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Thread: The Big Scam (Part II)

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    icon21.gif The Big Scam (Part II)

    [EDITOR'S NOTE: The member known as Kyokugen Star sold, via eBay, a converted Metal Slug 1 cart (worth several hundred dollars) as an original cart (worth, and sold for, well over a thousand dollars). The buyer, understandibly peeved, posted his grievances on NG.com in this thread HERE (worth skimming for the details of what occured). As that thread turned into a multi-page epic of accusations and spam, BioMotor_Unitron formed a continuation here. (Note: due to some antics at a far later date, posts by Feelgood could be by either EvilWasabi (now known as Wasabi) or Feelgood --yup, there's a lot of backstories on these forums...).]

    The other Thread is getting too cluttered. If you wish to reference it, you can find it HERE.

    This Thread is to continue the original, except for a couple of small changes. This one is going to be for constructive Posts only, aimed at reuniting Laurent with his money. Random flaming, Thread crapping, etc., will be deleted.

    If you feel like slinging random mud, feel free to take it to the War Room.
    Last edited by aria; 11-04-2005 at 05:12 PM. Reason: Nominted by Takumaji
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    THE WORLD AS WE KNEW IT ENDED ON JANUARY 5, 2003 AT 7:53 A.M. EASTERN STANDARD TIME, WHEN DEATH, LONG CONSIDERED THE GREAT EQUALIZER OF MEN, BEGAN TO PLAY FAVOURITES.

    ON MARCH 31, 2007, AT 10:54 P.M. EASTERN STANDARD TIME, HE LET THEM KNOW WHO THEY WERE.

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    OK, lets try to speak like humans again.

    If that really happened to Bahamut, KS aka Ralph Karels should refund the money to him, or maybe heīs offering an solution, to solve that prob soon as possible IMO.

    Iīm sorry guys for beeing a bit rude, but nearly ALL of YOU blamed me for nothing.
    I just defended myself.
    Have YOU ever felt the spirit of a Neo?



    So long
    CrAEckY

    BTW: Free your mind, thatīs it!

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    Ok, I was talking with another very respected list member and he said it straight up - someone from Germany should step up and offer to get Ralph's contact info and the info of german police in his area so that they can help them reach a solution.

    PS - Chris-77 - take me off your ignore list. You PM me and then place me on ignore showing how afriad you are of discussing what happened in a civilized manner. Anyone who calls you a scammer can do so with confidence if that is how you deal with people. You should be suspended from the ng forums until Laurent gets back his money because honestly, you've only added to the fire and gave no solutions, and half-hearted yet mocking condolences (of course it was fake!).

    [ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: EvilWasabi ]</p>

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    [quote]Originally posted by EvilWasabi:
    <strong>Ok, I was talking with another very respected list member and he said it straight up - someone from Germany should step up and offer to get Ralph's contact info and the info of german police in his area so that they can help them reach a solution.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    I was thinking the same thing. This is a case of fraud now, is it not?
    -joseph

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    [quote]Originally posted by EvilWasabi:
    <strong>Ok, I was talking with another very respected list member and he said it straight up - someone from Germany should step up and offer to get Ralph's contact info and the info of german police in his area so that they can help them reach a solution.

    PS - Chris-77 - take me off your ignore list. You PM me and then place me on ignore showing how afriad you are of discussing what happened in a civilized manner. Anyone who calls you a scammer can do so with confidence if that is how you deal with people. You should be suspended from the ng forums until Laurent gets back his money because honestly, you've only added to the fire and gave no solutions, and half-hearted yet mocking condolences (of course it was fake!).

    [ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: EvilWasabi ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Exactlly EW, you hit the nail right on the head. He needs to take this matter to the authorities. If I lived in Germany I would be the first one to step up but he has other avenues as well. Maybe someone could get the phone numbers for him to the local Police? Prosecutor? I wish I was more familiar of how they handle things like this in Germany because sadly most of my experience in dealing with Fraud cases has been in the USA only.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Aphex
    If you bought a game from me I'd ride to your fucking house and force feed your wife at gunpoint a lunchbox full of shit.

