KOF - un'affollata canalizzazione del potere angelico
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Rengoku
Duck King's DJ
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io penso che per evitare lo spam inutile nei thread che vorremmo restassero salvi bastarebbe iniziare nn rispondendo ai teneri abboccando alle loro terribili trappole ed essere trascinati in un turbine di tenerezza
avevo chiesto a bobak se ci dava un altro moderatore che aiutasse a tenere puliti i threads ma se ne è fottuto
dio quanto vorrei giga cancellare la merda inutile dai threads
avevo chiesto a bobak se ci dava un altro moderatore che aiutasse a tenere puliti i threads ma se ne è fottuto
dio quanto vorrei giga cancellare la merda inutile dai threads
Rengoku
Duck King's DJ
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- 1,885
diciamo che sono in fissa con le frame data / lists
ovviamente di certo nn mi metto a studiare colpo per colpo i numeri ma credo che un'infarinatura generale sia utile specie per quelli che girano per i vari forums stranieri e incontrano diciture strane che altrimenti nn saprebbero decifrare
credit to: Campbell "Buktooth" Tran
Preface
The use of frame data in guides has been an increasing trend in fighting games as of late. A guide with complete frame data listings can be an incredibly convenient tool to the experienced gamer, as they can tell at a glance what or what isn't possible: possible link combos, which moves are punishable after blocking them, and even formulate strategies around exploiting a move's frame advantage/disadvantage.
Disturbingly, there is also an equally increasing trend of gamers misreading the information given to them in these guides. This often causes them to come to false conclusions, which they spread to the general fighting game public. In turn, the public takes this new "information" and promptly starts forming strategies around inaccurate assumptions, resulting in tactics that don't even work.
To help prevent such misuse of information (and also because I'm getting increasingly tired of answering mundane frame data questions on AIM and on forums), I've whipped together a quick little guide on the basics of frame data.
An important point to remember: This guide is NOT game-specific. The information and even general strategies contained within on using frame data applies to pretty much every major fighting game I can think of. However, since I happen to specialize in CvS2, most of my examples will be from that particular game. I did try to throw in an odd reference to a different game here and there, though.
What is a Frame?
A frame is a unit of time that is used in video games, among other things. Most modern fighting games run at 60 frames a second. If you do the math, then 1 frame is the same as 1/60th of a second.
A good guide will break down almost everything possible in a fighting game into quantifyable frame data that you can use. However, the bulk of most any guide that contains frame data will be dedicated to one thing: attacks.
Attacks
An attack is divided up into 3 portions, which I call start-up, impact and recovery.
Start-Up: Also known as "EX" or "execution". How long it takes the move to reach the first "Impact" frame (description below). A move with a start-up time of 10 frames will never hit before the 10th frame. Less start-up time is generally better, since less start-up time means a faster move. Faster generally means more priority as long as the move makes contact with the opponent's body. Put CvS2's Kyosuke right next to the lovable Sagat, have Kyosuke do a low short, and at the exact same time have Sagat do a low fierce. Kyosuke's low short executes in 3 frames, Sagat's dreaded low fierce executes in 7. Kyosuke wins every single time, guaranteed, as Sagat never even gets the chance to fully stick his fist out.
Active Frames: Also known as "AC". How long the move has an active hitbox for. In other words, how meaty the move can be. Don't know what meaty means? As an exaggerated example, CvS2's Bison can knock you down, then do a low roundhouse slide really early over the opponent's body. When the opponent gets up, they still have to block the tail end of the slide because its active frame window is tremendously long. An important thing to remember is that whatever active time is remaining after the move makes contact with the opponent is instantly converted to recovery time for single-hit moves. To use Bison's slide as another example: the slide has an active time of 35 frames. If Bison were to slide right next to a blocking opponent he would hit on the first possible active frame. Since the slide is a single hit move and that one hit is now used up, the remaining 34 active frames of the slide get converted into recovery time in addition to the normal recovery time of the move.
