Playing Neo Geo games online against real live humans

Do you have anything, even virtual but replicating real world, at a test level to show off what you are working on? I don't know what kind of work you do but I have done a lot of networking in the past and in my current role I do a lot of interface programming over HL7 and some TCP/IP so I really want to see what you have. Hell you can for dimes set up a virtual through Amazon and configure it replicate what you want exactly and then have a ton of us on here test it out that way before you try to implement anything hardware wise.

I've got a description of how it would work. You'd buy a new system that runs both original physical and new download media, specially designed to run a 100% accurate version of that system, except it transfers joystick data and random number data and time stamp data over DC, and has a newer OS to accommodate net play. The system has a modern OS which lets you connect with another 1 (or more, for systems other than Neo Geo) system with this data. First you connect via standard network to to swap Direct Connect Numbers temporarily, handle Social functions like ID save and voice, and one way downloads, then you talk with your opponent on regular internet discuss what game you want to play, insert cartridge/select the download, agree who will be player 1 and player 2, and set the machine accordingly, then once Sprint DC numbers are exchanged, known to the machines, but not he humans, do a ping test for all parties, and then the original system boots, exactly like it normally would, then assuming you are in range, you sync up the machines, with timestamp and random number data being related normally on Player 1's machine, and Player 1 transmits those to the other machines. Then if Player 1 is the only controller that can access options, then Player 1 types i options (all the while having a live voice connection through standard internet) The options screen is seen by both. If both can change settings, they should discuss so they get what they want. Then they press start and the game. The Direct Connect handles joystick data, random number data, and timestamp data. The standard network handles Voice Chat, and then if there's enough demand for it, and if people are willing to pay for vanity, a leaderboard and or win loss record and other data that's programmed for specific games. It will be determined by demand. So some obscure Atari 2600 game by some obscure company would likely not have a leaderboard, but Combat is more likely to program win/loss records by the modern OS coupled with intelligent programming to track code or wins and losses and/or high scores and traditional internet. An obscure 2600 game can be played online, but chances are it won't track wins and losses. The Direct Connect is reserved for Joystick Data, Random Number Data, and Timestamp Data; stuff that has to be transmitted within 16 ms. The rest of the stuff will be handled by DSL/Cable.

The reason why it works is because it's a direct data connection that's meant to only be on direct connect, and only meant to be interpreted by Netrogames machines. It's not meant to play friendly with PC data, or traditional console data. It assumes both people are on the same private push-to-talk network. That's why every game would work, because it assumes you can beat the 16 ms ping time. It's not meant to work wit a traditional network, except in conjunction to do things impractical with limited bandwidth but quick ping network.

I know enough about it to know only that i can't do it by myself, which is why I'm sharing it. I don't know enough to do things Pope suggests. I know nothing about web protocols, FCC regulations, servers "reffing" games (except that they do), and other technical stuff. All I know is that if you can beat 16 millisceonds, your data will arrive quick enough to have a live joystick stream. And if you can do a live joystick stream, then every game will be playable online, all without programming special online versions. Also it would work exactly like a local game, so you don't have to update it constantly. I know data travels at close to the speed of light, but the network path is a labyrinth, which is why a 200 km trip takes 50 ms and not 1 ms.

If someone wants to help me, talk to me. I got an invention research company, Davison, saying they can build prototypes for $17K or less plus 10% of my share. I'll be wiling to share if someone helps fund it if you believe Davison. They have a less than 1% idea acceptance rate, and make most of their money with a percentage. Also I need help with a Kickstarter presentation. I was thinking of offering as a premium a vote on which old system first gets this treatment. I would like t know how uc it would cost to mass produce so can ofer working versions of the device if I know the final cost.

Man that's really unfortunate that you got banned on Sega-16 for who knows what. Makes me feel different about the mod staff there... Hopefully some network people on here can help you out. Neo Geo netplay would be amazing.

HeavyMachineGun said:

Man that's really unfortunate that you got banned on Sega-16 for who knows what. Makes me feel different about the mod staff there... Hopefully some network people on here can help you out. Neo Geo netplay would be amazing.