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    Brandi posted this in the other thread, saying that if it came out that Chriz had nothing to do with this, he'd publicly apologize. I'm willing to do the same. But so far it doesn't look good for either Kyokugen or Chriz. Shill bidding among buddies is quite common. Those other threads about the converted Slug make this whole thing look hella shady. As for Kyokugen, I'm completely convinced.

    HIS SILENCE SPEAKS THE LOUDEST. If I knew I was guilty and had no intention of giving up the refund, I'd be quiet too.

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    Laurent this is the steps I advise everyone to use here in the USA, hopefully you can take what you need from this to help you take action.

    <a href="http://www.neo-geo.com/reviews/specialfeatures/efraudFAQ/internetfraudFAQ.htm" target="_blank">http://www.neo-geo.com/reviews/specialfeatures/efraudFAQ/internetfraudFAQ.htm</a>
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Aphex
    If you bought a game from me I'd ride to your fucking house and force feed your wife at gunpoint a lunchbox full of shit.

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    IF iT CAME OUT, THAT IīM NOT iNVOLVED...
    A LOT OF GUYS, WHOīVE BLAMMED ME FOR NOTHiNG SHOULD BE SEND TO THE "SUSPENDED LiST!!!"
    Thatīs my offer!!! What about it EvilWasabi and others, maybe youīll be ban then!!!
    BTW, youīre not longer on my "ignore list"...
    Have YOU ever felt the spirit of a Neo?



    So long
    CrAEckY

    BTW: Free your mind, thatīs it!

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    CHRISS ZZ machin bidule continue a m'insulter c'est malin
    The big PROBLEM is that you try to defend yourself but you defend your KS too!

    "If that really happened to Bahamut"
    why IF IF IF IF????????????????
    it's not "if" its "KS fucked LAurent"
    nothing more to say.

    also if you have nothing with that scam story (i think you're not unhonest , but maybe you tried just to help your friend, if he is one of your friends,
    Stop insult half of the board with free insults ok ?

    maybe you are a big boxer, you wanna fight, you have cousins in france blabla.
    fight is not considered like a solution in this problem.

    also try to change your violence in good thoughts.

    and try to admit that your behaviour in this story wasn't very ....clean.
    and in this story everybody in thses boards begin to believe nobody and see conspiracy...
    also sorry if you are not in the scam to accuse you but this don't change about KS situation.
    KS is guilty.

    and for the references of laurent.
    it's not his 20 posts who makes a reputation;
    Laurent know most of most important sellers and collectors in france.
    his reputation is not to do....
    .

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    Waku7

    Come on, donīt be blind!!!
    I was not here for JUST one fucking day, and youīve seen what happened to me.
    Some friends told me, that i better get movin to these Forums, course a lot of YOU guys started blamming me w/o any facts!!! Just check out the whole thread, thatīs the truth.
    Iīm not a violent guy, but WHO was the guy, who pulled KS and ME into dirt??? Why ME??? Course iīve bidden on that same CART??? REDiCOLOUS!!!
    Have YOU ever felt the spirit of a Neo?



    So long
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    BTW: Free your mind, thatīs it!

  11. #11
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    My take on this whole stupidity:

    Someone like Bobak with a greater understanding of law may find fault with my logic, but to the best of my understanding for "fraud" to occur basically all you have to do is prove...well..."fraudulent intent".

    So let's say I'm selling a Hong Kong Knock-Off of a Transformer. It looks exactly like a Green Optimus Prime and the box says "MegaFormers". If I purchased it for $20 in China town or online and I go to eBay and I try to sell it for $30 then that's not fraud. I'm intending to make more than I paid for it, but that doesn't change it's inherant value to someone who wants the goofy looking thing.

    Now if it looked EXACTLY the same and I tried to sell it for $500, then that is fraud. I'm intending to make more money on it by playing of the value of ANOTHER, more valuable yet similar looking item. The price alone should be an indicator that what I'm selling is authetic even if I never outright declare it is.

    If someone paid $220 for a conversion and the offers to sell it for an exponential sum of what they paid for it and that price is within the price range of what one would expect the authentic item to be...than there may be an intent to commit fraud by making the percieved value of that game higher than it has any right to be.

    I could be wrong on that but I think that's close.