Recovery: Also known as "RE". Once the active portion of the move is over, how long the move takes to put you back into a neutral state where you're able to move again. The recovery time of the move, if you will. Remember, once the move makes contact with the opponent, whatever impact time is remaining gets added to the recovery time. Recovery time by itself is generally a meaningless number unless the move is whiffed. You could have a million recovery frames, but if the move gives a +10 frame advantage, you'll still recover 10 frames before your opponent. If you whiff the move entirely, however, your opponent now has a full million frames to punish you.
To put it all together, let's take Bison's jab Psycho Crusher as an example. The point where Bison crouches a little and chambers his hand before flying out is his start-up time. The whole portion of the move where he's spinning and on fire are the active frames. The portion where he's coming down and lands on the ground is the recovery time.
Frame Advantage/Disadvantage
Frame advantage is the amount of frames you recover before your opponent after making them block/get hit by a move. If you make your opponent block a move that has a +5 frame advantage, you recover from your move 5 frames before your opponent gets out of guard stun. "Link" combos can be figured out simply by finding a move with frame advantage, then finding another move with a shorter execution time than the frame advantage. For example, CvS2's Chun Li has a low jab which gives +6 on hit or block. Her low strong has an execution time of 4 frames, 2 frames less than the 6 frame advantage. From this, we can surmise that Chun's low strong can hit the opponent 2 frames before the opponent recovers from the hit stun of the initial low jab, making a possible link combo with a 2 frame window of error, frequently referred to as a "two frame link". There are a huge number of other things you can do with the ability to move before your opponent (hence, frame ADVANTAGE), but that goes beyond the scope of this guide.
Frame disadvantage is, you guessed it, how many frames you recover AFTER your opponent after making them block a move. A small frame disadvantage simply gives your opponent initiative on the next move. A large enough frame disadvantage makes the move unsafe. How large the frame disadvantage needs to be to make the move unsafe varies from game to game. In CvS2, moves that give -3 are usually punishable by jabs and certain uppercuts if the opponent is close enough. In 3S, a meager -2 is enough for Ken to super you, -3 is enough for Chun Li to super you. Namco games usually need around -9~11 to make a move unsafe, and so on.
Something to remember, frame advantage/disadvantage is always calculated assuming a move hit on its first frame active time. While that is indeed the case the vast majority of the time, meaty moves affect frame advantage/disadvantage in the attacker's favor. To use Bison's slide as an example again:
Bison's slide executes in 6 frames, has a whopping 35 AC, or "active frames", and has 18 frames of recovery. The frame disadvantage is at -29. Ouch. Of course, this is assuming Bison hits with the very first active frame of the slide. What if he hits with the LAST frame of the slide? This would cut off a sizable 34 frames of recovery on the move. The -29 frame disadvantage would get +34 added to it, bringing Bison to a +5 frame ADVANTAGE. Of course, the timing to get Bison's slide to hit consistently at the last frame of impact is inhumanly difficult, so not many even attempt to try it in a real match.
Certain games have a number of frame advantage/disadvantage modifiers: conditions that affect the frame advantage/disadvantage of a move (usually in a positive way). Most games have a positive modifier for counter hits, the Street Fighter 3 series and the Virtua Fighter series have positive modifiers for moves that hit while the opponent is crouching. Some even have different modifiers for "minor" and "major" counter hits. The end result of the frame advantage/disadvantage after the modifier should be listed in a seperate category of the game's respective guide, or at least a formula for you to follow to figure it out yourself. You should always keep these modifiers in mind when looking over your frame data, though, since they'll often open up lots of opportunities for guaranteed link combos not possible otherwise.
What to do with your Frame Data
The obvious things:
- Find possible link combos
- Find possible link combos involving a frame advantage modifier
(counter hit combos, crouching character combos, etc.)
- Create attack patterns with a few holes as possible
- Formulate counter hit/throw set ups
- Create true 50/50 mix ups
- Find ways to cover up a frame disadvantaged move
...possibly a more in-depth write-up coming soon. A lot of ways to exploit frame advantage/disadvantage overlaps with basic footsie concepts in 2D fighters, and that might possibly deserve a guide in itself. In 3D fighters, it should be fairly self explanatory how you can use frame advantage/disadvantage to your umm... advantage.
