis. In science, after an hypothesis has been repeatedly corroborated with supporting evidence and experiment it can be called a theory. So the next time you hear a politician, newscaster or Joe Blow say he “has a theory”, listen for whether it’s really an hypothesis that has yet to be corroborated or confirmed. Actual theories are damned hard to come by.

And there is, and can be, only 1 valid theory of any aspect of reality (and there is only 1 reality). Just like there is only 1 valid, scientific theory of mathematics, chemistry, epistemology, relativity, etc, there is and can be only 1 valid, logical theory in electronics. So if you really think he's full of it, then test his scientific theory (not opinion!).

SNES_Is_Best said:

That's why I say "SCIENTIFIC Theory, NOT mere conjecture". Your referring to a "Hypothesis", which is a "tentative" theory, or an assumption.

But in science, a theory is a set of abstract principles which purports to be a correct description of some aspect of reality.

This is a pet peeve of mine. You see,what most people call a ‘theory’ is really just a hypothesis. In science, after an hypothesis has been repeatedly corroborated with supporting evidence and experiment it can be called a theory. So the next time you hear a politician, newscaster or Joe Blow say he “has a theory”, listen for whether it’s really an hypothesis that has yet to be corroborated or confirmed. Actual theories are damned hard to come by.

And there is, and can be, only 1 valid theory of any aspect of reality (and there is only 1 reality). Just like there is only 1 valid, scientific theory of mathematics, chemistry, epistemology, relativity, etc, there is and can be only 1 valid, logical theory in electronics. So if you really think he's full of it, then test his scientific theory (not opinion!).

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No

Skips said:

No

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Then don't test it. Noone is forcing you.