SNES RGB?

SNES_Is_Best · May 3, 2014

Pasky said:
The original snes is very low, which is why you notice it's a much darker image, even compared to other non 1chip SNES's. IIRC, they used the BA6592F encoder, which has no RGB amplification. RGB is amplified via transistors on the SHVC.

My SHVC uses the "S-ENC" encoder, so I don't know if that amplifies RGB or not. Fudoh's SHVC used in that picture looks pretty dang good. But I don't know if his encoder is the BA6592F, or the S-ENC.

Not that it really matters however. Why doesn't matter? Cause people are already doing Encoder-Bypasses with the 1CHIP-Mini, so they might as well do it with the SHVC. "THS" mod the SHVC and all should be well with brightness.

ApolloBoy · May 4, 2014

SNES_Is_Best said:
My SHVC uses the "S-ENC" encoder, so I don't know if that amplifies RGB or not.

Looking at the schematics I've found, the RGB is amplified through discrete circuitry separate from the BA6592F/6594AF, just as Pasky said.

Lemony Vengeance · May 4, 2014

You all realize that after 120 or so posts in this thread you all look like anal retentive dicks, right?

You know what I do with the SNES? I gut them, wire the rgb up to a jamma edge and play it on a cabinet. One chip, mini, original? *shrug* They all look the same to me

Lemony Vengeance · May 4, 2014

ApolloBoy said:
Looking at the schematics I've found, the RGB is amplified through discrete circuitry separate from the BA6592F/6594AF, just as Pasky said.

And anyone remotely familiar with the SNES hardware could have told you that. A lot of people who want RGB ONLY will cut the 5v line to the encoder to boost the RGB voltage a bit. I've found it doesn't help a single bit in my JAMMA SNES application. An amp is needed.

Caluk61 · May 4, 2014

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com...oader_av_mod__snes2jr._svideorgb_service.html

Sent ConHuevos a message. He is the expert.

SNES_Is_Best · May 4, 2014

Lemony Vengeance said:
You all realize that after 120 or so posts in this thread you all look like anal retentive dicks, right?

Haha.....as much as I hate to admit it (cause this post is not only directed towards others on here, but me also) your actually right.

Lemony Vengeance said:
One chip, mini, original? *shrug* They all look the same to me

Just goes to show that what I've been saying is true. That the sharpness difference between the original vs. 1CHIP/mini is not a big as some make it out to be.

DonBurgundy · May 4, 2014

Skips said:
Pretty much just tinker with the settings and maybe those magnetic strips they use to correct geometry in worst cases. Thats about all you can really do.

Thanks for info. What magnetic strips are you talking about?

Kid Panda · May 4, 2014

Lemony Vengeance said:
You all realize that after 120 or so posts in this thread you all look like anal retentive dicks, right?

You know what I do with the SNES? I gut them, wire the rgb up to a jamma edge and play it on a cabinet. One chip, mini, original? *shrug* They all look the same to me

+1
I can't imagine any of the people in this thread played a Snes on a RGB monitor back in the day. And no, that shitty monitor they used for demo units doesn't count.

XC-3730C · May 4, 2014

I really wouldn't call people in this thread anal retentive. I think they are passionate about this topic. Us people in the USA who have been kept in the dark about RGB and CRT monitors for so long can finally shed some light on things like this, and I for one think it's awesome.

By the way, is there a way to boost or improve the darkness on a non 1chip/mini SNES?

Pasky · May 4, 2014

Calling other people anal retentive dicks by rebutting that people aren't using a setup that probably less than 1% of the population even own (arcade monitor with a jamma SNES) making yourself look like an elitist dick sounds like a great argument. CRT's aren't going to last forever and most people are using LCD's now which show all the imperfections that CRT's don't show (I still prefer a CRT to LCD for older consoles myself). The fact remains, there are various models of the SNES and people are interested in which has a better video output.