What not to do with your Frame Data
The basic cardinal rule of using frame data is NOT TO LET THE FRAME DATA DO ALL THE THINKING FOR YOU. I can't stress this enough. I've seen discussions for both 2D and 3D fighters where some people would say: "Don't ever use [insert move here]. It's got [insert slow execution time or frame disadvantage here]." I've seen people even go as far as to criticize the usefulness of a move because it carried a -1 frame disadvantage. MINUS FREAKIN ONE.
A move is much more than the sum of its numbers. Sometimes its uses are clearly evident, such as having long range or moving your body forward (Ryu's hop kick in CvS2). More often than not, a move has to experimented with extensively to determine its true potential. Maybe it beats a really problematic move cleanly. Maybe it has really funky hitboxes that you can use to your advantage. Maybe it's an ideal set up for something else. This holds true more often in 3D fighters than their 2D brethren, but still is applicable to most any fighting game. Did you know that in CvS2 Rugal's low strong not only works great as an anti-air against most characters, but as an anti-cross up also? Did you know that Julia and Michelle from Tekken can use their incredibly slow uf+3+4 jumping stomp to cross up opponents?
Guides with frame data are supposed to encourage creativity, not stifle it.
ovviamente di certo nn mi metto a studiare colpo per colpo i numeri ma credo che un'infarinatura generale sia utile specie per quelli che girano per i vari forums stranieri e incontrano diciture strane che altrimenti nn saprebbero decifrare
credit to: Campbell "Buktooth" Tran
Preface
The use of frame data in guides has been an increasing trend in fighting games as of late. A guide with complete frame data listings can be an incredibly convenient tool to the experienced gamer, as they can tell at a glance what or what isn't possible: possible link combos, which moves are punishable after blocking them, and even formulate strategies around exploiting a move's frame advantage/disadvantage.
Disturbingly, there is also an equally increasing trend of gamers misreading the information given to them in these guides. This often causes them to come to false conclusions, which they spread to the general fighting game public. In turn, the public takes this new "information" and promptly starts forming strategies around inaccurate assumptions, resulting in tactics that don't even work.
To help prevent such misuse of information (and also because I'm getting increasingly tired of answering mundane frame data questions on AIM and on forums), I've whipped together a quick little guide on the basics of frame data.
An important point to remember: This guide is NOT game-specific. The information and even general strategies contained within on using frame data applies to pretty much every major fighting game I can think of. However, since I happen to specialize in CvS2, most of my examples will be from that particular game. I did try to throw in an odd reference to a different game here and there, though.
What is a Frame?
A frame is a unit of time that is used in video games, among other things. Most modern fighting games run at 60 frames a second. If you do the math, then 1 frame is the same as 1/60th of a second.
A good guide will break down almost everything possible in a fighting game into quantifyable frame data that you can use. However, the bulk of most any guide that contains frame data will be dedicated to one thing: attacks.
Attacks
An attack is divided up into 3 portions, which I call start-up, impact and recovery.
Start-Up: Also known as "EX" or "execution". How long it takes the move to reach the first "Impact" frame (description below). A move with a start-up time of 10 frames will never hit before the 10th frame. Less start-up time is generally better, since less start-up time means a faster move. Faster generally means more priority as long as the move makes contact with the opponent's body. Put CvS2's Kyosuke right next to the lovable Sagat, have Kyosuke do a low short, and at the exact same time have Sagat do a low fierce. Kyosuke's low short executes in 3 frames, Sagat's dreaded low fierce executes in 7. Kyosuke wins every single time, guaranteed, as Sagat never even gets the chance to fully stick his fist out.
Active Frames: Also known as "AC". How long the move has an active hitbox for. In other words, how meaty the move can be. Don't know what meaty means? As an exaggerated example, CvS2's Bison can knock you down, then do a low roundhouse slide really early over the opponent's body. When the opponent gets up, they still have to block the tail end of the slide because its active frame window is tremendously long. An important thing to remember is that whatever active time is remaining after the move makes contact with the opponent is instantly converted to recovery time for single-hit moves. To use Bison's slide as another example: the slide has an active time of 35 frames. If Bison were to slide right next to a blocking opponent he would hit on the first possible active frame. Since the slide is a single hit move and that one hit is now used up, the remaining 34 active frames of the slide get converted into recovery time in addition to the normal recovery time of the move.
