Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 205

Thread: SNES RGB?

  1. #101
    Fug:DDDDD
    Pasky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    USA

    Posts
    2,927
    Any site that's gonna compare video quality using a camera and a television with scanlines (are they even the televisions? The scanlines look different in each version, is he comparing with a framemeister or something?) isn't really gonna hold any merit for me (not that his effort isn't appreciated). You need to use a raw capture with a capture card. Even in those videos you can see the picture is darker. I'll see if I can borrow a friends sound module SNES and compare RGB shots between all the versions.
    Last edited by Pasky; 04-25-2014 at 09:43 PM.

  2. #102
    Baseball Star Hitter

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Arizona

    Posts
    1,270
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasky View Post
    Any site that's gonna compare video quality using a camera and a television with scanlines (are they even the televisions? The scanlines look different in each version, is he comparing with a framemeister or something?) isn't really gonna hold any merit for me. You need to use a raw capture with a capture card. Even in those videos you can see the picture is darker. I'll see if I can borrow a friends sound module SNES and compare RGB shots between all the versions.
    I believe Bob uses an XM29 for the screenshots on that site.

  3. #103
    Fug:DDDDD
    Pasky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    USA

    Posts
    2,927
    Upscaler?

    EDIT:

    Oh rgb televsion.

  4. #104
    Neo Bubble Buster

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Nintendo Land

    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasky View Post
    Any site that's gonna compare video quality using a camera and a television with scanlines (are they even the televisions? The scanlines look different in each version, is he comparing with a framemeister or something?) isn't really gonna hold any merit for me. You need to use a raw capture with a capture card. Even in those videos you can see the picture is darker. I'll see if I can borrow a friends sound module SNES and compare RGB shots between all the versions.
    Its possible that the PVM-20M2U that he used on that site (retrorgb.com) has built in amplifiers for weak RGB signals. Regardless, I've gotten the same results on my sound module SNES (yea its darker, but not nearly as much as was shown with your capture card)

    We need to keep in mind that Nintendo knew that 99.8% of the population would be using RF/Composite. Heck, Sega went nuts with dithering patterns due to their butchered Composite blending them perfectly.

    For more info, go here - http://retro-sanctuary.com/compariso...differing.html
    Last edited by SNES_Is_Best; 05-05-2014 at 07:32 PM.

  5. #105
    Fug:DDDDD
    Pasky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    USA

    Posts
    2,927
    Ya I thought it was funny on my genesis when I used RGB and saw the sonic waterfall, how it looked much better through composite haha.

  6. #106
    Neo Bubble Buster

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Nintendo Land

    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasky View Post
    Ya I thought it was funny on my genesis when I used RGB and saw the sonic waterfall, how it looked much better through composite haha.
    I sense sarcasm

    I think that the dithering patterns in those pics of The Lion King and Earthworm Jim are the biggest offenders when views in anything other than composite. Sonic's waterfall isn't so bad though. Just looks like rain instead......

  7. #107
    Fug:DDDDD
    Pasky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    USA

    Posts
    2,927
    No Sarcasm, the waterfall just looks like vertical lines in RGB, it actually looks pretty nice when viewed through composite as it was designed.

  8. #108
    NEST Puppet
    DonBurgundy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Miami, FL

    Posts
    170
    Quote Originally Posted by Skips View Post
    All CRT's run the risk of having geometry issues, the BVM just happens to have more options to correct them. The 20L5 is the best PVM you can buy before stepping into the BVM family. Its image quality is on par to the BVM-20F1U, it takes up a lot less space than a BVM, it does HD up to 1080i, and its anywhere from 150-200 dollars cheaper than a BVM of the same size. You get a lot more bang for the buck from a 20L5 than you would from a 20F1U. I have had both the 20L5 and the 20F1U and I still prefer the 20L5 over it, its an excellent all in one monitor.
    As a fellow PVM-20L5 owner (also have a PVM-20M2MDU) I can only agree with this. Thanks for the geometry knowledge. My 20L5 has geometry issues and I'm hella annoyed by it! Any info on fixing this?
    Quote Originally Posted by theMot View Post
    On this site yes. It goes:

    Playing old ass video games > Having sex with hot women > Having a successful career > Hygiene > reading comics > collecting figurines > collecting amiibos.

  9. #109
    Schlonginator II: Judgment Dong
    GohanX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Next to your mom

    Posts
    9,162
    There are several Genesis games that used that trick for fake transparencies. The lights in the bar on the first stage of Streets of Rage 2 is another example.