Anyways, I had some free time today and borrowed a SVHC SNES. I even adjusted the color amplitude on the RGB lines. I replaced the original resistors off the ppu and put potentiometers acting as rheostats in their place to tune it in using an eye dropper with the capture card on an all white screen using the SNES Nintendo repair center rom, I was able to attain 251/251/251, without it, the colors were at 206/206/206 for pure white. This was to eliminate any clarity due to lack of brightness.

So here is a 1Chip SNES (non-mini) and the output of a SVHC SNES side by side (Resolution 2576 x 832), I won't bother to say which is which, as it should be fairly obvious. The 1Chip looks like emulator output in my opinion.

Original Size:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p57601uqmvs8nwg/SNES_Original.MKV

Double resolution (Resolution 2576 x 832) :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/emmxias7oqprnt3/SNES's.MKV

Again, download it and watch it in SMPlayer, VLCplayer or Potplayer. Watching it from drop box's player lowers the bitrate and effects quality (so much that it looks like the same video side by side).

Lemony Vengeance · May 4, 2014

Pasky said:
Calling other people anal retentive dicks by rebutting that people aren't using a setup that probably less than 1% of the population even own (arcade monitor with a jamma SNES) making yourself look like an elitist dick sounds like a great argument. CRT's aren't going to last forever and most people are using LCD's now which show all the imperfections that CRT's don't show (I still prefer a CRT to LCD for older consoles myself). The fact remains, there are various models of the SNES and people are interested in which has a better video output.

Anyways, I had some free time today and borrowed a SVHC SNES. I even adjusted the color amplitude on the RGB lines. I replaced the original resistors off the ppu and put potentiometers acting as rheostats in their place to tune it in using an eye dropper with the capture card on an all white screen using the SNES Nintendo repair center rom, I was able to attain 251/251/251, without it, the colors were at 206/206/206 for pure white. This was to eliminate any clarity due to lack of brightness.

So here is a 1Chip SNES (non-mini) and the output of a SVHC SNES side by side (Resolution 2576 x 832), I won't bother to say which is which, as it should be fairly obvious. The 1Chip looks like emulator output in my opinion.

Original Size:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p57601uqmvs8nwg/SNES_Original.MKV

Double resolution (Resolution 2576 x 832) :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/emmxias7oqprnt3/SNES's.MKV

Again, download it and watch it in SMPlayer, VLCplayer or Potplayer. Watching it from drop box's player lowers the bitrate and effects quality (so much that it looks like the same video side by side).

72 post, the majority of them in this thread. Ok. Gonna take you seriously.

Ever think I said what I did to elicit a response from you? I couldn't give two flying fucks what you think, or what miniscule differences there are between hw revisions, RGB wise. I play games on my SNES, both on my cabinet, AND on my PVM. Hell, if my LCD monitor was the only option, I'd play it on that. There's too many awesome games to not play it.

I'm not an elitist dick, I'm just a dick, and I'll stick it to anal retentive assholes like yourself all the live long day.

Pasky · May 4, 2014

Lemony Vengeance said:
72 post, the majority of them in this thread. Ok. Gonna take you seriously.

Ever think I said what I did to elicit a response from you? I couldn't give two flying fucks what you think, or what miniscule differences there are between hw revisions, RGB wise. I play games on my SNES, both on my cabinet, AND on my PVM. Hell, if my LCD monitor was the only option, I'd play it on that. There's too many awesome games to not play it.

I'm not an elitist dick, I'm just a dick, and I'll stick it to anal retentive assholes like yourself all the live long day.

I like this, "I could give two flying fucks what you think or the subject, so I'm gonna respond"

Also, it's 'couldn't'

. Stay mad bro. <3

Tw3ek · May 4, 2014

Pasky said:
I like this, "I could give two flying fucks what you think or the subject, so I'm gonna respond"

Also, it's 'couldn't'

. Stay mad bro. <3

"I couldn't give two flying fucks what you think"

Lemony Vengeance · May 4, 2014

Lemony Vengeance said:
I couldn't give two flying fucks what you think

Yep, Used that right.

