If you live in Cali, vote NO on 74,75,and prop 76

NGT · Sep 21, 2005

well, the wonderful Arnold is trying to screw teachers. If you are a registered voter in california, and these pass....you will be screwing your children because schools will go to crap. You will most likely never have a teacher for your child that has more then 4-5 years experience. It's already hard enough to get people into teaching in california, and this will make anyone with a plan for their personal future to lean away from the education field because that option will most likely not be part of teaching. I know this sounds like someone blabbing about something they don't know much about...well, it is. I don't know all of the ins and outs of this, but I do know the basics and can tell you that these popositions will hurt the education of your children. Don't listen to all the bullshit Arnold is trying to pass, as it will take the power away from the people and give an incredible amount of power to the government. School budgets will be able to be cut 3 times a year without notice. Classrooms will get shorted on funding leaving less money for books and supplies, along with cutting any programs that are even left, like band or computers etc.. There are a ton of other crazy things hidden in this agenda and within these propositions. I promise you, that if these pass your children's schools will be hurting in more ways then one. Inexperienced teachers, little supplies, VERY few to no extra activities, field trip funding will be next to nothing....and much much more.

thanks for reading my little vent, but after listening to everything that will happen if these pass, it scared the crap out of me. I am planning on having kids in California someday and won't be able to afford private school....but unfortunetly, if this continues, that may be the only type of schools available in 5-10 years and the rich will get richer and the poor will get a worse education then ever.

Think about this....20 six year olds are already within a 1st grade classroom. Arnold thinks it will be better to cut classroom size reduction and bump that number to 30-32. Can you imagine a teacher having to manage a classroom of 32 six year olds? 3rd graders...sure! But Kinder or 1st grade? That is INSANE!!!

anyways...NO ON 74,75, an 76 and thanks if you got through my vent

I will try and take some pics or scans of some handouts I have and get them up here for some better detail.....

galfordo · Sep 21, 2005

It might be helpful if you actually list the contents of the propositions, rather than ranting. People tend to dismiss opinions that are so obviously biased.

NGT · Sep 21, 2005

yeah, I am biased...true.

prop 74

The pro stuff says that the schools are getting 3 billion more dollars for spending, but leave out that there was 2 billion cut from the schools budget last year that was never returned. Also says that teachers will be on a probationary status for 5 years instead of 2, prior to getting to a status where they have any type of job security. Because of the governements ability to cut the budget 3 times per year, the schools will be forced to not take many teachers off of this probationary status. Why hire on someone for a long time when you could fire them and get a cheaper teacher? Well, experienced teachers = well educated children.

prop 75

The pro stuff says that it's giving a vote to the employee about what unions do with money that is for polotics, but then it doesn't mention that there would have to be union wide sign ins for anything that was spent on polotics...which takes forever and would slow down the unions ability to put out information on things in time for elections etc. It's not helping the people in the unions. It's actually slowing down the process of the people getting heard.

prop 76

"cut from a website"

In this measure we see the elementary argument about which path our society should take: the conservative direction that government should provide services only minimally, if at all; or the progressive direction, that our society understands the necessity of public funding of societal values, such as world-class public education.

A recent Field Poll (pdf) shows that Prop. 76 is generating an increasingly negative reaction from those likely to vote in November. Last June, 42% were inclined to vote No and 35% supported the measure. Now, the No proportion has soared to 65%, while the Yes vote has declined to 19%.

The amount of money being spent on this ballot measure would go a long way toward funding public education in California.

here's the group of companies supporting 76

Governor Schwarzenegger’s California Recovery Team (whose contributors include Albertson’s, Blue Cross of California, Cingular Wireless, Citigroup, Dreyer’s Grand Ice Cream, Enterprise Rent-a-Car, Outback Steakhouse, Sears , Roebuck & Company, Sun Microsystems, Toyota Motor Sales, Verizon, Walgreens, and Williams Sonoma) plus contributors like Apple Computer, ChevronTexaco, Citigroup, California Chamber of Commerce, Cendant Corporation, CH2MHill, Deloitte & Touche, Long’s Drugs, Safeway, WalMart Stores, etc.

here's a group going against it

* American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME)
* Association of California School Administrators (ACSA)
* California Correctional Peace Officers Association (CCPOA)
* California Faculty Association (CFA)
* California Federation of Teachers (CFT)
* California Labor Federation
* California Professional Firefighters (CPF)
* California School Employees Association (CSEA)
* California Teachers Association (CTA)
* Peace Officers Research Association of California (PORAC)
* Service Employees International Union (SEIU)
* SEIU Local 1000
* Minorities in Law Enforcement

Who's side would you rather be on? I chose police officers and teachers.

like I said, I don't know all of the ins and outs....but I do know that YOUR CHILDREN WILL SUFFER IN THE LONG RUN if these 3 propositions pass. You can trust me on that one.

JHendrix · Sep 21, 2005

NGT said:
yeah, I am biased...true.

prop 74

The pro stuff says that the schools are getting 3 billion more dollars for spending, but leave out that there was 2 billion cut from the schools budget last year that was never returned. Also says that teachers will be on a probationary status for 5 years instead of 2, prior to getting to a status where they have any type of job security. Because of the governements ability to cut the budget 3 times per year, the schools will be forced to not take many teachers off of this probationary status. Why hire on someone for a long time when you could fire them and get a cheaper teacher? Well, experienced teachers = well educated children.

prop 75

The pro stuff says that it's giving a vote to the employee about what unions do with money that is for polotics, but then it doesn't mention that there would have to be union wide sign ins for anything that was spent on polotics...which takes forever and would slow down the unions ability to put out information on things in time for elections etc. It's not helping the people in the unions. It's actually slowing down the process of the people getting heard.

prop 76

"cut from a website"

In this measure we see the elementary argument about which path our society should take: the conservative direction that government should provide services only minimally, if at all; or the progressive direction, that our society understands the necessity of public funding of societal values, such as world-class public education.

A recent Field Poll (pdf) shows that Prop. 76 is generating an increasingly negative reaction from those likely to vote in November. Last June, 42% were inclined to vote No and 35% supported the measure. Now, the No proportion has soared to 65%, while the Yes vote has declined to 19%.

The amount of money being spent on this ballot measure would go a long way toward funding public education in California.

here's the group of companies supporting 76

Governor Schwarzenegger’s California Recovery Team (whose contributors include Albertson’s, Blue Cross of California, Cingular Wireless, Citigroup, Dreyer’s Grand Ice Cream, Enterprise Rent-a-Car, Outback Steakhouse, Sears , Roebuck & Company, Sun Microsystems, Toyota Motor Sales, Verizon, Walgreens, and Williams Sonoma) plus contributors like Apple Computer, ChevronTexaco, Citigroup, California Chamber of Commerce, Cendant Corporation, CH2MHill, Deloitte & Touche, Long’s Drugs, Safeway, WalMart Stores, etc.

here's a group going against it

* American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME)
* Association of California School Administrators (ACSA)
* California Correctional Peace Officers Association (CCPOA)
* California Faculty Association (CFA)
* California Federation of Teachers (CFT)
* California Labor Federation
* California Professional Firefighters (CPF)
* California School Employees Association (CSEA)
* California Teachers Association (CTA)
* Peace Officers Research Association of California (PORAC)
* Service Employees International Union (SEIU)
* SEIU Local 1000
* Minorities in Law Enforcement

Who's side would you rather be on? I chose police officers and teachers.

like I said, I don't know all of the ins and outs....but I do know that YOUR CHILDREN WILL SUFFER IN THE LONG RUN if these 3 propositions pass. You can trust me on that one.

WOW

You just bought the Teachers Union spiel hook line and sinker, or you're in the Teachers Union.

Any time the Teachers Union is threatened with a cut in political power or their outrageous demands are not catered to, it gets completely spun into "AN ATTACK ON OUR CHILDREN!!!one!!!11ONE"

Notice Prop 75. It requires a vote by union members on where they want their dues being donated to politically. This doesn't reduce time to donation AT ALL. Donations are planned months in advance of the actual giving of cash and a simple vote amongst members to approve where the funding goes will not slow down the process since it could be done months in advance of even where the planning starts now!

This does NOTHING to your kids and has everything to do with the teachers union being able to blanketly give to the Democratic Party.

And notice how your spiel on Prop 76 doesn't even mention what the proposition actually DOES, it's just commentary on "Right vs Left" and who supports what.

Here is what Prop 76 does, link.

It's basically allowing the CA Govenor to cap spending on schools and transportation to keep it in line with revenue growth as far as the state treasury goes.

WOW you mean you'd only get to increase funding based on how much money your state has? FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY? SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!

This actually forces people to make a choice, increase education funding more while having to cut other areas of spending, or distribute the funds as they see fit. No more blanket increase spending.

We need more people to vote YES to this stuff and it needs to be done on a national level. Mainly to stop Bush and congress from pissing away our cash in a deficit that we can't afford.

IMTheWalrus · Sep 21, 2005

Yeah, I must say that this doesn't seem quite as bad as I had anticipated. My general opinion is that teachers are paid far too little for the job that they do. But that will take an instituional change rather than minor propositions.

I think if we don't address the education issues soon we are going to have a shortage of qualified teachers. The state of Maryland had a program when I was entering college that they would give an annual $3K grant to students who would be education majors, but that was cut (all Hope scholarships for MD were cut) when we got our new asshole governor. These are the types of programs I think we should encourage more, but our priorities aren't straight.

Anyway, point is that I don't think these propositions will make much of a difference either way in the long run. There needs to be a major change.

Magnaflux · Sep 21, 2005

Hurt the education of our children? Bullshit.

We've got more fucking education in this country than anywhere else in the world I bet.

I can't drive anywhere without passing at least a few universitites, community colleges or vo-techs.

One doesn't really learn jack shit in primary education anyways.

Here in OK, everyone with a degree moves out of state because we have more education than we could possibly use here.

norton9478 · Sep 21, 2005

Magnaflux said:
Hurt the education of our children? Bullshit.

We've got more fucking education in this country than anywhere else in the world I bet.

I can't drive anywhere without passing at least a few universitites, community colleges or vo-techs.

One doesn't really learn jack shit in primary education anyways.

Here in OK, everyone with a degree moves out of state because we have more education than we could possibly use here.

I really don't know where to begin. So I'll just get the +1

Eric · Sep 21, 2005

Oh noes. Don't listen to Arnold. Listen to paid advertisements that go against what Arnold wants. :eek:

Both of these options suck. :envy:

NGT said:
prop 74

The pro stuff says that the schools are getting 3 billion more dollars for spending, but leave out that there was 2 billion cut from the schools budget last year that was never returned.

Oh dear... a $1 billion increase in spending when it's all said and done. Those fiends. :mad:

So far I haven't cared enough to look into everything that will be on the ballot. I vote absentee so I have plenty of time to read up on them. :loco:

NickD · Sep 21, 2005

I make a prediction right now... They will amend the constitution for him (Arnold) soon. I don't know how soon but it will happen.

Magnaflux · Sep 21, 2005

NickD said:
I make a prediction right now... They will amend the constitution for him (Arnold) soon. I don't know how soon but it will happen.

No immigrant presidents! :envy:

norton9478 · Sep 21, 2005

I probably would vote against a prop like this but Arnold fucked himself when he called unions special interest groups.

aria · Sep 21, 2005

The fall of Arnold is in full swing

The honeymoon with Hollywood ended a while ago, now the Governator finds himself a red governor in a very blue state. His approval ratings are still falling, which was no big surprise. People have gotten over the novelty of having the Kindergarten Cop as governor.

The vast majority of city-voters are against him, so I predict a loss.

FeelGood · Sep 21, 2005

unions are bullshit. anywhere there is a union there is a workplace full of dumbucks that cant be fired. ive worked with a few and you are forced to join and give them money for god knows what. my brother was in one and like 4 months after he quit he got a bill from them for those four months he wasnt even with them because he didnt sign some paper saying he was leaving. lol the sucker paid it too, i would of shoved it up their ass.

im not political so i dunno if awnold is doing a good job or not. everything i hear is anti awnold but it all has to do with the teachers union bitching and moaning so who the hell knows. did he announce he would run again? thought that was supposed to be last week.

aria · Sep 21, 2005

FeelGood said:
did he announce he would run again? thought that was supposed to be last week.

He did and yes, he's running for re-election.

NGT · Sep 23, 2005

Magnaflux said:
Hurt the education of our children? Bullshit.

We've got more fucking education in this country than anywhere else in the world I bet.

I can't drive anywhere without passing at least a few universitites, community colleges or vo-techs.

One doesn't really learn jack shit in primary education anyways.

Here in OK, everyone with a degree moves out of state because we have more education than we could possibly use here.

You are stupid....really. "One doesn't learn jack shit in primary education"????? In first grade, children learn how to read and write. How isn't that jack shit? They learn what numbers are over 30, how to blend letter sounds into words, adding, subtracting, reading graphs, measuring, and much much more. Step into a 1st grade classroom in September and then go back to that same class in June and then open your mouth on the subject.

For the people who vote yes for these, I seriously hope you know what you are going to do to your children. Nobody is going to go in education that is worth a dime. Why? because as soon as they start making enough money to get anywhere in this overpriced state, they will get fired in some form or another because of the budget cuts. It's not going to make teachers work harder, because they already do. If you don't think so, then you just don't know any better.

Who else puts in 10-12 hour days and takes work home at night and on the weekends? People actually think that when people get this magical "tenure" they are not able to be fired....well, you're wrong. The only differences is that negative evaluations or something really bad that is done, result in a hearing for the person to plead their case, rather then just getting fired. If these bills pass, there will be no hearings and teachers (GOOD TEACHERS) will get fired because they make too much money...when they are what's best for YOUR children.

Someone in this thread talked about responsibility, well, voting NO on all 3 of these propositions is the responsible thing to do. 1 billion for education sounds like so much damn money, but look at how many schools are in california that that money is going to. Look at how underpaid teachers are for doing the amount of work they do. Look at that compared to the cost of living in california and tell me why teachers rent apartments in my town while the trash men own a 4 bedroom home. Teachers and public education are taken for grantit and when all this goes down and years from now when public education is gone and rich kids are the only kids that get a good education....remember this thread when your son can't read at age 10.

Stinky-Dinkins · Sep 23, 2005

NGT said:
You are stupid....really. "One doesn't learn jack shit in primary education"????? In first grade, children learn how to read and write. How isn't that jack shit? They learn what numbers are over 30, how to blend letter sounds into words, adding, subtracting, reading graphs, measuring, and much much more. Step into a 1st grade classroom in September and then go back to that same class in June and then open your mouth on the subject.

For the people who vote yes for these, I seriously hope you know what you are going to do to your children. Nobody is going to go in education that is worth a dime. Why? because as soon as they start making enough money to get anywhere in this overpriced state, they will get fired in some form or another because of the budget cuts. It's not going to make teachers work harder, because they already do. If you don't think so, then you just don't know any better.

Who else puts in 10-12 hour days and takes work home at night and on the weekends? People actually think that when people get this magical "tenure" they are not able to be fired....well, you're wrong. The only differences is that negative evaluations or something really bad that is done, result in a hearing for the person to plead their case, rather then just getting fired. If these bills pass, there will be no hearings and teachers (GOOD TEACHERS) will get fired because they make too much money...when they are what's best for YOUR children.

