The Comic Book Thread

The idea of "fixing" is completely subjective. Did Johns help make Gardner more interesting than he had been for years? Yeah, okay, although I'd attribute at least some of that to the GLC writers from Gibbons on, as well. But the word "fixing" implies he was returned to a state he used to inhabit, and I wouldn't really say that at all. His current base personality is pretty new.

These characters get changed. Something doesn't play as well as it used to, and the writers & editors come up with a change they think modern fans will connect with. If fans dig the change, it's often called "fixing." If fans reject the change, they call it "ruining." But the terms are misleading. It's the same thing; it's only fan reaction that makes them different.

Sometimes a character actually does get put back in a classic state, but that's relatively rare, and is usually accompanied by a bunch of fan whining about how things are going backwards, a return to the Silver Age, fanwank, or whatever else.

Anyone here read Northlanders?

Taiso said:

There are more thought provoking and better ways to 'put him in his place.' And anyway, there is no fucking way Hal Jordan just straight up lands a punch on Bats. Not even a Bats that was acting all maniacal and out of character but was still Bats. It's a shitty scene and has no business being written by a supposedly great writer.

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See, I don't subscribe to the idea that Batman can never ever be surprised, or outmaneuvered. Bruce was a bit surprised to have Hal punch him. So he got punched. If you really want to get technical, Batman is nowhere near the top of the heap in the DC world when it comes to hand-to-hand fighting, so the idea that no one could land a punch on him is silly. If it was, say, Judomaster we were talking about, fine. Heck, I'd even give you Ted Grant (though he gets punched all the time too), but Batman gets punched.

Besides. This is a superhero comic book we're talking about. Getting punched in the face is one of the key ways to do a story. I'm surprised everyone is so bent out of shape about it. I don't remember hearing people complain when Batman fought Superman in the Loeb Hush story. I know Superman was being mind controlled, but still. Heroes fight all the time... It's nothing new.

Taiso said:

And anyway, there was enough carthasis in there for Hal fans in seeing him redeem himself after the shitty Parralax storyline F'ed every Jordan fan in the A. Done and done.

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Hal was gone a long time, and a lot of GL fans were waiting for Hal to tell Batman to fuck off for years. It was fan service, pure and simple, and that's nothing anyone should be complaining about in a comic book. It was a GL title. It was for GL fans. If Hal sucker punched Batman in a Batman comic, that'd be one thing. But he didn't.

Taiso said:

His tendency to shit on other characters to make someone look good has to go. Other than that, he's fine on team books.

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I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you give me a couple examples? I can't really think of anything, and I've read the bulk of Johns' stuff for the past 7 or 8 years.

Taiso said:

Acknowledging that there are better versions of the character pretty much validates the point that he can be used more effectively. It's important to be consistent with the character across all books, as that's something Marvel is TERRIBLE at. So if Stewart is 'angry black green lantern man' in one book, he should be that in all books. That is continuity.

But Johns is the guiding hand of all things GL. He fixed Gardner. He could fix Stewart, too. Easily.

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I don't know, man, it sounds like you're quibbling to me. Admittedly John Stewart has hardly been a key player in the Johns GL, but he was in total obscurity before. It's not fair to say Johns 'ruined' him when he was a) ruined before and b) not in comics for a while up until then anyway.

SouthtownKid said:

The idea of "fixing" is completely subjective. Did Johns help make Gardner more interesting than he had been for years? Yeah, okay, although I'd attribute at least some of that to the GLC writers from Gibbons on, as well. But the word "fixing" implies he was returned to a state he used to inhabit, and I wouldn't really say that at all. His current base personality is pretty new.

These characters get changed. Something doesn't play as well as it used to, and the writers & editors come up with a change they think modern fans will connect with. If fans dig the change, it's often called "fixing." If fans reject the change, they call it "ruining." But the terms are misleading. It's the same thing; it's only fan reaction that makes them different.

Sometimes a character actually does get put back in a classic state, but that's relatively rare, and is usually accompanied by a bunch of fan whining about how things are going backwards, a return to the Silver Age, fanwank, or whatever else.

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Excellent point. I'd add that comics are about adolescent fantasy when you get right down to it, and if a comic doesn't match your fantasy, you probably aren't going to like it. I'm easier to please in that sense than most, so I like (and read) a lot of comics. Just how I'm built I suppose.

Sexual Instinct said:

Anyone here read Northlanders?

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I've read the first five or six issues, and personally, I thought it was quite dull. Everyone else seemed to like it though.

Sexual Instinct said:

Anyone here read Northlanders?

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Starts out slow but picks up in later issues around #7 when Wood getting his bearings

Batman is nowhere near the top of the list of best DC martial artists? I dont think thats true. He may not be number one but hes pretty damn close.

HN:

I'm not going to continue to have this discussion. It's too much like a CBR forum thread when the conversation goes to the directions this is headed, where we start citing historical examples in comics and start arguing things like the usage of characters relative to the titles they appear in.

Suffice it to say I've stated my points, I think I'm right, I think you're wrong and that's just the way it goes down.

Not saying I'm irritated, just saying that I think Johns is overrated for all the reasons I've cited and this is an argument that will not end.

/done

Gardner being 'fixed':

I think Warrior sucked and Johns fixed him. Subjective or not, that's my stance. Nothing else to say about it.

Northlanders:

I read it and I love it.

Far better than anything Johns writes

Taiso said:

Gardner being 'fixed':

I think Warrior sucked and Johns fixed him. Subjective or not, that's my stance.

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And that's fine. But all it means is that it was a change you liked. It's not that Johns writes Guy the way he used to be written prior to the Warrior series you don't like. Far from it.

Unless you mean "fixed" in terms of powers only. In which case, eh, whatever.

Sexual Instinct said:

Batman is nowhere near the top of the list of best DC martial artists? I dont think thats true. He may not be number one but hes pretty damn close.

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Well, he'd be on the short list, but I don't think he'd make the top five. Characters like Black Canary are supposed to be a bit better. Batman's the top dog because of his sense of strategy and his abilities as a detective, which is something the other top fighters don't have.

Taiso said:

HN:

I'm not going to continue to have this discussion. It's too much like a CBR forum thread when the conversation goes to the directions this is headed, where we start citing historical examples in comics and start arguing things like the usage of characters relative to the titles they appear in.

Suffice it to say I've stated my points, I think I'm right, I think you're wrong and that's just the way it goes down.

Not saying I'm irritated, just saying that I think Johns is overrated for all the reasons I've cited and this is an argument that will not end.

/done

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If I've antagonized you, I apologize -- it wasn't my intention. I guess I forgot that for some reason, comics are really personal to most people, and it's hard to argue about 'em without ruffling some feathers (and I'm an old hand at feather ruffling anyway). I don't begrudge you your opinion, anyway. If you think Geoff Johns is overrated, that's fine with me. I personally enjoy the guy's work, and that's good enough for me.

Like I said, this is all fantasy. I've found that when you're talking about something that exists largely in your imagination, you're bound to get into some fights with people when your mental image doesn't line up with theirs and you decide to insist upon it.

All I'll add is this: in matters such as these, I don't think there is a 'right' or 'wrong,' as you put it. There's just opinion. Like it or not, Trey's opinion that Rob Liefeld is awesome and inspiring is just as valid as yours, my friend.

SouthtownKid said:

And that's fine. But all it means is that it was a change you liked. It's not that Johns writes Guy the way he used to be written prior to the Warrior series you don't like. Far from it.

Unless you mean "fixed" in terms of powers only. In which case, eh, whatever.

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Yeah, good point. Going back to what I was just saying, I'm sure there are some Warrior fans out there who were infuriated by the changes and hated every bit of them. Personally, I think they're out of their minds, but what are you gonna do.

HeartlessNinny said:

Well, he'd be on the short list, but I don't think he'd make the top five. Characters like Black Canary are supposed to be a bit better. Batman's the top dog because of his sense of strategy and his abilities as a detective, which is something the other top fighters don't have.

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Now we're really getting into adolescent territory, but nope. Batman is top 5... possibly top 3 And well above Black Canary. The top is Richard Dragon. Batman and Lady Shiva are both directly under him, both having trained under him and having trained together. Bronze Tiger, too, although I forget what happened to him. Cassandra Cain would have been at the top, too, before her brain got tampered with. Then you have guys like Sensei and I-Ching. Canary is way down the list compared to those characters. Even Connor Hawke might rank slightly ahead of her.

HeartlessNinny said:

If I've antagonized you, I apologize -- it wasn't my intention. I guess I forgot that for some reason, comics are really personal to most people, and it's hard to argue about 'em without ruffling some feathers (and I'm an old hand at feather ruffling anyway). I don't begrudge you your opinion, anyway. If you think Geoff Johns is overrated, that's fine with me. I personally enjoy the guy's work, and that's good enough for me.

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You haven't antagonized me in the least. I was basically saying our sides of the discussion are at the opposite ends of the spectrum and no matter how many facts we start spouting at each other about examples of Johns' work, it's not going to change anything, You're still going to like him and say he's great, I'm still going to call him hit or miss. I just didn't see the need to continue the discussion beyond explaining why I'm not going to comment on it.

HeartlessNinny said:

All I'll add is this: in matters such as these, I don't think there is a 'right' or 'wrong,' as you put it. There's just opinion. Like it or not, Trey's opinion that Rob Liefeld is awesome and inspiring is just as valid as yours, my friend.

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I erased eight different responses because nothing I could say to this would seem like I wasn't trying to pick a fight.

So never mind, I guess?

HeartlessNinny said:

All I'll add is this: in matters such as these, I don't think there is a 'right' or 'wrong,' as you put it. There's just opinion. Like it or not, Trey's opinion that Rob Liefeld is awesome and inspiring is just as valid as yours, my friend.

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Did someone say they wanna hop on the Liefeld Express!?!?!?! Get on the bus!

HeartlessNinny said:

I'm sure there are some Warrior fans out there who were infuriated by the changes and hated every bit of them. Personally, I think they're out of their minds, but what are you gonna do.

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I liked Warrior especially when Mitch Byrd was on pencils( damn fine comic book readings ), I knew change was coming once I saw the Rebirth preview but it didn't bother me as I'm just glad he doesn't have that damn bowl haircut. I did like Beau Smith's comment on the retcon, "It's dumb but it would be nice if DC would put some Warrior stuff in trade since I get asked that at every con I go to, who wouldn't mind some easy money?"

Anyone planning to pick up Frank Miller's Holy Terror? Might get it this weekend or wait a week

Trey Burnout said:

I liked Warrior especially when Mitch Byrd was on pencils( damn fine comic book readings ),

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Me, too, but their original concept was so short-lived. It lasted exactly 2 issues before it got wrecked by editorial edict.

The idea was that since Kyle was now supposed to be the only ring-bearer in the entire DCU ( ), everyone else had to lose theirs, even Guy the Sinestro ring he had. That was okay, I didn't like the yellow ring, and his costume was even worse.

So the idea from incoming writer Beau Smith (for those who didn't read it) would be for Guy to continue having adventures as a completely NON-POWERED guy globe-trotting and doing cool stuff. Editorial signed off and the first couple issues were really promising.




Obvious Doc Savage influence there with a real pulp vibe, which was very unique in mainstream comics at that time. Hidden civilizations, dinosaurs, guns, planes, etc. Great stuff. Smith has said in interview that the original intent was to continue on with that kind of stuff, which probably would have made it one of my favorite DC books of the decade.

But then editorial chickened out and decided that Guy DID have to have super-powers if he was going to keep his series. So they "revealed" he was an alien (again, ), gave him powers that made no sense and weren't interesting, and gave him a costume/look that somehow managed to be even worse than the original Warrior costume.

SouthtownKid said:

Me, too, but their original concept was so short-lived. It lasted exactly 2 issues before it got wrecked by editorial edict.

The idea was that since Kyle was now supposed to be the only ring-bearer in the entire DCU ( ), everyone else had to lose theirs, even Guy the Sinestro ring he had. That was okay, I didn't like the yellow ring, and his costume was even worse.

So the idea from incoming writer Beau Smith (for those who didn't read it) would be for Guy to continue having adventures as a completely NON-POWERED guy globe-trotting and doing cool stuff. Editorial signed off and the first couple issues were really promising.

Obvious Doc Savage influence there with a real pulp vibe, which was very unique in mainstream comics at that time. Hidden civilizations, dinosaurs, guns, planes, etc. Great stuff. Smith has said in interview that the original intent was to continue on with that kind of stuff, which probably would have made it one of my favorite DC books of the decade.

But then editorial chickened out and decided that Guy DID have to have super-powers if he was going to keep his series. So they "revealed" he was an alien (again, ), gave him powers that made no sense and weren't interesting, and gave him a costume/look that somehow managed to be even worse than the original Warrior costume.

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I had no idea that was the original idea, those first two issues were my fav of Beau's entire run on the book. Thanks for the info STK

SouthtownKid said:

Now we're really getting into adolescent territory, but nope. Batman is top 5... possibly top 3 And well above Black Canary. The top is Richard Dragon. Batman and Lady Shiva are both directly under him, both having trained under him and having trained together. Bronze Tiger, too, although I forget what happened to him. Cassandra Cain would have been at the top, too, before her brain got tampered with. Then you have guys like Sensei and I-Ching. Canary is way down the list compared to those characters. Even Connor Hawke might rank slightly ahead of her.

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Perhaps I've been misinformed? I was under the impression that Lady Shiva was better than Batman -- from everything I've heard and read, she's supposed to be the very best in the DCU. They've said as much in Batman comics somewhere in the last few years. I know Richard Dragon is up there. Cassandra might have had the top spot, until she went away (now, if we're gonna talk about a character that got ruined, let's start with her). There was never a decisive winner between her and Lady Shiva.

I've also been told that Black Canary was right up there. I think Gail Simone talked about that in Birds of Prey, too. I have to admit I'm surprised to hear you say that she's not supposed to be that good, and that Connor might be better. Connor? Really? I didn't know he could throw down like that.

Anyways, you're right about one thing: this is as adolescent as it gets. I suppose there aren't any real or 'official' answers to this debate (if that's what you want to call it). It depends on who you ask -- and when. DC is fond of fooling around with their continuity, after all. And now that the Wildstorm characters are back in there, who knows what's going on. Theoretically, Midnighter could beat the shit out of anyone we've talked about so far in a straight-up fist fight. Assuming he's the same as he was before (speaking of which, if they make him and Apollo straight, I will be highly upset).

Taiso said:

You haven't antagonized me in the least. I was basically saying our sides of the discussion are at the opposite ends of the spectrum and no matter how many facts we start spouting at each other about examples of Johns' work, it's not going to change anything, You're still going to like him and say he's great, I'm still going to call him hit or miss. I just didn't see the need to continue the discussion beyond explaining why I'm not going to comment on it.

I erased eight different responses because nothing I could say to this would seem like I wasn't trying to pick a fight.

So never mind, I guess?

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Ah, good, it seems we're on the same page after all then. I try not to take my opinion too seriously. After all, I was a total Bendis fanboy not five years ago.

I have to admit I'm curious what your responses were going to be though. Rest assured, I wouldn't have gone off on you, no matter what you said. If wasabi calling me a bigot in the War Room isn't going to get a rise out of me anymore, you sure aren't either.

Trey Burnout said:

Did someone say they wanna hop on the Liefeld Express!?!?!?! Get on the bus!

I liked Warrior especially when Mitch Byrd was on pencils( damn fine comic book readings ), I knew change was coming once I saw the Rebirth preview but it didn't bother me as I'm just glad he doesn't have that damn bowl haircut. I did like Beau Smith's comment on the retcon, "It's dumb but it would be nice if DC would put some Warrior stuff in trade since I get asked that at every con I go to, who wouldn't mind some easy money?"

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Ha ha, I'm never gonna be a Liefeld fan. Sorry man.

And you liked the Warrior stuff, huh? Even with the dodgy alien origin and all that? I guess I was right -- there is a fan for everything.

HeartlessNinny said:

Perhaps I've been misinformed? I was under the impression that Lady Shiva was better than Batman -- from everything I've heard and read, she's supposed to be the very best in the DCU. They've said as much in Batman comics somewhere in the last few years. I know Richard Dragon is up there. Cassandra might have had the top spot, until she went away (now, if we're gonna talk about a character that got ruined, let's start with her). There was never a decisive winner between her and Lady Shiva.

I've also been told that Black Canary was right up there. I think Gail Simone talked about that in Birds of Prey, too. I have to admit I'm surprised to hear you say that she's not supposed to be that good, and that Connor might be better. Connor? Really? I didn't know he could throw down like that.

Anyways, you're right about one thing: this is as adolescent as it gets. I suppose there aren't any real or 'official' answers to this debate (if that's what you want to call it). It depends on who you ask -- and when. DC is fond of fooling around with their continuity, after all. And now that the Wildstorm characters are back in there, who knows what's going on. Theoretically, Midnighter could beat the shit out of anyone we've talked about so far in a straight-up fist fight. Assuming he's the same as he was before (speaking of which, if they make him and Apollo straight, I will be highly upset).

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Midnighter's got powers anyway, so he's not a straight-up martial artist.