BTW, Grammar is the last ditch, final bullet an anal retentive asshole fanboy can fire and you misfired. I'm still a dick, you're still an asshole, and I'm taking you to pound town.

SNES_Is_Best · May 4, 2014

XC-3730C said:
I really wouldn't call people in this thread anal retentive. I think they are passionate about this topic. Us people in the USA who have been kept in the dark about RGB and CRT monitors for so long can finally shed some light on things like this, and I for one think it's awesome.

I don't think he meant it as a personal attack. I thought he was just being funny and jokin' with us, while still dropping a hint of truth (ie; that we may possibly be going overboard on pixel-perfection)

Pasky said:
The fact remains, there are various models of the SNES and people are interested in which has a better video output.

This is a noble effort. No harm in that. But there are other factors (flaws) about the 1CHIP-Mini that are being ignored for the sake of sharpness alone. The 1CHIP-Mini actually has more problems than the original SNES (not referring to sharpness, but other things)

Lemony Vengeance · May 4, 2014

SNES_Is_Best said:
I don't think he meant it as a personal attack. I thought he was just being funny and jokin' with us, while still dropping a hint of truth (ie; that we may possibly be going overboard on pixel-perfection)

Winner winner chicken dinner.

SNES_Is_Best · May 5, 2014

Pasky said:
So here is a 1Chip SNES (non-mini) and the output of a SVHC SNES side by side (Resolution 2576 x 832), I won't bother to say which is which, as it should be fairly obvious. The 1Chip looks like emulator output in my opinion.

Original Size:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p57601uqmvs8nwg/SNES_Original.MKV

Double resolution (Resolution 2576 x 832) :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/emmxias7oqprnt3/SNES's.MKV

Again, download it and watch it in SMPlayer, VLCplayer or Potplayer. Watching it from drop box's player lowers the bitrate and effects quality (so much that it looks like the same video side by side).

Yea, it looks like an emulator, but is that necessarily a good thing? I know one thing is for sure, these old games were never meant to be viewed in such a way that makes every single pixel look razor sharp. Heck, Virtual Console on the Wii (via 240p) is actually sharper than the 1CHIP, but that doesn't mean its better. (turning up the sharpness on your display a few clicks will make the original SNES look as crisp as the revised one if that's what you desire)

People may hate me for siding with Lemony Vengeance, but he's not entirely wrong. Many people are actually focusing more on pixel-perfection than they are actually playing the console. In fact, I know of people (by their own admission) who spend more time tweaking their picture than actually playing games. If that ever happened to me, I would rather go back to my old 13" 1987 General Electrics CRT with RF only (which, actually had a fantastic picture believe it or not)

If people REALLY want to know which SNES is the best, then they need to collect ALL the facts. Picture quality is fine and dandy, but other factors are just as important.

With that said, I know the following post is going to upset some people, but that's not its intentions. Its completely objective, and delivers both sides of the picture.

I hope it helps - http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=46303

Kyuusaku · May 6, 2014

Some very bad info here. No time to go through every little thing but here are some points:

-IIRC the only SNES console that "officially" outputs TV-ready RGB is the PAL SNES, and only when used with the official SCART lead using "parallel back termination". Together they make a very crude TV driver, nowhere near ideal and the design seems to purposefully have a weird driver to prevent use with NTSC systems (don't have the schematics side by side to compare). Because the driver is just a few single stage common collectors there is poor linearity, any real video op amp will far far exceed the stock quality in metrics.

-NTSC SNES/SFC "provide" RGB on the multi-out, but it's not intended to be sent to a TV as-is, they're there for reserved use. All this talk about "strong"/"weak" signals is BS, TV signals are stringently standardized. If you follow the standards you get correct colors with correctly calibrated displays, period.

-series ac coupling capacitors don't make the picture "soft". Parasitic (and discrete) capacitance in parallel with the TV's 75 ohm terminator forms a low pass filter with the source's output impedance, and this makes the picture soft. Inappropriately high output impedance (as default) will lower bandwidth, softening pixel edges. It will also attenuate the signal since the output impedance and signal amplitude don't work out to the standard 0.7 Vpp into 75 ohms. I think the output is simply 0.7 Vpp into high impedance, meaning it's absolutely necessary to use a video amp (gain of 2, 75 ohm output impedance) to drive a TV. To get the best linearity tap before the level shift transistors.