Click to expand...

Both Sega.com forums as well as Sega-16.com forums. I got the letter from Sega.com forums. The Sega-16 forum ban is more by association.

By the way, the perfect name for the Neo Geo network machine, the Neo Geo Net Get. (whether it's pronounced "jet" or "ghet" is up to debate.)

So how is this going? At all?

Another question....

I can't think of the name, but I know of a product that will allow you to dock your legitimate SNES games into a station that plugs into the computer, allowing you to play your own actual game, not a downloaded rom. Why wouldn't you be able to design something like this, attached to a dedicated small computer running something like GGPO or Supercade, with an ethernet port?

cornerstone said:

So how is this going? At all?

Click to expand...

16 posts, no update for 7 months.

Yep, this is moving right along :P

The reason why it won't work with a traditional connection is ping. You get sub-16 ms ping with Sprint Direct Connect. Davison said they could possibly do the prototype for $7000, and the $10K would be a way to make it in a reproducable state. I don't know how much one of these woud cost once produced. If i did, I can compute how much money I need to fund this project, so if an MVS with Direct connect atachment costs $100 / unit, then $125 w0uld be the cost to buy one once produced. I just don't know how much it will cost to use a Direct Connect for Data phone on Sprint (remember 3G (insta-ping dial up) is acceptable for this project. Raw data size is not important, speed is.) A Neo Geo has like 1.2k/s for both players. I don't know how much building 100 Neo Geos with smartphone connects for Direct Connect. If I can find out how much it costs for someone to build 100 Neo Geos, add the research cost, and divide it by 100. I just don't know how much it costs to build a Neo Geo today would be. If someone from corporate SNK can email me, I'd like to know. The closest I get is this forum.

I just theorized how Direct Connect can get ping times for data, and can mathematically show it fit under 33k if ping were low., I don't know how to build a 100% compatible Neo Geo, and modify it to work with a network. But the secret to this working is Sprint Direct Conect for a Low-ping connection. Otherwise you'd have to reprogram each game individually or have a skating effect.

I've got an update on Netrogames. The official movers and shakers at Sega licensing said they'd license a Netrogames Genesis if I can show it works. I talked to Atari just before they went bankrupt, they said should fund it. And AtGames, who makes the rights to both Neo Genesises and Neo 2600s said they'd like to do it, but they need they need specific permission from either Atari or Sega respectively in order to fund the prototype device. They can't willy nilly add features without permission. I'm talking to anthony Gaccione of Sega and Bob Spellerberg of Atari, if you give AtGames permission to research Netrogames, AtGames can fund it. And Bob, I lost hold of corporate Atari. The 212-726-xxxx number no longer works for Atari.

I also asked for D4's contact from Nintendo (D4 releases Neo Geo download games on Wii) and Nintendo said it's a Nintendo dummy company dealing with their partnership with SNK. I also tried emailing and calling SNK, with no luck.

I assume it costs anywhere from $20-$100 to produce an old system. If that's the case a $40,000 fund would work well when adding the $10,000. I'll consider kickstarting it.

I've got an update. Visit http://trycelery.com/shop/netrogames to buy a preorder of a Netrogames Sega Genesis Networked Clone. If you read the previous posts, it will use a low-ping connection like Sprint Direct Connect to physically connect 2 or more Genesises. (I would offer as an option Neo Geos except I don't have any corporate contact info for SNK Playmore, other than stuff that isn't answered, so I assume I don't have permission until I do.) I am charging $125 for a Netrogames Genesis. I will not collect any of the money and you will not be billed until 1000 Netrogames Genesises are sold. I am working with Anthony Gaccione of Sega of America on this. He may have to deal with superiors at Sega, so it's not quite final as far as Sega is concerned, but the first step looks promising. I also talked to someone else in licensing and they said, if I can show it works, they'll license it.