  10. #110
    Baseball Star Hitter

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Arizona

    Posts
    1,270
    Quote Originally Posted by DonBurgundy View Post
    As a fellow PVM-20L5 owner (also have a PVM-20M2MDU) I can only agree with this. Thanks for the geometry knowledge. My 20L5 has geometry issues and I'm hella annoyed by it! Any info on fixing this?
    Pretty much just tinker with the settings and maybe those magnetic strips they use to correct geometry in worst cases. Thats about all you can really do.

  11. #111
    Neo Bubble Buster

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Nintendo Land

    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasky View Post
    I see the same ghosting effect on the non-1Chip as the 1Chip
    Back to this. I was just playing Yoshi's Island on my SNES Mini, and on the very first stage, you can see horrible ghosting all over the bright blue background, and not only with Yoshi, but with all other objects as well. Such as moving platforms, and even little mountains that aren't moving show the ghosting! It was very annoying. This tells me that bright backgrounds on games will always be an issue.

    Anyway, I pulled out my original SNES model, and then tried the same stage again, and there was no ghosting (in fact, I'll go so far as to state that your non-1chip video doesn't have any ghosting......or at least its 99% ghost free. Yet your 1CHIP is very pronounced with the ghosting, at least in my eyes)

    So I guess it really just depends on how much noise your PCB has. You know, there are lots of Low Pass Filter chips that can be purchased on eBay. I don't know much about those things, but maybe someone who knows what their doing can fix the problem with one of those chips.

    P.S. Wanna use the original SNES instead of the 1CHIP? But don't like the softer picture? Then turn up your sharpness settings a few clicks and boom, done! (well, at least on a CRT. Don't know about HDTVs)
    Last edited by SNES_Is_Best; 05-07-2014 at 05:53 PM.

  12. #112
    Neo Bubble Buster

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Nintendo Land

    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Skips View Post
    Pretty much just tinker with the settings and maybe those magnetic strips they use to correct geometry in worst cases. Thats about all you can really do.
    This is why I've held off on getting another Sony. So far I've had 4 Trinitrons (2 PVM-2030's and 2 consumer grade) and all of them had major geometry issues. Yet my older 20" Panasonic (shadow/slotted mask) has very little issues. I think Sony made a mistake when they started going flatter and flatter with their screens (flat vertically, then flat horizontally), as the less the curve, the harder it is to get great geometry. Basically when it comes to CRT's, if you have one that has excellent geometry, then stick with it!

  13. #113
    330 Mega Shock!!
    ApolloBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    United States

    Posts
    330
    I was redoing the mods on my SHVC-CPU-01 Super Fami tonight and just for shits and giggles I did a component mod, using the THS7314 in AC-coupled mode. I don't know if my eyes are playing tricks on me or not, but it looks like the picture is slightly sharper through component than RGB. Go figure. The ghosting and vertical bar are also a little more noticeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by aaronjmill View Post
    y'know he might be right, the technology inside the DVD player or TV is notoriously unreliable. probably best to take it to your local technology inside the DVD player or TV repairman. that stuff's pretty technical.

  14. #114
    Baseball Star Hitter

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Arizona

    Posts
    1,270
    Quote Originally Posted by SNES_Is_Best View Post
    Here's a really good question.

    Back to this. I was just playing Yoshi's Island on my SNES Mini, and on the very first stage, you can see horrible ghosting all over the bright blue background, and not only with Yoshi, but with all other objects as well. Such as moving platforms, and even little mountains that aren't moving show the ghosting! It was very annoying. This tells me that bright backgrounds on games will always be an issue.

    Anyway, I pulled out my original SNES model, and then tried the same stage again, and there was no ghosting (in fact, I'll go so far as to state that your non-1chip video doesn't have any ghosting......or at least its 99% ghost free. Yet your 1CHIP is very pronounced with the ghosting, at least in my eyes)

    So I guess it really just depends on how much noise your PCB has. You know, there are lots of Low Pass Filter chips that can be purchased on eBay. I don't know much about those things, but maybe someone who knows what their doing can fix the problem with one of those chips.