-the THS amp doesn't perform any edge enhancement... (High frequency gain?)

-the only difference between the 1CHIP and earlier units output is ..... there shouldn't be a difference if you build a proper driver circuit and attenuate the signal levels to spec! The colors should be effectively identical unless the 1CHIP messed with the DAC linearity for gamma correction or something, which I don't believe is the case. It looks like the difference you see now is just due to two different high impedance output stages each inappropriately driving a TV, with different results. Both are equally wrong though.

SNES_Is_Best · May 6, 2014

Kyuusaku said:
Some very bad info here. No time to go through every little thing but here are some points:

-IIRC the only SNES console that "officially" outputs TV-ready RGB is the PAL SNES, and only when used with the official SCART lead using "parallel back termination". Together they make a very crude TV driver, nowhere near ideal and the design seems to purposefully have a weird driver to prevent use with NTSC systems (don't have the schematics side by side to compare). Because the driver is just a few single stage common collectors there is poor linearity, any real video op amp will far far exceed the stock quality in metrics.

-NTSC SNES/SFC "provide" RGB on the multi-out, but it's not intended to be sent to a TV as-is, they're there for reserved use. All this talk about "strong"/"weak" signals is BS, TV signals are stringently standardized. If you follow the standards you get correct colors with correctly calibrated displays, period.

-series ac coupling capacitors don't make the picture "soft". Parasitic (and discrete) capacitance in parallel with the TV's 75 ohm terminator forms a low pass filter with the source's output impedance, and this makes the picture soft. Inappropriately high output impedance (as default) will lower bandwidth, softening pixel edges. It will also attenuate the signal since the output impedance and signal amplitude don't work out to the standard 0.7 Vpp into 75 ohms. I think the output is simply 0.7 Vpp into high impedance, meaning it's absolutely necessary to use a video amp (gain of 2, 75 ohm output impedance) to drive a TV. To get the best linearity tap before the level shift transistors.

-the THS amp doesn't perform any edge enhancement... (High frequency gain?)

-the only difference between the 1CHIP and earlier units output is ..... there shouldn't be a difference if you build a proper driver circuit and attenuate the signal levels to spec! The colors should be effectively identical unless the 1CHIP messed with the DAC linearity for gamma correction or something, which I don't believe is the case. It looks like the difference you see now is just due to two different high impedance output stages each inappropriately driving a TV, with different results. Both are equally wrong though.

So wait, your saying that the 2 PPU's consoles can actually get razer-sharp picture with competent modding?

(and your right about the RGB output on most SNES's. They are simply in "reserve" and were not intended to be used. Heck 99% of the world used Composite/RF and Nintendo knew they would)

Lemony Vengeance · May 6, 2014

Kyuusaku said:
Some very bad info here. No time to go through every little thing but here are some points:

-IIRC the only SNES console that "officially" outputs TV-ready RGB is the PAL SNES, and only when used with the official SCART lead using "parallel back termination". Together they make a very crude TV driver, nowhere near ideal and the design seems to purposefully have a weird driver to prevent use with NTSC systems (don't have the schematics side by side to compare). Because the driver is just a few single stage common collectors there is poor linearity, any real video op amp will far far exceed the stock quality in metrics.

-NTSC SNES/SFC "provide" RGB on the multi-out, but it's not intended to be sent to a TV as-is, they're there for reserved use. All this talk about "strong"/"weak" signals is BS, TV signals are stringently standardized. If you follow the standards you get correct colors with correctly calibrated displays, period.