Also of note is my research partner, http://davison.com who told me based on my theory it will cost at most $17,000 and change to get 2 working prototypes and plans to build multiples at once. Another possible partner that I've got the ear of one person of is Chris Carroll of http://madcatz.com He likes the idea but has to discuss it with his people at his company. I recently emailed him saying if I can provide a plan for Netrogames Genesis and a fixed amount of money for manufacturing it, he'll get back to me. And for those who hate AtGames' versions of Genesises, I've got word that Sega is looking to reshop the Genesis Clone rights. So if Mad Catz hurries, and 1000 Genesis owners hurry, we can get Net Genesises made when Sega reshops the contract. And we will have added a feature not found in a traditional Genesis, networking games, using the original cartridges, and no network patches. It runs as is.

I am assuming AtGames got 40 Sega Genesis ROMS and a mini-Genesis made to retail for $40 US, so it cost at most $10/unit to make Neo-Genesises WITH THE RIGHTS TO 40 GENESIS TITLES in bulk, so it'd probably be a little more expensive to networkize it.

And me and Anthony thought of some cool ideas, like a FREE CLASSIC GAMING NETWORK, where all you have to do contact an opponent is watch a commercial. It takes 10 to 30 seconds anyway to establish a connection, so why not show a commercial. You'll have to wait anyway. Might as well get paid to wait with a free network. This is totally up to Sega and third parties, but I suggested where you download whatever Sega made and Sega third party games people are willing to deal with the right with, and give them for free. All you have do is watch one commercial to access the game once you "turn on" the genesis. Meaning you only get a commercial when you first boot the game. Once it's loaded, play as long as you want, or until you change online opponents or change games. A new booting of the game is a new commercial.

We will have Sega CD and 32X add ons made for this system coming soon if this succeeds, as well as Master System, Saturn and Dreamcast in the future. Hopefully Atari, SNK, Intelliviison, Colecovision, Bally, Magnavox, Panasonic, Emerson, whoever owns the rights to the Turbo Grafx 16 (I believe it's Konami, because they bought out Hudson) , and (saving the current players for last) Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo will come on board eventually if the Net Genesis succeeds.

So if you want a Net Neo Geo, either "hold you nose" and support a 16-bit Net Genesis, or get me in contact with an SNK executive, and if they say yes, I'll add a Neo Geo to the lineup. No time limit. But the sooner I get 1000 buyers, the sooner Net Neo Geo comes out.

Now, I don't want to be a debbie downer or anything, but has the software/hardware piece that would take inputs from a console via bluetooth to a phone running sprint direct connect been demonstrated yet? I think the theory behind this is feasible, but to start to raise funds to create a prototype before a PoC demo is completed seems a bit pre-mature IMO. Especially considering I'm not part of Sprint Direct Connect, and entrusting the lively-hood of a product to a service that's been relatively stagnant on an existing carrier gives me my own concerns. Mostly around how easily it may adapt to alternative technologies if Sprint up and canned the Direct Connect protocol/feature to apply funds elsewhere. Not to mention the benefit ahead of time of being able to advertise "Hey, do you have AT&T? It will work with your existing phone, do you have Sprint? It will work with that too" etc.

I just chose Sprint because they own Nextel, who has the most famous low ping service. The push to talk is more used and more experienced than AT&T's and Verizon's. The whole reason why any push-to-talk network works is because the network is owned by one company from start to end. It would be impractical to have an AT&T Phone for an opponent with AT&T, A Verizon phone for an opponent with Verizon, a Sprint Phone for An opponent with Sprint. And imagine playing Bomberman and people having different phone carriers. Even if you have all 3 phones, if 2 people have one phone, both of them different, there's no way you can play Bomberman all together.

Unless..

I'm thinking of a PTTX, a Push to Talk Exchange, kind of like cell phone towers except their specific purpose is to have an AT&T, a Verizon, a Sprint, and a T-Mobile customer within range play the same game each using a different service. You'll probably lose a little ping time. If you lose 1 ms, your range drops from 1600 to 1400 km assuming 66% efficiency/60 FPS, which you'll probably gain more opponents by crossing networks than by extending range, but if you lose 10 ms per transfer, you can't do it. Lose 5 ms and your range drops to 600 km.

If I knew a PTTX would only lose 1 ms and could be done, I'd do it, but I don't know if the various push to talks play nice with each other. Even if I did, I don't know how much ping I'd lose.

The whole thing hinges on Push to Talk (or for Sprint people, Direct Connect). Whoever has the Best direct connect service reaching the most people should work. Speed isn't an issue, because most game data can fit under 33k.

As for the proof of concept, the Bluetooth device would relay the data squelches into the Netrogames low modem. It's not the modem that's special, it's the connection.

But I will compare Push to Talk networks. Bits/second is not important. Ping time, extensiveness of PUSH-TO-TALK coverage, and cost of Push to talk plans and minutes are important. I'll do a little research and get back to you and see if the Sprint network is the best for push to talk if I had to pick exactly one network.

I got a couple updates.

First I talked to Adam Laatz in the Japanese office of SNK PLaymore. They said I have an interesting product, but do not want to be the guinea pigs on something that I have no experience making. So maybe when I sell 1000 Netrogames systems, they'll come on board. If you really want an Online NEo Ge, you might have to support a Genesis. I'll know in 1 week whether I'll have another option, Intellivision. All that matters is if AtGames adds net play to Intellivision game or not. If they don't the answer is probably, but they get first rights to Intelivision, but Intellivision has enough control where AtGames says no to net play, they can license me to be the netplay system.

Second, Sprint is the cheapest and most effective way to get online, assuming you had no cell phone plan before. Their device is an independent device which in 4G area can house a 20 player connection (the most you need is 12 players for a Saturn) And can house 3G worth of data in a 3G setting (at 33 kb/s, a 5-10 player game on 3G, depending on reception) And each of the streams are independent streams, meaning it's 33 kb/s for EACH PLAYER can come in independently, so it's basically a mid-broadband connection with low ping. I don't know if Verizon's networks combines the multiple chat room people into 1 33 kb/s stream, or if the up to 50 separate people, are separate streams. AT&T no longer has push-to-talk, and T-Mobile NEVER had push-to-talk. So there's only 2 players, Sprint and Verizon. Verizon requires a cell phone subscription which can cost the regular rate, and add $5, but Sprint Direct Connect device is independent and costs $20/month.

i only have about half a clue what is going on in here, but man i hope this actually materializes into something.

Maybe I'm getting more and more cynical as I age but this just seems like a scam. To be fair, I only understand maybe a 1/4 of the tech jargon that is being espoused but something just seems off. I clicked on the trycelery link and it links to a page that is no longer there. That Davison site is a generic invention site. I hope I'm wrong and the OP seems like an intelligent/nice individual.

Davison accepts less than 1% of ideas. They make most of their money in the 10% share. As for the Try Celery site, I discontinued it because I heard a rumor that the Sprint Network might not work the way I expect it to. Plus I didn't want to charge too little for a system to be on the lurch for 100 systems I can't afford. But if it's too expensive, I will not get enough buyers. Are these reasonable assumptions, would a 100% compatible Genesis be buildable for $40 retail price, like the AtGames Genesis with a cartridge slot? Or do they use chips that emulate and may be incompatible? You see the dilemma.

I decided not to beg the average person for money, because I found hope in www.SprintAccelerator.com , Sprint's own program for innovative Cellular newbies. If I submit it then, I'll hopefully get the $20k in funding. And I talked to Davison, and they said they'll send a contingent from Pittsburgh to Kansas City if I get the $20k. Next year's submissions start in September. Now I don't have to beg. Wish me luck.

By the way would $125 be cheap enough to make a Net Genesis attractive, yet expensive enough where I can comfortably make 1000 for $125,000 including the $18,000 research. I understnad the deal would be sweeter if Sega found a way to furnish its own ROMs. This with hopefully no money for the service, as it will be paid for by advertisers.

A little help would be nice.

tripletopper said:

Davison accepts less than 1% of ideas. They make most of their money in the 10% share. As for the Try Celery site, I discontinued it because I heard a rumor that the Sprint Network might not work the way I expect it to. Plus I didn't want to charge too little for a system to be on the lurch for 100 systems I can't afford. But if it's too expensive, I will not get enough buyers. Are these reasonable assumptions, would a 100% compatible Genesis be buildable for $40 retail price, like the AtGames Genesis with a cartridge slot? Or do they use chips that emulate and may be incompatible? You see the dilemma.

I decided not to beg the average person for money, because I found hope in www.SprintAccelerator.com , Sprint's own program for innovative Cellular newbies. If I submit it then, I'll hopefully get the $20k in funding. And I talked to Davison, and they said they'll send a contingent from Pittsburgh to Kansas City if I get the $20k. Next year's submissions start in September. Now I don't have to beg. Wish me luck.

By the way would $125 be cheap enough to make a Net Genesis attractive, yet expensive enough where I can comfortably make 1000 for $125,000 including the $18,000 research. I understnad the deal would be sweeter if Sega found a way to furnish its own ROMs. This with hopefully no money for the service, as it will be paid for by advertisers.

A little help would be nice.

Click to expand...

Well I can't help as my field of expertise is in healthcare but if true I do wish you the best of luck. It's a stellar idea and I'm all for entrepreneurship and hope you are able to reach your goals. Good luck man.

I decided to restart the trycelery site above. Two things I found out. 1) The Sprint issue I was worried about, whether you can simultaneously talk and listen and go beyond 33k is answered in the fact that Direct Connect's "one person at a time" is a restriction of the app/phone, not of the network. 2) I can still ask. I may be surprised.

I was just told that if this doesn't pan out well that I could be in fiscal or legal trouble, if Davison can't produce the results in under $18k, and they find it's no longer feasible to make it, they might abandon it. Also I STILL might not rase enough money to cover 1000 Netrogames devices if the research goes south. I think it'd be better to ask help from corporate America than the general public. If I wanted to get uber-rich over it, I would have not given away the secret on the internet. If someone else takes my concept of a low ping network and uses it, hopefully they'll get in contact with me ands throw me some sort of bone. If I knew how to build such a device I would. But since I don't and just know enough where if I had chess pieces I can move and capture the goal. It's easier to get big help from one person than to get a thousand little helps from 100 people. And I don't know what the consequences If I spend research money, the results come up snake eyes and I can't fully refund everyone. I don't know if I can legally say you may lose $18 if the research fails but the rest will be refunded. Instead of asking, I'll forget it. That's why in about 5 minutes from now, the trycelery site will no longer work.

make a kickstarter its that simple

1) I tried kickstarter, but they wont let you do something if someone else is doing the research. So Trycelery worked better for me. 2) The general concept of this research being a possible failure or the products are too expensive to build. I couldn't take the money knowing those might be possibilities. And I don't think too many people would invest in something which may or may not come up right.

tripletopper said:

I got a couple updates.

First I talked to Adam Laatz in the Japanese office of SNK PLaymore. They said I have an interesting product, but do not want to be the guinea pigs on something that I have no experience making.

Click to expand...

And yet they let Tommo make the NGX. So according to SNK's way of thinking...just make shitty product after shitty product and then after 10 shitty products, they'll be on board for the 11th shitty product!

I found possible funding from Sprint themselves. Since they are the only ones with a consistent low-ping network, they could help. I've got to show there's support in the gaming community for this device. If you're interested, follow/friend "Brian Ciesicki" on Facebook.com, and click the Sprint Accelerator link on my Facebook page. This is a no-cost way to support more online games without having to re-program them for the network. (In that case only the most popular 1% of retro games get online, whereas my idea makes everything online.) And this would be for every system, Genesis, 2600, Neo Geo, etc..

This beat begging individuals for 20 bucks here, 20 bucks there. Also I avoid the legal liability of not delivering what I promise. If Sprint likes the premise enough, they'll fund it.

Four years later...is there a prototype of this? Sounds cool!