Recovery: Also known as "RE". Once the active portion of the move is over, how long the move takes to put you back into a neutral state where you're able to move again. The recovery time of the move, if you will. Remember, once the move makes contact with the opponent, whatever impact time is remaining gets added to the recovery time. Recovery time by itself is generally a meaningless number unless the move is whiffed. You could have a million recovery frames, but if the move gives a +10 frame advantage, you'll still recover 10 frames before your opponent. If you whiff the move entirely, however, your opponent now has a full million frames to punish you.
To put it all together, let's take Bison's jab Psycho Crusher as an example. The point where Bison crouches a little and chambers his hand before flying out is his start-up time. The whole portion of the move where he's spinning and on fire are the active frames. The portion where he's coming down and lands on the ground is the recovery time.
Frame Advantage/Disadvantage
Frame advantage is the amount of frames you recover before your opponent after making them block/get hit by a move. If you make your opponent block a move that has a +5 frame advantage, you recover from your move 5 frames before your opponent gets out of guard stun. "Link" combos can be figured out simply by finding a move with frame advantage, then finding another move with a shorter execution time than the frame advantage. For example, CvS2's Chun Li has a low jab which gives +6 on hit or block. Her low strong has an execution time of 4 frames, 2 frames less than the 6 frame advantage. From this, we can surmise that Chun's low strong can hit the opponent 2 frames before the opponent recovers from the hit stun of the initial low jab, making a possible link combo with a 2 frame window of error, frequently referred to as a "two frame link". There are a huge number of other things you can do with the ability to move before your opponent (hence, frame ADVANTAGE), but that goes beyond the scope of this guide.
Frame disadvantage is, you guessed it, how many frames you recover AFTER your opponent after making them block a move. A small frame disadvantage simply gives your opponent initiative on the next move. A large enough frame disadvantage makes the move unsafe. How large the frame disadvantage needs to be to make the move unsafe varies from game to game. In CvS2, moves that give -3 are usually punishable by jabs and certain uppercuts if the opponent is close enough. In 3S, a meager -2 is enough for Ken to super you, -3 is enough for Chun Li to super you. Namco games usually need around -9~11 to make a move unsafe, and so on.
Something to remember, frame advantage/disadvantage is always calculated assuming a move hit on its first frame active time. While that is indeed the case the vast majority of the time, meaty moves affect frame advantage/disadvantage in the attacker's favor. To use Bison's slide as an example again:
Bison's slide executes in 6 frames, has a whopping 35 AC, or "active frames", and has 18 frames of recovery. The frame disadvantage is at -29. Ouch. Of course, this is assuming Bison hits with the very first active frame of the slide. What if he hits with the LAST frame of the slide? This would cut off a sizable 34 frames of recovery on the move. The -29 frame disadvantage would get +34 added to it, bringing Bison to a +5 frame ADVANTAGE. Of course, the timing to get Bison's slide to hit consistently at the last frame of impact is inhumanly difficult, so not many even attempt to try it in a real match.
Certain games have a number of frame advantage/disadvantage modifiers: conditions that affect the frame advantage/disadvantage of a move (usually in a positive way). Most games have a positive modifier for counter hits, the Street Fighter 3 series and the Virtua Fighter series have positive modifiers for moves that hit while the opponent is crouching. Some even have different modifiers for "minor" and "major" counter hits. The end result of the frame advantage/disadvantage after the modifier should be listed in a seperate category of the game's respective guide, or at least a formula for you to follow to figure it out yourself. You should always keep these modifiers in mind when looking over your frame data, though, since they'll often open up lots of opportunities for guaranteed link combos not possible otherwise.
What to do with your Frame Data
The obvious things:
- Find possible link combos
- Find possible link combos involving a frame advantage modifier
(counter hit combos, crouching character combos, etc.)
- Create attack patterns with a few holes as possible
- Formulate counter hit/throw set ups
- Create true 50/50 mix ups
- Find ways to cover up a frame disadvantaged move
...possibly a more in-depth write-up coming soon. A lot of ways to exploit frame advantage/disadvantage overlaps with basic footsie concepts in 2D fighters, and that might possibly deserve a guide in itself. In 3D fighters, it should be fairly self explanatory how you can use frame advantage/disadvantage to your umm... advantage.
What not to do with your Frame Data
The basic cardinal rule of using frame data is NOT TO LET THE FRAME DATA DO ALL THE THINKING FOR YOU. I can't stress this enough. I've seen discussions for both 2D and 3D fighters where some people would say: "Don't ever use [insert move here]. It's got [insert slow execution time or frame disadvantage here]." I've seen people even go as far as to criticize the usefulness of a move because it carried a -1 frame disadvantage. MINUS FREAKIN ONE.
A move is much more than the sum of its numbers. Sometimes its uses are clearly evident, such as having long range or moving your body forward (Ryu's hop kick in CvS2). More often than not, a move has to experimented with extensively to determine its true potential. Maybe it beats a really problematic move cleanly. Maybe it has really funky hitboxes that you can use to your advantage. Maybe it's an ideal set up for something else. This holds true more often in 3D fighters than their 2D brethren, but still is applicable to most any fighting game. Did you know that in CvS2 Rugal's low strong not only works great as an anti-air against most characters, but as an anti-cross up also? Did you know that Julia and Michelle from Tekken can use their incredibly slow uf+3+4 jumping stomp to cross up opponents?
Guides with frame data are supposed to encourage creativity, not stifle it.
Rengoku
Duck King's DJ
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per esempio girando su srk.com potreste imbattervi in discussioni tipo:
Standing:
lp - The far version is good as an anti-air, the close version can be use in c.lk>s.lp>lp shoryu/throw. Can be special/super canceled. Can be ducked. safe on block.
far:
6/2/4 H+L
+4/+4/+4 o/o/o
close:
4/2/5 H+L
+3/+3/+3 x/o/o
che cazzo sono ste diciture?
un certo toodles mi ha detto stamani
6/2/4
startup/hitting/recovery
H+L
Can be blocked standing or crouching
+4/+4/+4
Frame advantage (one is hit, one is block, dunno the other)
o/o/o
selfcancel(rapid fire)/special cancel/super cancel - x is yes, o is no
abbastanza chiaro mi pare
Standing:
lp - The far version is good as an anti-air, the close version can be use in c.lk>s.lp>lp shoryu/throw. Can be special/super canceled. Can be ducked. safe on block.
far:
6/2/4 H+L
+4/+4/+4 o/o/o
close:
4/2/5 H+L
+3/+3/+3 x/o/o
che cazzo sono ste diciture?
un certo toodles mi ha detto stamani
6/2/4
startup/hitting/recovery
H+L
Can be blocked standing or crouching
+4/+4/+4
Frame advantage (one is hit, one is block, dunno the other)
o/o/o
selfcancel(rapid fire)/special cancel/super cancel - x is yes, o is no
abbastanza chiaro mi pare
Fugo
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tutte queste cose (e anche altre) sui frames le ho spiegate io (e in italiano :P) in passato... sicuramente su 2d-italia in maniera iperdettagliata, e in maniera più superficiale pure su emuita...
comunque la guida di Buktooth è buona, anche se magari sotto "What to do with your Frame Data" poteva inserire un bel "find what moves are punishable and by what" che permette alle frame list di far risparmiare ore e ore di test a provare manualmente cosa è punibile e con cosa.
comunque la guida di Buktooth è buona, anche se magari sotto "What to do with your Frame Data" poteva inserire un bel "find what moves are punishable and by what" che permette alle frame list di far risparmiare ore e ore di test a provare manualmente cosa è punibile e con cosa.
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Rengoku
Duck King's DJ
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si ma su 2d ita nn so quanti hanno visto/compreso/fatto tesoro di queste tue spiegazioni
potrei mettermi a spiegare/tradurre anche tante altre cose ma prima vorrei vedere un certo interesse (per kof poi manco ci spero)
conta che sta guida è pure abbastanza vecchiotta e ovviamente nn è messa li per imboccarti sul cosa fare con la frame chart
più che altro aiuta a capire a cosa ti può servire
btw se mi linki i tuoi posts sull'argomento sarei più che felice di leggerli ed evitare che restino ignorati
potrei mettermi a spiegare/tradurre anche tante altre cose ma prima vorrei vedere un certo interesse (per kof poi manco ci spero)
conta che sta guida è pure abbastanza vecchiotta e ovviamente nn è messa li per imboccarti sul cosa fare con la frame chart
più che altro aiuta a capire a cosa ti può servire
btw se mi linki i tuoi posts sull'argomento sarei più che felice di leggerli ed evitare che restino ignorati
Rengoku
Duck King's DJ
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oh, ma quanto sono tosti i giapponesi?
il prossimo che mi dice che quelli in burundi sono più forti potenzialmente dei geni gli sputo in un occhio
sotto ogni personaggio c'è una scheda che analizza le strategie da applicare contro:
anti billy --> http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl....co.jp/02billy-crush.htm&prev=/language_tools
anti max2 di choi (cercando di counterare e nn evitare rotolando) --> http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl...jp/02choi-crush-max2.htm&prev=/language_tools
anti choi in generale --> http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl...k.co.jp/02choi-crush.htm&prev=/language_tools
anti kula --> http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl...k.co.jp/02kula-crush.htm&prev=/language_tools
anti athena --> http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl...co.jp/02athena-crush.htm&prev=/language_tools
tosti da dio
il prossimo che mi dice che quelli in burundi sono più forti potenzialmente dei geni gli sputo in un occhio
sotto ogni personaggio c'è una scheda che analizza le strategie da applicare contro:
anti billy --> http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl....co.jp/02billy-crush.htm&prev=/language_tools
anti max2 di choi (cercando di counterare e nn evitare rotolando) --> http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl...jp/02choi-crush-max2.htm&prev=/language_tools
anti choi in generale --> http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl...k.co.jp/02choi-crush.htm&prev=/language_tools
anti kula --> http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl...k.co.jp/02kula-crush.htm&prev=/language_tools
anti athena --> http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl...co.jp/02athena-crush.htm&prev=/language_tools
tosti da dio
Last edited:
Fugo
Pao Pao Cafe Waiter
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Rengoku said:
il discorso l'ho introdotto qui
http://2d-italia.moetaro.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?313
poi ho approfondito altre cose ma nei thread specifici del 3rd ed è in mezzo ad altra roba, ci sarebbe da diggare. Magari quando ne avrò voglia metterò tutto insieme.
Rengoku
Duck King's DJ
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letto, ma nn mi pare troppo distante dalla guida di sopra..magari negli altri posts hai messo di più / meglio
vabbè tanto penso che saranno stati skippati quasi da tutti
più che altro ora come ora mi interessa capire la dicitura lame americana
6/2/4
startup/hitting/recovery
H+L
Can be blocked standing or crouching
+4/+4/+4
Frame advantage (one is hit, one is block, dunno the other)
o/o/o
selfcancel(rapid fire)/special cancel/super cancel - x is yes, o is no
in particolare quel terzo +4
o se tipo c'è altro da sapere 'di base'
vabbè tanto penso che saranno stati skippati quasi da tutti
più che altro ora come ora mi interessa capire la dicitura lame americana
6/2/4
startup/hitting/recovery
H+L
Can be blocked standing or crouching
+4/+4/+4
Frame advantage (one is hit, one is block, dunno the other)
o/o/o
selfcancel(rapid fire)/special cancel/super cancel - x is yes, o is no
in particolare quel terzo +4
o se tipo c'è altro da sapere 'di base'
Fugo
Pao Pao Cafe Waiter
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Rengoku said:
bisogna vedere da che gioco sono presi quei dati
se son presi dal 3rd strike il primo è on block, il secondo on hit e il terzo numero rappresenta il vantaggio su avversario colpito da accucciato, che per molte mosse è diverso dagli altri (è proprio per questo che ci sono combo che funzionano solo vs pg accucciati) su giochi che non hanno diferenze del genere non ci sarà un terzo numero.
su giochi che hanno un sistema di counterhit magari il terzo numero si riferisce a quello
In ogni caso quelle convenzioni sono giapponesi, gli americani hanno solo tradotto.
