Tell me what games I should play thread.

kernow said:

I've never liked the neo shooters, only one I can have any fun with is aero fighters 2 and thats just for fucking about really.

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I always liked Blazing Star - and I'll break it out from time to time...

kernow said:

I've never liked the neo shooters, only one I can have any fun with is aero fighters 2 and thats just for fucking about really.

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blazing star is pretty bad ass, but its kinda broken and unbalanced to play for score

edit....great minds, mike.....great minds

lolz

If I want to get better at a shooter and try to score I'll play Pork or DOJ or something along those lines.

If I want to sit down and have a fun playthrough I'll bust out the PC Engine and fire up Lords of Thunder or Download.

I think alot of people who are casually into shooters don't realize that Raizing and Cave games are completly built around scoring. That is the whole point of them. They also just happen to have some of the best art, presentation and music in the genre. But if you don't want to put in the effort to learn the scoring mechanics don't bother playing.

Sure you could sit there and credit feed your way through but it's not fun and it's definately not satisfying. Playing for score also isn't an elitist thing either. I play for score and I'm pretty terrible. But it's still satisfying when you break your own score and put you initials on the score table.

I also don't know anyone who only plays Cave games. I have a good handful of PCBs and half of them are Cave or Raizing boards but I'll still put in Sengoku Blade or Xexex every now and then. That's just on the cabs that doesn't even take into account stuff on the Saturn, PS2 or Dreamcast.

Terry330 said:

I think alot of people who are casually into shooters don't realize that Raizing and Cave games are completly built around scoring. That is the whole point of them. They also just happen to have some of the best art, presentation and music in the genre. But if you don't want to put in the effort to learn the scoring mechanics don't bother playing.

Sure you could sit there and credit feed your way through but it's not fun and it's definately not satisfying. Playing for score also isn't an elitist thing either. I play for score and I'm pretty terrible. But it's still satisfying when you break your own score and put you initials on the score table.

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QFT case in point Battle Garegga. If you dont control the rank you are screwed. Game is best played for maximum scoring opportunites not credit feeding.

TonK said:

Wow, awesome response man!

I'm glad you elaborated on key points in my post.

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It's difficult to elaborate since you're not making much sense. You get your panties in an uproar when someone says it's stupid to like only one subgenre or company, and then you proclaim your undying love for Gradius, Fantasy Zone, and Dreamcast shooters. Not to mention you say that Mars Matrix sucks and Giga Wing 2 is amazing, which is like saying the color pink sucks, but light-red is great.

TonK said:

Truth be told - the scoring systems on the games I own are fantastic - and its very rewarding.

I mean, just cause I don't like the games you own shouldnt bother you.

You don't like Ketsui - did I sit there and question you about it after you played my board?

Why do you care?

Why does anyone care?

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I can understand that - I just don't really get into overly-complex (from my point of view) scoring systems - I don't "get" them.

As for Ketsui, nothing aginst it - it just didn't blow me away like, say, Galuda. The scoring system with the necessity of risk is cool, admittedly, and adds a new dimension to an old genre. I'd like to play it again, but I'm still not sure it'd be my cup of tea.

TonK said:

But I don't "get into" those games like i do with what I own now.

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I can understand that - with the scoring systems in Cave games, there's a level of depth that many other shmups can't offer. I guess you and I just differ in our opinion of what makes a shmup great. And hey, that's fine.

mmsadda said:

I can understand that - I just don't really get into overly-complex (from my point of view) scoring systems - I don't "get" them.

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just a heads up...galuda's scoring is way more complex than ketsui's....

what games are you referring to specifically?

cave scoring systems are far less complex than most raizing titles....they tend to be pretty straightforward, and especially when you have access to strategy threads and guides, not to mention superplay's, that break it all down, its not that much to take in....

tbh, with most cave games, you just need to learn 'how to play it right'....the scoring aspects arent something to really be consciously thought about during play....you play it right, you score....that simple

i think once you get a little more experience under your belt with a wider range of cave's titles and danmaku in general you will see what i mean.....

i know when i first got serious about cave i found some games strategy threads daunting and confusing....it can seem more complex than it really is
best advice is this....get a little familiar with the scoring mechanics of said game and maybe watch the first couple of stages in a superplay to get a basic idea of 'how you should play' and then just play it... a lot....

as stated earlier, cave games are built around scoring....they arent meant for casual play or survival play...if you approach them in this way, you will be disappointed

Quite frankly, Galuda is fun to play for survival.

mmsadda said:

Quite frankly, Galuda is fun to play for survival.