-series ac coupling capacitors don't make the picture "soft". Parasitic (and discrete) capacitance in parallel with the TV's 75 ohm terminator forms a low pass filter with the source's output impedance, and this makes the picture soft. Inappropriately high output impedance (as default) will lower bandwidth, softening pixel edges. It will also attenuate the signal since the output impedance and signal amplitude don't work out to the standard 0.7 Vpp into 75 ohms. I think the output is simply 0.7 Vpp into high impedance, meaning it's absolutely necessary to use a video amp (gain of 2, 75 ohm output impedance) to drive a TV. To get the best linearity tap before the level shift transistors.

-the THS amp doesn't perform any edge enhancement... (High frequency gain?)

-the only difference between the 1CHIP and earlier units output is ..... there shouldn't be a difference if you build a proper driver circuit and attenuate the signal levels to spec! The colors should be effectively identical unless the 1CHIP messed with the DAC linearity for gamma correction or something, which I don't believe is the case. It looks like the difference you see now is just due to two different high impedance output stages each inappropriately driving a TV, with different results. Both are equally wrong though.

schematics or GTFO.

Kyuusaku · May 6, 2014

Lemony Vengeance said:
schematics or GTFO.

Learn to read an app note or GTFO of modding.

Skips · May 6, 2014

Kyuusaku said:
Learn to read an app note or GTFO of modding.

So you come in here and say some shit without backing it up with actual diagrams or testing then post this when someone doubts you. If you are going to say something like what you did then link something that backs that up such as a circuit you built and tested, otherwise don't get butt hurt at members that actually contribute around here when they don't believe you.

P.S. Lemony does a shit load more than you do around these parts so...

fucking jackass.

Lemony Vengeance · May 6, 2014

Thanks skips.

And yes, I do a ton around here, but I do not profess to be an expert in ANYTHING except back-sassin' people. I'm serious about my request though. You claim to be an expert and spew techno-Jargon, yet, will not produce anything to back it up.

I'm waiting..

Also, I don't care who you are. Hell you could be Philo T. FRIGGIN Farnsworth, but talking down to people, even if they're not your technological equal, isn't cool man. If you want people to get as good as you supposedly are, you'll help them learn and see posts like "SCHEMATICS OR GTFO" for what they are, playful banter.

Kyuusaku · May 6, 2014

Skips said:
say some shit

You mean some shit you don't understand? Which assertions of mine do you think need "backing up" exactly?

Here I thought he was just heckling for a schematic.

Anyways, all you need is a vanilla video amp, such as the THS series, as I wrote in the post.

Do you know who really contribute nothing? People who post misinformation based upon empirical anecdotes, which is 97%* of what RGB modding discussion revolves around.

*Shit, I don't have a source for this

Lemony Vengeance said:
playful banter.

So you can dish it but not take it?

Also I never claimed to be an expert, I claimed that there is a lot of bad info in this thread. Obviously I felt qualified to comment or I wouldn't have (because I'm not trying to waste people's time).

-----

http://i.imgur.com/qB71l.png here is the basic schematic to start with (not mine, found via Google images...)

I would replace the input coupling capacitors with 100 nF and the output with 220 uF if more convenient, it doesn't matter, also the 22uF isn't critical since its value should be tailored to the SNES' specific power noise.

If the RGB signal levels are too high (must be verified with oscilloscope) a resistor in series with the input capacitor can provide the attenuation.

RGB possibly can be taken from the PPU directly due to the amplifiers high input impedance, but there's a high possibility it only sinks current, doesn't source any. In that case the PPU needs a pull-up resistor, which might effect the subsequent level shift circuit into the RGB encoder. So for ease I'd take output from the first PNP's emitter which should have fair linearity still.

-----

Anyways make of it what you will, I've more than done my duty. If I'm an asshole for sharing information on how to do things the right way some introspection is in order. Stay classy N-G.com

joe8 · May 6, 2014

Can anyone say definitively which is the best version of the SNES console to get (for the best picture quality in RGB)?
Is it the 1-chip, or does that have emulation?
Is there any way to tell which revision the console is, without opening the console?
You can check the serial, but that is apparently not 100% certain.

http://retrorgb.com/1chipsnes.html

SNES RGB?

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