comunque in generale son quelle le cose da leggere in una framelist, poi il resto dipende dal singolo gioco e non è generico, semmai
le migliori listano insieme anche danno e stun inflitto, proprietà di juggle, proprietà particolari della mossa
Fugo
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Rengoku said:
le chains in genere sono preprogrammate in modo da funzionare a prescindere ignorando proprio il fattore hitstun che darebbero le singole mosse (fondamentalmente una chain è una sequenza precisa di mosse che si cancella l'una nell'altra). Nelle framelist del 3rd in genere le chain sono proprio elencate a parte, con i frame della chain nel suo complesso, ma magari son cose che variano a seconda del gioco. Con i vantaggi on hit delle mosse singole vedi cosa può linkare e niente altro, ovviamente anche due colpi normali fra di loro (ad esempio, stand MP, stand LK di Yun nel 3rd strike non è una chain ma un link)
io in verità sta fissa con la roba dei frames e palle varie nei picchiaduro 2d
beh,sinceramente non l'ho mai capita
che poi,volendo,neanche nei 3d
uno prova una mossa,vede se gliela puniscono / è punibile
che bisogno c'è di studiarsi milioni di tabellozze ?
ho bisogno di leggere dei dati per vedere che certi colpi di necrimmi stunnano più di altri ?
tirando un colpo tot volte mi accorgo se ha priorità alta o suca
back HP di chunnona al third è forte o dobbiamo aver letto la tabella ?
meeeeeow
beh,sinceramente non l'ho mai capita
che poi,volendo,neanche nei 3d
uno prova una mossa,vede se gliela puniscono / è punibile
che bisogno c'è di studiarsi milioni di tabellozze ?
ho bisogno di leggere dei dati per vedere che certi colpi di necrimmi stunnano più di altri ?
tirando un colpo tot volte mi accorgo se ha priorità alta o suca
back HP di chunnona al third è forte o dobbiamo aver letto la tabella ?
meeeeeow
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Fugo
Pao Pao Cafe Waiter
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2005
- Posts
- 1,799
è ovvio che la pratica fa il 95% della conoscenza del gioco
la framelist può aiutare a scoprire cose meno intuitive, però, del tipo "chi se lo sarebbe mai potuto immaginare"
scoprire che mossa X che mi da fastidio affrontare sembra ipersafe e in realtà non lo è
scoprire appunto i link (quelli più difficili col cazzo che li scopri per caso)
scoprire che in tale situazione la mossa X potrebbe essere insospettabilmente utile
scoprire che una cosa che si tentava di fare non funzionava non perché si sbagliava tempismo ma proprio non si può fare, e viceversa
ovvio che prima dei frames vengono tante altre cose, ma sono un utile complemento e aiutano a risolvere alcuni problemi più in fretta.
la framelist può aiutare a scoprire cose meno intuitive, però, del tipo "chi se lo sarebbe mai potuto immaginare"
scoprire che mossa X che mi da fastidio affrontare sembra ipersafe e in realtà non lo è
scoprire appunto i link (quelli più difficili col cazzo che li scopri per caso)
scoprire che in tale situazione la mossa X potrebbe essere insospettabilmente utile
scoprire che una cosa che si tentava di fare non funzionava non perché si sbagliava tempismo ma proprio non si può fare, e viceversa
ovvio che prima dei frames vengono tante altre cose, ma sono un utile complemento e aiutano a risolvere alcuni problemi più in fretta.
Son Goten
Big Bang Pro Wrestler
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2003
- Posts
- 882
Rengoku said:
no no aspetta, innanzitutto il cancel voluto (almeno secondo me) è nel semplice standing / crouching D e non nella capriola (infatti funzionano senza "gabole" tutte le mosse con D), e poi comunque non è solo il qcb A cancellato nella capriola che ti fà ricaricare la barra, anzi, quello è una minima (seppur indispensabile) parte della "ricarica" che fà funzionare la combo.
il fatto è che tutti quegli standing / crouching C linkati sono fatti con quel metodo, e non tramite le feint. tipo
standing C xx qcbA (hold), CD (che risulta in un altro standing C) ecc.
appena posso posto la trascrizione dell'intera combo nell'altro thread come chiede Fran.