    As far as this whole scenario is going:

    Hell, this may even be subject to the "Lemon Law" in the States. No commercial transaction is complete until 72 hours have elapsed. No matter what you buy or where you buy it if it doesn't meet the stated or implied conditions of that transaction, the transaction can be legally recinded. The seller gets his item back, the buyer gets his money back. Even if you go to a store that has "NO RETURNS", legally they have to let you if the product is faulty or doesn't work as implied. That's why you sometimes see "Sold AS IS" because then the stated condition is saying there may be something wrong with it, check it out first.

    This law was basically put into effect for used car dealerships. People would buy a car and then the next day it wouldn't start.

    This was a legal transaction but the implied condition of the game (in this case implied by the price, the starting price specifically) was not met. The buyer thought it was real, the seller, in this case Ralph's father, admitted he didn't know if it was real or not but agreed to refund the money if it wasn't. Him saying that means legally he was representing the game as authentic in an 'or else' case. "It's real, or else I'll refund your money". So both parties have agreed the cart is authentic, it was not, the transaction never took place, the buyer should get back his money, the seller should get back his cart. The shipping and any other costs should be split, although if I was Laurent I'd offer to eat $20 to get back a couple thousand.

    If anyone else knows more about law than I (which is quite a few) let me know if I'm mistaken, because as I've said this is just my interpretation.

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    [quote]Originally posted by CHRiZ-77:
    <strong>IF iT CAME OUT, THAT IīM NOT iNVOLVED...
    A LOT OF GUYS, WHOīVE BLAMMED ME FOR NOTHiNG SHOULD BE SEND TO THE "SUSPENDED LiST!!!"
    Thatīs my offer!!! What about it EvilWasabi and others, maybe youīll be ban then!!!
    BTW, youīre not longer on my "ignore list"...</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Thank you for removing me from your ignore list. I have nothing to really say in response to your comment after posting my thoughts above. But at least why don't you post the contact information you have for Ralph Karels or for Bahamut. It would help expedite his refund, and don't worry about what Kyokugen Star thinks of you afterwards. He's dead here.

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    [quote]Originally posted by EvilWasabi:
    Thank you for removing me from your ignore list. I have nothing to really say in response to your comment after posting my thoughts above. But at least why don't you post the contact information you have for Ralph Karels or for Bahamut. It would help expedite his refund, and don't worry about what Kyokugen Star thinks of you afterwards. He's dead here.<hr></blockquote>

    WHAT SHALL i DO??? IīVE DONE THAT, BEFORE YOU ALL BLAMMED ME, BUT NOW!!! iSNīT MY WAR!!!
    BUT MAYBE THEREīS SOMETHiNG I CAN DO FOR "Bahamut!!!" IīLL TRY TO CONTACT "KS" aka "KYOKUGEN STAR", but NOTHiNG MORE!!!
    I WONīT DO MORE FOR HiM, AFTER PULLiNG ME iNTO DiRT W/O ANY REASON!!!

    RALPH, gib diesem kleinen Lutscher sein Geld zurück, oder einige Dich mit IHM!!!
    Obwohl ER es vielleicht nicht verdient hat!!!
    Have YOU ever felt the spirit of a Neo?



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    BTW: Free your mind, thatīs it!

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    Your name would sparkle like daimonds if you just made a little unselfish effort. Seriously. Get over the "you blamed me" bs and act like the innocent and HONORABLE man you claim to be. As our representative in Germany you can help in ways that many of us cannot.

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    [quote]Originally posted by Blaine:
    <strong>My take on this whole stupidity:

    Someone like Bobak with a greater understanding of law may find fault with my logic, but to the best of my understanding for "fraud" to occur basically all you have to do is prove...well..."fraudulent intent".
    </strong><hr></blockquote>

    Didnt he say that it was an actual metal slug cart in the auction description? How can it not be fraud when he is passing off something which he knows is not what the buyer is expecting for the sole purpose of making money? He missrepresented the merchandise in order to rip off bahumut. Seems like fraud to me.
    -joseph

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    I agree with Blaine that the starting asking price alone denotes that the item for sale was an authentic Metal Slug 1 AES. For KS to claim that Bahamut was greedy by supposedly wanting a US MS1 for "half" of what its worth is reprehensible on many levels...even the price guide on this site has the price of that cart at $1600-$2000 (albeit some lately on EBay have sold for more). And if Chriz wanted it so bad, why did he stop just short, if he shared KS' view that the cart is worth much more? None of this adds up...especially when you throw in the fact that the one who's on the side without direct responsibility is the one making the loudest replies, and the one who's directly guilty is entirely silent.

    Anyway, here's hoping that this episode brings forth positive change, perhaps helping to bring down prices via folks being much, much more cautious with massive purchases like these, or the more reputable sellers like GA and 16-bit getting increased business because of their hard-earned reputations.

    In the end, Kyokugen Star's willingness to trash a formerly solid reputation for one big score is the biggest mystery of all. He could end all of this with one simple act.

    Chriz, you claim everyone is bashing you without any proof. You were first to jump to his defense, even though the facts weigh heavily against him now matter how you look at it. Friendship is one thing, but it's clear that you're only defending him because the trail leads RIGHT BACK TO YOU.

    [ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Loopz ]</p>

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    [quote]Originally posted by joseph:
    <strong>Didnt he say that it was an actual metal slug cart in the auction description?</strong><hr></blockquote>

    I've made no attempt to check out the auction myself as my german is rusty at best and I'd just as soon rely on the information in the threads.

    But if Laurent emailed Ralph's Dad to ask if it was original or not, wouldn't logic dictate it didn't say it explicitly in the auction description?

    That's part of the problem is the auction didn't say flat out "Original" or "Authentic" it simply reference 1996 as the year the game was made.

    My contention is even if the auction didn't say "Authentic" the starting price and Ralph's father's declaration together would indicate that they were representing or willing to represent it as authentic.

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    [quote]Originally posted by Blaine:
    <strong>

    I've made no attempt to check out the auction myself as my german is rusty at best and I'd just as soon rely on the information in the threads.

    But if Laurent emailed Ralph's Dad to ask if it was original or not, wouldn't logic dictate it didn't say it explicitly in the auction description?

    That's part of the problem is the auction didn't say flat out "Original" or "Authentic" it simply reference 1996 as the year the game was made.

    My contention is even if the auction didn't say "Authentic" the starting price and Ralph's father's declaration together would indicate that they were representing or willing to represent it as authentic.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    well, i don't think the auction's description should have explicitly stated that the item was authentic.
    even if the cart itself (and I mean the PCB) comes from SNK, the collecting value of an AES cart is exponentially higher than its MVS counterpart.
    here lies the fraud: KS, using his father's account (why couldn't he use kyoukugen_disciple?) tried to sell a converted cart as an original.
    if there was no criminal intent (yes, criminal) he could have used his account, and not his father's (and KS contributed to his father's feedback: KS, what's the need to buy something from your father on ebay????)

    to bahamut: if you issued a cheque, you should be able to track down who got your money, and i suppose you'll have sent the cheque to an address: so give KS (or better his father, since you dealt with him) 7 days to send your money back (i suggest western union) plus the shipping costs you'll face sending the fake cart back.
    if he refuses to pay, report your case to the local authorities, they will contact the German Police on your behalf.

    and chris77: if you're innocent (and i'm not telling you're not), you've done all you could to prove you're guilty.
    you've been far too aggressive, and usually that's a sign of guilt
    however, bahamut didn't take you in, read the forum again and you'll find out
    and stop the kung-fu crap, it makes you sound a 10 year old, not exactly someone people will buy merchandise from

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    Looks like YOU wonīt stop pulling/blaming me...

    Yeah, course i couldnīt believe whatīs going on...

    THATīS ALL!!! Now, stop these bullshit of "That make you suspicious or Your Guilty!!!"
    Thatīs makes more sense IMO!!!
    Have YOU ever felt the spirit of a Neo?



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  20. #20
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    Just came back to read more about the MS1 fraud. And boy, what did I have to read there...

    To tell you the truth, I was kinda shocked about all those suggestions about banning/black listing Germans or German speaking ppl from any transactions and whatnot. That really stinks, sorry. The only thing I share with KS is the nationality, we're both Germans, yeah, but trying to put me in the very same sinking boat is simply EMBARRASSING to say the least.