    P.S. Wanna use the original SNES instead of the 1CHIP? But don't like the softer picture? Then turn up your sharpness settings a few clicks and boom, done! (well, at least on a CRT. Don't know about HDTVs)

    The ghosting is on the old SNES models too, remember the part where I said its visibility will change based on your display? Its less pronounced on the dual PPU system because it is not as sharp, it is still there however. Like I said earlier in the thread, if you RGB bypass a two PPU system it gets a tiny bit sharper and the ghosting becomes much more pronounced right off the PPU. If anything the RGB circuit on the dual PPU NES is hiding the ghosting by marginally blurring it more. Go bypass it yourself and watch how much more pronounced the problem gets. I kinda feel this topic is just running in circles now despite giving information on it. Seriously, reread the thread as I have covered this. I have given information as to why its different and over the course of my modding and repair work I have had and tested this stuff on over 20 different RGB monitors and Televisions (just go ask the people in slash chat how I am always on the look out for nabbing CRT's, in fact I go pick up another one tomorrow morning). Ghosting visibility (even on the dual PPU systems) varied from TV/monitor to TV/monitor.

    Personally I feel everything that needs to be said on the ghosting issue has been said unless you are going to crack a system open and try your hand at fixing it (or post some actual mod results). For me its not even a big deal because even on my 1-Chip sitting two feet away from my PVM I might notice it once a week or so and only for a second when I do (and I am incredibly anal about video quality). Its seriously not a big deal unless you have a TV that makes it annoyingly prominent. I think out of all the Minis, 1-Chips, and dual PPU systems I have modded or repaired I have had one client actually notice the ghosting. Its just not a problem for most people. I honestly am not pulling the SFC apart any more to play with the issue since it has been confirmed its coming like that off the PPU. If you want 0 ghosting your best available bet is to use the XRGB mini and or a TV with strong noise reduction. Maybe Tim's little genny jail bar device will fix this issue (if and whenever he releases it) but currently the XRGB or an HDTV with strong DNR is the only known way to completely remove it from the picture. Although I do welcome a solution if anyone any theory crafting with at least a little testing to back it up.
    Last edited by Skips; 04-26-2014 at 03:00 AM.

  15. #115
    Baseball Star Hitter

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Arizona

    Posts
    1,270
    Quote Originally Posted by ApolloBoy View Post
    I was redoing the mods on my SHVC-CPU-01 Super Fami tonight and just for shits and giggles I did a component mod, using the THS7314 in AC-coupled mode. I don't know if my eyes are playing tricks on me or not, but it looks like the picture is slightly sharper through component than RGB. Go figure. The ghosting and vertical bar are also a little more noticeable.
    I'm guessing its because you are bypassing the caps and resistors on the stock circuit on the RGB out lines. Just doing a simple bypass by tapping the RGB out pins on the encoder got me the same results. And like yours since it got sharper the problems became more visible.

  16. #116
    Neo Bubble Buster

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Nintendo Land

    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Skips View Post
    The ghosting is on the old SNES models too, remember the part where I said its visibility will change based on your display? Its less pronounced on the dual PPU system because it is not as sharp, it is still there however. Like I said earlier in the thread, if you RGB bypass a two PPU system it gets a tiny bit sharper and the ghosting becomes much more pronounced right off the PPU. If anything the RGB circuit on the dual PPU NES is hiding the ghosting by marginally blurring it more. Go bypass it yourself and watch how much more pronounced the problem gets. I kinda feel this topic is just running in circles now despite giving information on it. Seriously, reread the thread as I have covered this. I have given information as to why its different and over the course of my modding and repair work I have had and tested this stuff on over 20 different RGB monitors and Televisions (just go ask the people in slash chat how I am always on the look out for nabbing CRT's, in fact I go pick up another one tomorrow morning). Ghosting visibility (even on the dual PPU systems) varied from TV/monitor to TV/monitor.
    Geez man take it easy! I wasn't ignoring anything you said. All I stated was that ghosting was virtually invisible or non-existent on my SHVC-CPU-01 (regardless of the display being used), and massively visible on bright backgrounds/ with my SNES Mini (with is a 1CHIP), and that probably varied depending on how noisy the circuit board is. I actually owned a 1CHIP-01 a while ago and sold it because the vertical bar and ghosting was more noticeable on it than any of my older SNES's.
    Last edited by SNES_Is_Best; 05-07-2014 at 05:54 PM.

  17. #117
    Neo Bubble Buster

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Nintendo Land

    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Skips View Post
    Neither of the amps are adding any sharpness to the picture, they just amp what is already there. Its sharper because you bypass any caps that were making the picture softer. You would get the same result as the THS7314 with the stock encoder if you lift the legs of the encoder in the SNES and run the the RGB lines directly to the AV port through 75 Ohm resistors. The encoder in the one chip is identical to the BA6596F found in the mini in terms of picture quality (pin out is even the same). This is a much simpler bypass and looks the same as the THS7314 bypass however it does not remove the center translucent bar if your 1-Chip has that issue. The mini is sharper than the stock 1-Chip because 99.9% of the RGB mods done are just taking RGB off the video encoder and passing it through resistors.
    Are you 100% sure there isn't any added sharpness?