in casa non prende come ve lo devo dire
però è anche vero che a volte me ne fotto e lo tengo spento per giorni :P ritentate, sarete più fortunati 
welcome to FETTOZZA park ( aka lupa park )
ma bella il misters
oh se ci sono cose tecnicone / difficili
song = numero fottutamente uno
rockstarissimo
magari ogni tanto puoi anche richiamare indietro,orsù
lo fà persino leva ogni tanto,puoi farlo anche tu
Son Goten said:
ma bella il misters
oh se ci sono cose tecnicone / difficili
song = numero fottutamente uno
in casa non prende come ve lo devo dire
rockstarissimo
magari ogni tanto puoi anche richiamare indietro,orsù
lo fà persino leva ogni tanto,puoi farlo anche tu
Rengoku
Duck King's DJ
- Joined
- May 20, 2005
- Posts
- 1,885
Fran said:
capo ti stanno spuntando tot operazioni al cervello e un discreto badile in mano più un'amicizia riscoperta con un sordo
io credo che un conto sia saperla a priori una cosa un altro andare li e mossa per mossa, occasione per occasione vedere come reagire/punire
poi ovvio che le cose più ovvie nn richiedono una frame list
ma per dire così, il calcio forte di joe al 2002 tirato da lontano punisce TUTTO
sta cosa mica è così scontata se consideri che animazione ha quel colpo
così come il fatto che crB si linka a cikkyo
io nn penso che qualcuno l'abbia solo provata all'infinito
stessa cosa per crC fwdA a combo con un secondo crC fwdA di billy
sempre considerando le animazioni che nn sono così di aiuto
ovvio anche che tante cose escono quando il gruppo di smazzo è ampio
per dire grazie al cazzo che i giappi le inventano loro le cose
saranno in migliaia a giocare e ad osservare / migliorare di conseguenza hanno una crescità di abilità non paragonabile a quella dell'extraball
nn vorrei dire na cazzata ma mi pare che nei 3d le frame list siano quasi obbligatorie visto che le animazioni tridimensionali parlano meno chiaro di quanto facciano quelle 2d
così mi pare di aver letto tempo fa..questo spiegherebbe xchè di default iniziare tekken richiede lo studio di sta merda
Fran said:però bella il mister che scarica i tornei marocchini al 2k2 e dice che i mexxi gliele ficcano ai GIAPPI
beh, se consideri le loro condizioni bisogna cmq riconoscere la loro abilità
ovvio e mai detto il contrario chei giappi le ficcano a tutto il mondo (la cina dicono sia in mutande quest'anno per ficcargliele al tougeki) sia per conoscenza sia per abilità
cmq a pelle così se devo preferire uno stile preferisco quello messicano, molto più spettacolare sicuramente di quello pacato e studiato dei giappi
e di sicuro secondo me possono fare bene (che è diverso da ficcarle) contro di loro
Fugo said:
tornando al discorso di sopra,
digerire qualcosa già masticato da altri è cosa molto buona e giusta e ti fa risparmiare sui tempi
per dire con un esempio sciocco
se un oggetto cade nn devi star li a immaginare se arriverà a terra, lo sai e basta xchè qualcuno ha analizzato / capito la cosa prima di te e l'ha trasmessa
stessa cosa per le punizioni al 98
nn è che stai ancora li a studiare se e come la contachilometri punisce, appena vedi quello che sai che punisce la fai e bon
) non puo che non tangermi minimamente . . . chissà come sarebbe avere te come mod . . . 
rengoku ladro finiscila che usi le espressioni di fran e dopo il ficcaggio verdone hai smesso di giocare a kof
ps : a roncaro te le ho ficcate
no ma alla fine a roma io ancora non ho capito se al 2k2 me le hai ficcate o te le ho ficcate ?
è anche vero che avevo il culo che i miei personaggi erano puttani e con leona non potevi mafiare :\
ps : a roncaro te le ho ficcate
no ma alla fine a roma io ancora non ho capito se al 2k2 me le hai ficcate o te le ho ficcate ?
è anche vero che avevo il culo che i miei personaggi erano puttani e con leona non potevi mafiare :\