    90% of my game buying happens face-to-face, with ppl I know since I was a little kid, and with honest, reliable sellers in or near my home town. Most of us would rather walk a hundred miles on their bare feet to get a deal done correctly than even REMOTELY falling suspicious of unhonourable transactions.

    All of us whacky gamers over here strictly CONDEMN KS's foul play, in every aspect, as well as we are aware that all this may lower the level of trust we Germans/Europeans have in the international neo scene. This alone is bad enough, we'll have to accept it I guess, but we DON'T see reason to mark all of us scammers by default.

    And no, I don't want to protect anyone or excuse anything. The recent events showed me that some parts of the neo community are just feeble-minded little toadies who would sell their granny to get some lousy bucks, and who don't deserve any support other than showing them the door.

    Ralph, wherever you are, get your shit straight with Laurent. Please. End this sad story. This has already gone too far.
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    [quote]Originally posted by Takumaji:
    <strong>Just came back to read more about the MS1 fraud. And boy, what did I have to read there...

    To tell you the truth, I was kinda shocked about all those suggestions about banning/black listing Germans or German speaking ppl from any transactions and whatnot. That really stinks, sorry. The only thing I share with KS is the nationality, we're both Germans, yeah, but trying to put me in the very same sinking boat is simply EMBARRASSING to say the least.

    90% of my game buying happens face-to-face, with ppl I know since I was a little kid, and with honest, reliable sellers in or near my home town. Most of us would rather walk a hundred miles on their bare feet to get a deal done correctly than even REMOTELY falling suspicious of unhonourable transactions.

    All of us whacky gamers over here strictly CONDEMN KS's foul play, in every aspect, as well as we are aware that all this may lower the level of trust we Germans/Europeans have in the international neo scene. This alone is bad enough, we'll have to accept it I guess, but we DON'T see reason to mark all of us scammers by default.

    And no, I don't want to protect anyone or excuse anything. The recent events showed me that some parts of the neo community are just feeble-minded little toadies who would sell their granny to get some lousy bucks, and who don't deserve any support other than showing them the door.

    Ralph, wherever you are, get your shit straight with Laurent. Please. End this sad story. This has already gone too far.</strong><hr></blockquote>


    Not many people actually backed any measures to blacklist all Germans, and not all Germans are talking out against Ralph. Seems like most are taking the back seat.

    The fact you condemn Ralph for his crime separates you from certain other folk.

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    Takumaji,

    mannomann!!! Einige hier haben wirklich Probleme!!!
    Warum glaubt hier eigentlich "fast" Jeder Ich wäre ein "guter" Freund von Ralph???
    Nur weil Ich gesagt habe, Leude lernt erstmal die Fakten kennen, oder besser beide Seiten der Medaille bevor Ihr Leude verurteilt!!!

    EGAL!!! DAS iSS EiN ECHTER KiNDERGARTEN!!!
    Have YOU ever felt the spirit of a Neo?



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  23. #23
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    [quote]Originally posted by Takumaji:
    <strong>To tell you the truth, I was kinda shocked about all those suggestions about banning/black listing Germans or German speaking ppl from any transactions and whatnot.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

    Ignore them.

    By that token I should be banned because I don't condemn Neon Dion and Rhis Cay for thier bad transaction with Shawn. I just don't care. If someone asks if they should use them, I tell them 'no' and site reasons why, but I'm not going on a crusade against them.

    If you don't want to get involved...don't. Who gives a shit whether you back Ralph or Laurent? Anyone who gives a shit what the german public at large feels should either run for office in Germany or shut the hell up.

  24. #24
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    [quote]Originally posted by Blaine:
    <strong> [...] Anyone who gives a shit what the german public at large feels should either run for office in Germany or shut the hell up.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Well put, Blaine.

    The whole situation is caused by collectors items with a market value of more than ten times of its initial price, and by greedy folks, on both sides.
    Check out my new tracks:

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  25. #25
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    Why has no one mentioned the fact that Kyokugens father has the eBay ID "SNKadorer"?

    He obviously knows a little about SNK, and in all likelyhood, NEO GEO.
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