    Look at these pics comparing a unmodded 1CHIP, to a bypassed RGB (THS) modded Mini

    http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic...902550#p902550

    The mini looks very much like it has edge enhancement (look at the white edges on the letters and notice they are only on the Mini, and the not the 1CHIP). If the THS amp adds any, it could just be accidental. OR, if its not adding any, then its possible that the SNES Mini is edge enhanced itself and the THS actually makes it visible.
    Last edited by SNES_Is_Best; 05-02-2014 at 10:13 PM.

  18. #118
    Fug:DDDDD
    Pasky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    USA

    Posts
    2,927
    Looks exactly the same with a different angle...and once again done with a camera and a TV, so not a good comparison.

    I have a 1Chip and a modded mini. let me put some direct screen captures from a PEXHD cap.
    Last edited by Pasky; 05-02-2014 at 11:49 PM.

  19. #119
    Fug:DDDDD
    Pasky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    USA

    Posts
    2,927
    SNES Non-mini 1Chip:








    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    SNES Mini 1 Chip:









    Color differences are from the mini's (slightly) stronger rgb signal.
    Last edited by Pasky; 05-03-2014 at 12:23 AM.

  20. #120
    Neo Bubble Buster

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Nintendo Land

    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasky View Post
    Color differences are from the mini's (slightly) stronger rgb signal.
    Yea only difference I can see is color. I reckon if we are going to post things on the internet, we shouldn't be taking pictures. Capture card is the best solution.

    The amp appears to make the colors less blue, and more accurate. Maybe that's why some people claim the 1CHIP-Mini looks too blue (S-RGB encoder issue perhaps). I know of people (myself included) who have taken notice of the revised PPU's very strong output, making whites look possibly overdriven. What do you think?

  21. #121
    Fug:DDDDD
    Pasky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    USA

    Posts
    2,927
    I'd say video output is identical other than color amplification being slightly higher on the mini. That particular 1Chip snes goes to 252/252/252 on a pure white screen. That mini goes to 255/255/255 (and I think it's actually beyond this strength by a tad).

  22. #122
    Neo Bubble Buster

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Nintendo Land

    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasky View Post
    I'd say video output is identical other than color amplification being slightly higher on the mini. That particular 1Chip snes goes to 252/252/252 on a pure white screen. That mini goes to 255/255/255 (and I think it's actually beyond this strength by a tad).
    How strong is the white-output compared to say, a PS1 or Genesis (via RGB)? Is it overdriven as some have said (ie; ApolloBoy said it does run a bit hot)

  23. #123
    Fug:DDDDD
    Pasky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    USA

    Posts
    2,927
    Genesis is much weaker, the Model 1's anyways, can't speak for 2's or 3's. I couldn't tell you about a ps1, as I dont have rgb on my ps1, i use a ps2 for component for ps1 games. I'd say the mini is slightly over driven.
    Last edited by Pasky; 05-03-2014 at 04:24 PM.

  24. #124
    Neo Bubble Buster

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Nintendo Land

    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasky View Post
    Genesis is much weaker, the Model 1's anyways, can't speak for 2's or 3's. I couldn't tell you about a ps1, as I dont have rgb on my ps1, i use a ps2 for component for ps1 games. I'd say the mini is slightly over driven.
    Slightly? I thought it was highly when compared to the original SNES. Check out this pic - http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/fr...ster_16bit.jpg

    The original SHVC-CPU-01 at the top, looks almost the same as the Megadrive and PC-Engine beneath. One things for sure, the Composite/RF output was what Nintendo/Sega/Hudson knew that 99.8% of the population would use, so they probably didn't concern themselves with the amplitude of the RGB output, and that's probably why the Composite output on most consoles tends to run a bit hotter.
    Last edited by SNES_Is_Best; 05-03-2014 at 07:09 PM.

  25. #125
    Fug:DDDDD
    Pasky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    USA

    Posts
    2,927
    The original snes is very low, which is why you notice it's a much darker image, even compared to other non 1chip SNES's. IIRC, they used the BA6592F encoder, which has no RGB amplification. RGB is amplified via transistors on the SHVC.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •