Tropes vs. Women

So, the first part of the highly controversial Kickstarter funded video series examining female stereotypes is up. Don't know if anyone's interested in this,but it's a significant event in modern gaming culture because of all the heat the host has generated over the subject, and her videos in general.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5A...ature=youtu.be

I watched it and found it to be well researched but one sided. You cannot simply attack this kind of trope. It exists for a reason, and to discuss it in an intellectual context, one must approach the subject matter fairly and responsibly.

I also found disfavor with her opinionated view of Double Dragon Neon's opening. i thought it was amateurish and unprofessional for her to call it 'crap' just because she doesn't like seeing a woman get punched in the opening scene of a video game.

I get it. She doesn't like it and that's fine. But if she wants her work to rise above the level of 'youtuber', she needs to avoid expressing her moral outrage.

She just wants attention :lolz:

My wife was just telling me an interesting thing she saw on some documentary. She can't cite it, but she remembers that there was this experiment where they took young boys and young girls and put them both in cribs. Then the mothers stood just beyond reach outside the crib.

In every case study, the boy struggled to find a way to get out of the crib and back to his mother, and the girl sat there and cried and waited to be rescued by her mother.

Interesting stuff there.

I don't remember if it was Jeung or Freud, or both, who postulated that boys all desire the womb and girls all desire the world to conform to what they desire. These are all inhibitions that must be overcome before true maturity can be achieved. I read about this examination of men and women and how they relate to the monomyth in Joseph Campbell's The Hero With A Thousand Faces.

Oh I don't doubt that one bit, most girls that I know will do little things like clearing throat, heavy sighing, and even throwing tantrums to get what they want and how they want it. It's a lack of independence in most cases that causes this. Simply sad to hear a woman talk about how they feel they should be treated equally yet expect the world to instantly treat them this way with no earning of it. Sounds like a double standard don't you think?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4251968.stm

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Originally Posted by PleaseKillMeNow

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4251968.stm

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But Dr Nick Neave, a spokesman for the British Psychological Society and an expert in sex differences at the University of Northumbria, said men and women did differ.

"Scientists have been guilty of over-emphasising sex differences.

"There are differences. Ignoring them is foolish, and exaggerating them is dangerous.

"But that doesn't mean that society shouldn't treat the genders equally."

Hah, today is International Women's Day.

Anyway, someone needs to make a rebuttal with male video game characters.

I found the video pretty decent, myself. Sure there were rough edges, but as a female gamer, I can relate.

It's also why I stick to fighting games. The female characters, especially in the KoF and GG franchises, are portrayed better than in most other games.

We have a long way to go, but at least we're making progress in terms of some modern games.

lethal_weapon.jpeg

That channel name...:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Taiso

.... female stereotypes ....

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She's got a lot of work to do.

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I. List of Gender Stereotypes

--Women are supposed to have "clean jobs" such as secretaries, teachers, and librarians
--Women are nurses, not doctors
--Women are not as strong as men
--Women are supposed to make less money than men
--The best women are stay at home moms
--Women don’t need to go to college
--Women don’t play sports
--Women are not politicians
--Women are quieter than men and not meant to speak out
--Women are supposed to be submissive and do as they are told
--Women are supposed to cook and do housework
--Women are responsible for raising children
--Women do not have technical skills and are not good at "hands on" projects such as car repairs
--Women are meant to be the damsel in distress; never the hero
--Women are supposed to look pretty and be looked at
--Women love to sing and dance
--Women do not play video games
--Women are flirts
--Women are never in charge

II. Gender Stereotypes

Gender stereotypes are simplistic generalizations about the gender attributes, differences, and roles of individuals and/or groups. ... The weight of scientific evidence demonstrates that children learn gender stereotypes from adults. ... Emerging as a powerful sociopolitical force beginning in the 1960s, the feminist movement, or women's liberation movement, has lobbied for the rights of women and minorities. Feminists have fought hard to challenge and redefine traditional stereotypic gender roles.

III. 6 Gender Stereotypes Around the World

IV. 6 Absurd Gender Stereotypes (That Science Says Are True)

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Originally Posted by Taiso

The Hero With A Thousand Faces.

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You mean this dude?

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/member.php?130-neobuyer

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Originally Posted by Stefan

You mean this dude?

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/member.php?130-neobuyer

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No, that's The Scammer With A Thousand Faces.

Written by Judge Dredd.

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Originally Posted by Taiso

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q&feature=youtu.be

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bitch needs to make me a sandwich.

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Originally Posted by Taiso

But Dr Nick Neave, a spokesman for the British Psychological Society and an expert in sex differences at the University of Northumbria, said men and women did differ.

"Scientists have been guilty of over-emphasising sex differences.

"There are differences. Ignoring them is foolish, and exaggerating them is dangerous.

"But that doesn't mean that society shouldn't treat the genders equally."

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I like how you've glossed over the part with the scientific research and go straight for the part where someone's giving an opinion. Isn't that why you hated the original video?

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Originally Posted by PleaseKillMeNow

I like how you've glossed over the part with the scientific research and go straight for the part where someone's giving an opinion. Isn't that why you hated the original video?

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I like how you took my view as 'hating' the video when I didn't.

Don't sweat it, Taiso. It seems to be Wopats thing these days.

Sort of on topic, but I think 95% of female video game characters are trash.

Off the top of my head some decent ones are:

http://i.imgur.com/nXZbm.jpg
http://game.snkplaymore.co.jp/offici...k_p_shiki1.jpg
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/...11_vanessa.jpg

And uh.....that's about it, I think.

Just another youtuber.

Double Dragon Neon is a fake Double Dragon game.

EDIT: Technos should be rolling over in their graves.

I need two 400+ level classes to graduate. I took two comm classes with the same professor. Now I know why people always ask each other how the proff is. Heavy work load, you needed to read a book, write a ten page paper and do a project every week for each class. They should've been labeled as woman's studies classes. Again guess I should've done more research, my fault. Anyways the teacher would give an example on how to do speeches and debates which was kinda cool, but they'd always be like this; only a less exciting topic. These two should be best friends. I can't believe I watched the whole video. It's like Nam '75.... do I have to go back to this hell again?

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/Show...sp?tid=1191346

She forgot about Peach being playable in Super Mario RPG! RHAAAA!! ::NERD RAGE!!!:::: !!!one!!!11

you didnt like it cuz she's ugly.

there's a whole lot that she could have covered but she just skipped over/ignored, twenty some off minutes and only Nintendo is your main topic? Hell the whole awkward build up for the new Tomb Raider and the still awkwardness of it's release would have been a better intro subject, there wasn't even a hint of tackling race issues in the part 2 preview.

And that was a unneeded shot at Double Dragon Neon

I didn't see her talking about Phantasy Star I either....

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AZlonkQd-4...600/VMPHS3.png

I can't wait for her to talk about Fighting Games and the FGC.

:cool: / :mr_t:

The second part is up.

If anyone is wondering why I'm posting this here, or why I care, it's because I think it's a point of view worth considering. Not necessarily agreeing with or disagreeing with. But at least thinking about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs&feature=player_embedded

For the record, this one opened my eyes to something I never thought before.

In most of these games where the love interest is murdered or her soul is stolen and you have to save it, I don't really care about the character. In so many instances, it's just a plot convenience to send the hero off on his adventure. But, if you stop to think about it, if the game is going to engage in complex narrative structure revolving around women in distress or revenge plots about women being killed, shouldn't the game actually try to make you care about the stakes involved?

For the record, I disagree with her on a couple of her examples. One that she's way off base on is Kana from Ninja Gaiden 3. People can feel whatever they want about that game, and Kana IS used as a tool for destruction, but the game's ending reveals that the thing around Kana is not her. She's inside the monster, not transformed in to it. And when Ryu reaches that fateful moment where you cut through the outer shell and the action just hangs with your sword hovering right in front of her face and you are forced to strike, you are not perpetrating violence against her.

EDIT: This moment stands as one of the few truly beautiful expressions of theme in a video game in the last twenty years for me, and is a magnificent and emotional scene even when you don't consider how the game's theme is so perfectly expressed.

This scene is an expression of the power Ryu possesses. He is so good at what he does that he can go to town on a goddess and still have the precision to save the little girl trapped inside. This is the absolute essence of a hero's responsibility, and is the fucking CORE QUESTION being posed by the game.

What is Ryu? Is he a hero or a destroyer?

The answer is complicated but based on the fact that Kana survives precisely because Ryu knows how to exercise restraint and not just kill anything in his path of justice, he IS a hero. But he fills a complicated role in the world he inhabits.

Yes, DOA and Ninja Gaiden objectify women. Won't even deny that. But not in the case of Ryu's supposed stereotype reinforcing acts of violence on Kana.

I could give equal dissertation on all my other disagreements with Anita in this post, but you get the picture. She is focused on studying the correlations between misogynistic and sociopathic tendencies in society and how games encourage that, but not so much on doing a double take on every game she uses as fuel for her argument. There are a number of games she shows in this one that, given a second look, don't apply.

This is, perhaps, the biggest flaw I find in her dissertation. She wants all of us to check our viewpoint, but she's unwilling to do the same thing when she starts bringing up specific examples which, quite honesty, are easy to disregard.

man, what blows my mind is that I haven't a clue what's being talked about. The last current gen game I played was RE6, and before that, Fallout Vegas. Neither of them have these gender issues, as far as I saw. Ada Wong was definitely not in distress. She never needed Leon as much as he needed her to save his ass from the chainsaw maniac. Fallout doesn't care if you are using a female or a male, but either way, the closes thing I can think of that has a damsel in distress was Vera in the Dead Money add-on. Otherwise, I don't see this as a huge issue. It's like the writer wants to make the issue happen in order to have an argument. Now that, might be a stereotype...

Anita's videos on the subject prove that the tropes are out there in droves in gaming.

The sad thing is that it shows such a lack of imagination or narrative agility for developers to fall back on the trope and not do better with it.

She's not entirely wrong to take this trope to the woodshed. But its not the existence of the trope that bugs me. It's how poorly it's executed in so many games. If the woman is only going to be a cause for revenge and only be an excuse to get gamers mashing buttons, why not have the dude's house get burned down or his winning lottery ticket get stolen? If 'writing by the numbers' is the only way they can introduce and handle these elements of storytelling, they shouldn't even bother with it. It's half assed bullshit, and the more I think about all the games I've played where I really didn't care about the motivation the female victim provided, the more annoyed I'm getting.

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Originally Posted by Taiso

Anita's videos on the subject prove that the tropes are out there in droves in gaming.

The sad thing is that it shows such a lack of imagination or narrative agility for developers to fall back on the trope and not do better with it.

She's not entirely wrong to take this trope to the woodshed. But its not the existence of the trope that bugs me. It's how poorly it's executed in so many games. If the woman is only going to be a cause for revenge and only be an excuse to get gamers mashing buttons, why not have the dude's house get burned down or his winning lottery ticket get stolen? If 'writing by the numbers' is the only way they can introduce and handle these elements of storytelling, they shouldn't even bother with it. It's half assed bullshit, and the more I think about all the games I've played where I really didn't care about the motivation the female victim provided, the more annoyed I'm getting.

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by trope you mean, one, and only one, of the many kinds of tropes that exist - cliche? Because I don't see how the other tropes really apply.

I'm not trying to make a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be, but she is basically making an unwarranted blanket statement about tropes. Not all tropes want to be associated with cliches. Cliches aren't cool or popular. Not like understatement, who is actually funny.

I don't think it's unwarranted to say that women are written poorly and in many cases cater to a misogynistic portrayal in storytelling.

And as stewards of narrative, game companies should really be trying harder to do better with this type of storytelling.

I wonder if she'll ever cop to the fact that these things are appealing to a certain percentage of human beings not because of how they've been enforced to condition behavior but because people actually don't care enough to stand against it? For good or bad, this cause might not even be winnable due to sheer apathy?

Do game companies really think that this type of storytelling sells games? CoD would prove otherwise.

Meh. I play Civ5. Checkmate, atheists!

Wait, women don't need to be sheltered and protected?

That would imply that women don't want to be sheltered and protected. (read: spoiled)

They like to play the damsel themselves. Women like to use men when they can't (or just plain don't want to) do something, but get mad if we imply that they can't do something. You can't have it both ways, bitches.

Women are fully capable of taking care of themselves, but there are physical differences to what they can and can't do compared to men, that's just facing facts.

BORING!!!

I wana see Tropes vs. Taliban

:D

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Originally Posted by Sex Lord Ki_atsushi

Wait, women don't need to be sheltered and protected?

That would imply that women don't want to be sheltered and protected. (read: spoiled)

They like to play the damsel themselves. Women like to use men when they can't (or just plain don't want to) do something, but get mad if we imply that they can't do something. You can't have it both ways, bitches.

Women are fully capable of taking care of themselves, but there are physical differences to what they can and can't do compared to men, that's just facing facts.

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There is definitely some onus on women to work on the bad rap they get for enforcing the 'victims' of their gender.

Which is, whether you like her or not, exactly what Anita Sarkeesian is doing. I welcome the dialogue precisely for that reason-it's always good to check yourself. Just wish she did more to that effect more often.

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Originally Posted by aria

Meh. I play Civ5. Checkmate, atheists!

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Catherine vs. Elizabeth catfight! meow.

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Originally Posted by Tyranix95

BORING!!!

I wana see Tropes vs. Taliban

:D

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Tropes vs. Tyrannosaurs!

Well, I think its about time we had some fighting games with guys that have big jiggly packages. I think that should about even it out. Also, no women characters in that game. And lost of grapple moves... with like a slow motion camera angle matrix kind of thing going on. I think a few games like that would even things out pretty well. Maybe you could use your kinect to see who you are playing against, and maybe you would have to pose out some of the moves with motion controls. Hell, I may have just come up with a idea for a new xbox launch title. We could call it something like Man on Man full contact Wrestling Or The Heroic Outrageous Manly Ones.... or for short The H.O.M.O's.

I get so sick of all this trope-this and trope that complaining. Everyone who complains about female tropes in entertainment needs to go out and write a novel or write for tv or direct a movie or produce a video game or start writing comics. Stop standing around whining about how male writers in whatever medium write things from a male perspective with a male audience in mind. If you don't like it, get the fuck in there and make something. And no, fucking youtube videos do not count.

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Originally Posted by SouthtownKid

I get so sick of all this trope-this and trope that complaining. Everyone who complains about female tropes in entertainment needs to go out and write a novel or write for tv or direct a movie or produce a video game or start writing comics. Stop standing around whining about how male writers in whatever medium write things from a male perspective with a male audience in mind. If you don't like it, get the fuck in there and make something. And no, fucking youtube videos do not count.

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This was attempted with the successful shitty comedy Bridesmaids.

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Originally Posted by FAT$TACKS

Well, I think its about time we had some fighting games with guys that have big jiggly packages. I think that should about even it out. Also, no women characters in that game. And lost of grapple moves... with like a slow motion camera angle matrix kind of thing going on. I think a few games like that would even things out pretty well. Maybe you could use your kinect to see who you are playing against, and maybe you would have to pose out some of the moves with motion controls. Hell, I may have just come up with a idea for a new xbox launch title. We could call it something like Man on Man full contact Wrestling Or The Heroic Outrageous Manly Ones.... or for short The H.O.M.O's.

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The Japanese already invented Sumo centuries ago.

Reason should be obvious why none of those video games ever makes it to the US shores.

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Originally Posted by aria

Tropes vs. Tyrannosaurs!

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Now that's kinda one sided. :eek_2:

http://wallpapersuzie.com/thumbnails...rhi.com_26.jpg

Naw, what she needs is a Barbarian.

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Originally Posted by Taiso

I don't think it's unwarranted to say that women are written poorly and in many cases cater to a misogynistic portrayal in storytelling.

And as stewards of narrative, game companies should really be trying harder to do better with this type of storytelling.

I wonder if she'll ever cop to the fact that these things are appealing to a certain percentage of human beings not because of how they've been enforced to condition behavior but because people actually don't care enough to stand against it? For good or bad, this cause might not even be winnable due to sheer apathy?

Do game companies really think that this type of storytelling sells games? CoD would prove otherwise.