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and because of the bullet canceling involved in the scoring system, its actually easier if you play properly for score

you have to understand, playing for score doesnt necessarily mean you are gunning for WR's and shit.....just playing the game properly, as it was designed and meant to be played

What do you mean "bullet cancelling?"

I'm always up for the older horizontal shmups:

Area 88
Ordyne
Air Buster
Parodius Da!

I don't think I ever ran into a shmup I didn't like. The first Cho Aniki comes to mind (PC Engine)and not because of the subject matter, but because of the mechanics of the game. I also do prefer Blazing Star over Pulstar. Again, it's just my personal preference.

As for vertical shmups, Ibara has my attention right now.

jonny5 said:

you have to understand, playing for score doesnt necessarily mean you are gunning for WR's and shit.....just playing the game properly, as it was designed and meant to be played

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well put, Im just learning this now

although when im first discovering an area or new level I go back to survival mode for awhile till I think I've got the hang of it

But yeah when playing for both as the game was meant to be played makes everything really come together and makes for a more complete experience

mmsadda said:

What do you mean "bullet cancelling?"

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you did play this game, right?

this is what ive been trying to tell you.....unless you are playing the games for score(read: properly) you will not be experiencing the game as it was meant

but ya....in galuda, when you switch to kakusei(the bullets slow down and go pink) and kill the enemy, it cancels the bullets and turns them into coins(score)...so basically by playing for score, the big thicker patterns that would give trouble if you were playing for survival simply disappear and become score

theres a bit more to it(you have a jewel meter and a coin meter that work in conjunction with each other that is built up with the different shot modes), but i dont wanna bog down this thread....get over to shmups and read some ST

its pretty straightforward

voltronbadass said:

well put, Im just learning this now

although when im first discovering an area or new level I go back to survival mode for awhile till I think I've got the hang of it

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in my experience its a bad idea to ever play these kinds of games for survival, becuase you will often develop bad strategies or work out bad routes and then once you go back to playing for score you have to unlearn, which can be even harder

sometimes you just gotta lay back and let the game have its way with you for a bit until you start to get it....sure it might hurt a bit a first, but it makes it all the more rewarding once you finally start to see marked improvements....its very encouraging

jonny5 said:

you did play this game, right?

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Yeah, he played my board.

But this is why I don't really value his opinion (on shooters) - he has no idea what he is talking about, and won't listen to me when I tell him a game is bad.

Now if you'll excuse me, DOJ just showed up.

jonny5 said:

you did play this game, right?

this is what ive been trying to tell you.....unless you are playing the games for score(readroperly) you will not be experiencing the game as it was meant

but ya....in galuda, when you switch to kakusei(the bullets slow down and go pink) and kill the enemy, it cancels the bullets and turns them into coins(score)

theres a bit more to it, but i dont wanna bog down this thread....get over to shmups and read some ST

plus if i break it down i will more than likely word things poorly and make things seem more complex than need be....dont wanna confuse you

its pretty straightforward

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Okay. I'm with ya, just didn't know it was called "bullet cancelling" - I've been doing that the few times I've played, generally when there are as many bullets as possible from one enemy. Granted, I'm not too good with the timing...

I guess that leads me to the conclusion that the scoring system in Galuda is intuitive, whereas in Ketsui it's counterintuitive (in the sense that you have to be as close as possible to an enemy to score well - this goes against survival instinct)

THAT is what makes Galuda better than other Cave games, aside from the stellar presentation and whatnot - the fact that it plays intuitively.

mmsadda said:

Okay. I'm with ya, just didn't know it was called "bullet cancelling" - I've been doing that the few times I've played, generally when there are as many bullets as possible from one enemy. Granted, I'm not too good with the timing...

I guess that leads me to the conclusion that the scoring system in Galuda is intuitive, whereas in Ketsui it's counterintuitive (in the sense that you have to be as close as possible to an enemy to score well - this goes against survival instinct)

THAT is what makes Galuda better than other Cave games, aside from the stellar presentation and whatnot - the fact that it plays intuitively.

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OK, dude - do some research before you speak.

Yes, the scoring in Ketsui is counterintuitive.

But, there is WAY more to the scoring than just being close to an enemy.

Okay. However, that part of scoring in the game is still counterintuitive. My point stands. Tell me I'm wrong.

come on guys....were all friends here....

ketsui and galuda are both awesome games.....galuda is probably an easier first step for somebody new to cave/danmaku, as its way easier(last boss withstanding)and i think the aestethics appeal more to a broader mix of people...plus everybody likes trance apparently
im glad to see you showing an interest the games tho collin

i think we will have another junky in the near future ...heh....ask TonK....shits like crack, but more expensive

good advice there jonny, I deffo see your point about learning it wrong or getting used to bad habits

I'll keep it in mind

voltronbadass said:

good advice there johnny, I deffo see your point about learning it wrong or getting used to bad habits I'll keep it in mind

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glad to be of help

ya...bad habits are the worst...especially in this kind of game....if you start developing strategies that involve bombing through hrad parts or using routes that avoid dense patterns you are more than likely doing things the exact opposite of how you would if you were scoring....

i dunno about you, but i tend to develop hard and true routes that i follow, and i find it very hard to deviate from that once its become engrained in my runs.....so if i allow bad habits into that, im fucked in the end cuz i i will have to shelf the game for a LONG time(long enough to forget stuff) before i can go at it again with a fresh mind

but above all else, play games how you are comfortable playing them.....if you arent having fun playing a game, whats the point, right?

You bring up a good point, Jonny. And I'm not claiming to be anything more than a complete n00b to the genre - I've played a little bit, and made some very basic observations. Frankly, I'm not sure why TonK feels the need to keep bringing that up.

I keep saying "I'm new to the genre. I've played X game a bit, and not really a fan." to which Mike says "No. You're wrong." I'm sorry - HOW specifically is my opinion a factual error?


But yeah, Galuda is a FANTASTIC first step - makes a subgenre that I never appreciated before actually seem quite appealing.

honestly, i think you would probably get the scoring in ketsui faster than galuda....less to keep track of other than enemy bullets and your proximity to enemies

once you get familiar with the patterns, its just a matter of practice....

being close to the enemy isnt that bad if you know what hes gonna shoot and what enemies are coming up....

i guess its kinda memorizing, but really, if you play even like 4-5 credits a night...after a week or 2 you are gonna start remembering the stage layouts and enemies and stuff

just like any genre....as you become more familiar with a game, it seems less daunting and easier to tackle....

the problem with cave(and danmaku in general) is it doesnt have a friendly learning curve.....but once you get the feel for a game its smooth sailing....it just takes a bit of perserverance to get past the intial raped/helpless feeling

as for the counterintuitive thing.....guess it depends on the player to a degree....old school shmup players would be used to hanging back and bombing....people who play more modern cave type stuff are aware of the finer points of these games and would approach it differently

if you hang back it takes longer to kill stuff and they have more time to spam the screen and the patterns can expand/interact more.....

if you smoke them quickly as they come on screen it becomes more manageable.....although you need to be careful you dont run into enemies

as a first step from classic shmups to present day games, ya, i can see it being counterintuitive....

but if your used to this stuff, not so much

whatever....it doesnt really matter....opinions are like assholes...everybodies got one....

jonny5 said:

as for the counterintuitive thing.....guess it depends on the player to a degree....old school shmup players would be used to hanging back and bombing....people who play more modern cave type stuff are aware of the finer points of these games and would approach it differently

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I'm as old school of a shmup player as they come and believe me, I don't hang back and bomb. 100% aggression in every game

PS - Tonk needs some Dragon Blaze and Raiden Fighters Jet.

twalden said:

I'm as old school of a shmup player as they come and believe me, I don't hang back and bomb. 100% aggression in every game

PS - Tonk needs some Dragon Blaze and Raiden Fighters Jet.

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dammit...how can i make a point if you wont be stereotyped

fine....everybody other than twalden hangs back and bombs.....

I know what you mean though. If had a few people my age and older over at the house that try and play Galuda or any other newer game like it was Galaga. It's pretty funny.