Yeah, I agree with you that Shiva is above Batman, although the way she's been written in recent years kind of muddies everything. Recent writers have jobbed her out to make their own favorite characters seem better. Richard Dragon (whose series her first appearance took place in) was her fellow student and is above her in terms of skill, but has long ago given up combat. That's why when she met Vic Sage and saw potential in him, she purposely crippled rather than killed him, and dropped him off with Richard Dragon for training.




To this day, easily one of the best books DC ever published.

HeartlessNinny said:

And you liked the Warrior stuff, huh? Even with the dodgy alien origin and all that? I guess I was right -- there is a fan for everything.

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Started off pulpy as STK pointed out but yeah even with the hamfisted alien origin( even back then it struck me as random ) but there was good stuff to be found. Plus the issue where Guy turns into a woman was comedic gold

SouthtownKid said:

Midnighter's got powers anyway, so he's not a straight-up martial artist.

Yeah, I agree with you that Shiva is above Batman, although the way she's been written in recent years kind of muddies everything. Recent writers have jobbed her out to make their own favorite characters seem better. Richard Dragon (whose series her first appearance took place in) was her fellow student and is above her in terms of skill, but has long ago given up combat. That's why when she met Vic Sage and saw potential in him, she purposely crippled rather than killed him, and dropped him off with Richard Dragon for training.

To this day, easily one of the best books DC ever published.

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Yeap, I keep a eye out at my shops bargain bin as I've found a lot of issues from Denys/Cowan's Question in there

You definitely have to read them in order from the beginning, though, because it's one long story and his character goes through one, very long arc.

SouthtownKid said:

You definitely have to read them in order from the beginning, though, because it's one long story and his character goes through one, very long arc.

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Indeed, I got the first two trades and the first one let me know it's going to be a long one. When I have teh chance I plan on getting the rest of the trades, as a huge fan of Cowan I'm just grabbing the singles just cause. Wish he'd do more work as the Capt. America/Black Panther book he did had some good moments but I felt he carried that book more then Hudlin did

Trey Burnout said:

Started off pulpy as STK pointed out but yeah even with the hamfisted alien origin( even back then it struck me as random ) but there was good stuff to be found. Plus the issue where Guy turns into a woman was comedic gold

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"Gal" Gardner was hilarious. I never really got into his Warrior series, just the old, pre-Guy Gardner Reborn stuff, and then I've been reading pretty much all the GL books from Rebirth up to current. I also looked in to the old Giffen/DeMatteis JLI stuff as a Guy fan, and fell in love all over again. Honestly, as much as I love Guy, I think he works best in a team book, like GLC and JLI. Kinda pissed that Emerald Warriors didn't last longer than it did, but I'll take getting him back in GLC/JLI over not getting him in anything any day.

SouthtownKid said:

Midnighter's got powers anyway, so he's not a straight-up martial artist.

Yeah, I agree with you that Shiva is above Batman, although the way she's been written in recent years kind of muddies everything. Recent writers have jobbed her out to make their own favorite characters seem better. Richard Dragon (whose series her first appearance took place in) was her fellow student and is above her in terms of skill, but has long ago given up combat. That's why when she met Vic Sage and saw potential in him, she purposely crippled rather than killed him, and dropped him off with Richard Dragon for training.

To this day, easily one of the best books DC ever published.

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Yeah, I suppose you've got me on a technicality, there -- Midnighter does have powers, doesn't he? Okay, forget that one.

Anyways, I'm with you about the Shiva thing. I hadn't realized she'd be jobbed out though. That sucks.

And yes. I had a feeling you'd mention the Question. And yes, it is fucking great. I totally agree that it's one of the best series DC ever published (though my personal favourites are still Starman and Hitman), and it should be read by everyone. I remember the Shiva and Dragon parts. Goddamn that was a great comic.

Goddammit. My friend's store got shorted on every copy of Aquaman, and got about 60 copies of the Batgirl reprint instead. Fucking Diamond.

In other news, I asked him if Black Canary was a top tier hand-to-hand fighter in the DCU, and he said no way, Jose. So....... STK was right. Move along, nothing more to see here....

(He did add that there's no way Connor would beat her though.)

HeartlessNinny said:

Goddammit. My friend's store got shorted on every copy of Aquaman, and got about 60 copies of the Batgirl reprint instead. Fucking Diamond.

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Yeah mine's shipment of Wonder Woman went missing and didn't turn up until friday, many people were pissed, worked out for me as I wouldn't have been able to try it out and like it( never thought I'd say that about Wonder Woman in comic form )