Someone in this thread talked about responsibility, well, voting NO on all 3 of these propositions is the responsible thing to do. 1 billion for education sounds like so much damn money, but look at how many schools are in california that that money is going to. Look at how underpaid teachers are for doing the amount of work they do. Look at that compared to the cost of living in california and tell me why teachers rent apartments in my town while the trash men own a 4 bedroom home. Teachers and public education are taken for grantit and when all this goes down and years from now when public education is gone and rich kids are the only kids that get a good education....remember this thread when your son can't read at age 10.

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1663855&postcount=4

Magnaflux · Sep 23, 2005

We keep throwing more and more money at public schools and it doesn't change a damned thing. The only thing that's changed is the amount of money being pissed away.

The problem is incompetence. Lawrence J. Peter, nuff said.

Like I said, education is a booming industry. There's a college/vo-tech/university on every street corner. Our problem isn't education.

100 years ago a child had to prove competence in say the 7th grade to be considered an 8th grader. Today that child doesn't have to have grades good enough, he is passed along to the next grade.

Kids don't need to be competent to graduate. Money can't possibly fix that. Unions can't fix that. Legislation can't fix that. Kids don't learn shit because it's not required to get promoted. I graduated high school with people who couldn't read!

Nesagwa · Sep 23, 2005

NGT said:
well, the wonderful Arnold is trying to screw teachers. If you are a registered voter in california, and these pass....you will be screwing your children because schools will go to crap. You will most likely never have a teacher for your child that has more then 4-5 years experience. It's already hard enough to get people into teaching in california, and this will make anyone with a plan for their personal future to lean away from the education field because that option will most likely not be part of teaching. I know this sounds like someone blabbing about something they don't know much about...well, it is. I don't know all of the ins and outs of this, but I do know the basics and can tell you that these popositions will hurt the education of your children. Don't listen to all the bullshit Arnold is trying to pass, as it will take the power away from the people and give an incredible amount of power to the government. School budgets will be able to be cut 3 times a year without notice. Classrooms will get shorted on funding leaving less money for books and supplies, along with cutting any programs that are even left, like band or computers etc.. There are a ton of other crazy things hidden in this agenda and within these propositions. I promise you, that if these pass your children's schools will be hurting in more ways then one. Inexperienced teachers, little supplies, VERY few to no extra activities, field trip funding will be next to nothing....and much much more.

thanks for reading my little vent, but after listening to everything that will happen if these pass, it scared the crap out of me. I am planning on having kids in California someday and won't be able to afford private school....but unfortunetly, if this continues, that may be the only type of schools available in 5-10 years and the rich will get richer and the poor will get a worse education then ever.

Think about this....20 six year olds are already within a 1st grade classroom. Arnold thinks it will be better to cut classroom size reduction and bump that number to 30-32. Can you imagine a teacher having to manage a classroom of 32 six year olds? 3rd graders...sure! But Kinder or 1st grade? That is INSANE!!!

anyways...NO ON 74,75, an 76 and thanks if you got through my vent

I will try and take some pics or scans of some handouts I have and get them up here for some better detail.....

32 kids in a 1st grade classroom. OH THE HORROR!

I had no less than 30 kids in all my classes well into highschool (depending on the class in HS).

IMTheWalrus · Sep 23, 2005

Magnaflux said:
We keep throwing more and more money at public schools and it doesn't change a damned thing. The only thing that's changed is the amount of money being pissed away.

The problem is incompetence. Lawrence J. Peter, nuff said.

Like I said, education is a booming industry. There's a college/vo-tech/university on every street corner. Our problem isn't education.

100 years ago a child had to prove competence in say the 7th grade to be considered an 8th grader. Today that child doesn't have to have grades good enough, he is passed along to the next grade.

Kids don't need to be competent to graduate. Money can't possibly fix that. Unions can't fix that. Legislation can't fix that. Kids don't learn shit because it's not required to get promoted. I graduated high school with people who couldn't read!

But I think that the real problem isn't so much that you need to pump more money into the system, but rather fund the schools that are ridiculously underfunded. In Maryland, for instance, Baltimore City Schools spend $1000 per student annually, but Montgomery County schools spend $8000 per student annually. Obviously the reason for this is property taxes being higher in Montgomery county due to higher property values. But my point is that we are supposed to have a system where everybody gets an opportunity for a fair education, and the city schools are so ridiculously underfunded that it's not the case.

I also think that we have a problem with how we spend money on public schools. No Child Left Behind turned out to be no more than a glorified testing program that only created more of these inequities between rich and poor schools. It seems we aren't spending money on increasing salaries for teachers to make them more qualified, providing grants for college educations for teachers, or simply spending money on more supplies like books, desks, etc.

Unfortunately, neither party addresses these issues. They both have half assed solutions that don't really work and are fueled by lobbyists. The federal government should literally dictate how partially federally funded schools spend their money.

Nesagwa · Sep 23, 2005

The real problem Walrus is that the current system is set up to fail.

Throwing money into a system that doesnt work is a waste of time.

Stinky-Dinkins · Sep 23, 2005

Debatable

Nesagwa said:
The real problem Walrus is that the current system is set up to fail.

Throwing money into a system that doesnt work is a waste of time.

Magnaflux · Sep 23, 2005

IMTheWalrus said:
But I think that the real problem isn't so much that you need to pump more money into the system, but rather fund the schools that are ridiculously underfunded. In Maryland, for instance, Baltimore City Schools spend $1000 per student annually, but Montgomery County schools spend $8000 per student annually. Obviously the reason for this is property taxes being higher in Montgomery county due to higher property values. But my point is that we are supposed to have a system where everybody gets an opportunity for a fair education, and the city schools are so ridiculously underfunded that it's not the case.

I also think that we have a problem with how we spend money on public schools. No Child Left Behind turned out to be no more than a glorified testing program that only created more of these inequities between rich and poor schools. It seems we aren't spending money on increasing salaries for teachers to make them more qualified, providing grants for college educations for teachers, or simply spending money on more supplies like books, desks, etc.

Unfortunately, neither party addresses these issues. They both have half assed solutions that don't really work and are fueled by lobbyists. The federal government should literally dictate how partially federally funded schools spend their money.

Incompetence.

FeelGood · Sep 23, 2005

teachers work about 7 hours a day (including lunch) then get to go home and put smiley faces on homework. they also get every holiday, real or made up by the school system off, a free two week and one week vacation every year, and a 3 month vacation ever year.

oh...the...horror. :eek:

i would barely call what elementary teachers do...work. hell, i could prolly be one. now, if i was a high school teacher, i would prolly kill myself.

OlderGames · Sep 23, 2005

NGT said:
I know this sounds like someone blabbing about something they don't know much about...well, it is.

Damn straight! :buttrock:

IF you had the slightest clue you'd already know that
the California school system has been in the shitter
for a long, long time. How do I know this? Well... let's
just say that my mother is a very highly respected
teacher in California and I had 18 years to hear
all about what a joke our local school system is. :chump:

Ely13 · Sep 23, 2005

OlderGames said:
Damn straight!

IF you had the slightest clue you'd already know that
the California school system has been in the shitter
for a long, long time. How do I know this? Well... let's
just say that my mother is a very highly respected
teacher in California and I had 18 years to hear
all about what a joke our local school system is. :chump:

As someone whose been involved with the California public school system and private tutoring services (much less having worked with a number of public and private school teachers), I agree.

CA teachers have some of the most ridiculous job security. I think it's something like ~2 years and you're set for life. Gives the public school teachers a lot of incentive to continue doing a good job, eh?

It's not all to blame on the teachers, though. Getting rid of phonics was an even stupider idea than teaching intelligent design.

If you live in Cali, vote NO on 74,75,and prop 76

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