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From her twitter comments she might be lumping people like that in the camp of the people trying to silence her( that second video was flagged so hard it was taken down for a bit yesterday )

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Originally Posted by SouthtownKid

I get so sick of all this trope-this and trope that complaining. Everyone who complains about female tropes in entertainment needs to go out and write a novel or write for tv or direct a movie or produce a video game or start writing comics. Stop standing around whining about how male writers in whatever medium write things from a male perspective with a male audience in mind. If you don't like it, get the fuck in there and make something. And no, fucking youtube videos do not count.

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I disagree with this viewpoint.

By this logic, only athletes can be critical of sports and only artists can be critical of art.

One doesn't have to be a game developer to criticize the tropes and memes that exist in the industry. In fact, you're more likely to get objective criticism from independent observers.

I think your issue here is that she has an agenda. She's not going after this issue in an academic or studious way. She's a pissed off feminist propping her argument up with research. She's a high profile internet grouse.

The subject is still worth thinking about and discussing.

The youtube lady is half right in that there ARE a lot of stereotypes in video games that male gamers don't even notice anymore, and this is where the problem lies. IMO it's not sexism we're talking about here but a certain carelessness towards these things on part of the gamer community who used to be predominantly male.

Other than that, I don't like how she talks about stereotypes and then comes up with some herself. I also completely disagree with what she said about Double Dragon Neon. She's taking the whole thing too far.

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Originally Posted by Taiso

I disagree with this viewpoint.

By this logic, only athletes can be critical of sports and only artists can be critical of art.

One doesn't have to be a game developer to criticize the tropes and memes that exist in the industry. In fact, you're more likely to get objective criticism from independent observers.

I think your issue here is that she has an agenda. She's not going after this issue in an academic or studious way. She's a pissed off feminist propping her argument up with research. She's a high profile internet grouse.

The subject is still worth thinking about and discussing.

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No, it means that people need to stop bitching when they see a problem, and take advantage of it. And if it's a success, then they benefit - if it's not, then they are just vain whiners.

This is a stupid discussion.

I fucking love stupid discussions.

Excuse me, but a trope is really a figure of speech, not a stereotype or cliché. I would like to add that I don't give a shit what this pseudo-intellectual is babbling about on youtube.

Youtube ports of Women's studies on n-g.com? Multicarts being sold by the neostore? Much has changed since my last visit to this place...

I forgot to say that I had more than enough Postcolonial and Women's studies to last me a lifetime when I was at university...oh the joy of taking 19th century literature to discover the professor had decided to make it Feminist readings of 19th c. literature...:mad:

Sarkeesian is also being wilfully ignorant about the inherenty need for mythology that exists within the human subconscious.

Every culture has its own Theseus story. Even today, stories about young men triumphing over evil and winning the love of the damsel in distress aren't simply about objectifying the woman.

The psychological need to win the heart of someone you find desirable is a form of validation. It's an expression of conquest over one's own insecurities as much as it is a victory over someone's heart.

This stuff comes from a place deeper than she is willing to cop to. Even when poorly handled or executed, it is coming from places that simply exist within us, inextricably connected but independent of anything we, as divisions of culture, are able to put our fingers on. Even the deepest attempts to explain why we feel them don't explain why they exist.

Sarkeesian's criticisms are dodging around the issue of why they're so ingrained, and she's straw manning them by saying 'it's all enforced gender stereotypes' as though the supposed male dominated creative minds of the entertainment industry have some insidious hate agenda against vaginas. It's simply not true.

Another thing she's not really willing to face up to: storytelilng, daydreaming, making up adventures...these are things children do. Those of us who grow up to make money doing it never completely mature. That childlike fascination with telling stories is an impulse that, even at its most effete and arrogant, is meant to impress others and satisfy some inner urge to express one's self for the sake of validation. In a strange way, the insecurity behind this is tied very closely with the hero's own insecurity about conquering evil and winning the heart of the woman he has fallen in love with.

These are not strictly hate agendas enforced by the entertainment industry. They're just poorly executed ideas and concepts that need better administration, both by the creators and their overseers.

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Originally Posted by Lovecraft0110

I would like to add that I don't give a shit what this pseudo-intellectual is babbling about on youtube.

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At least we know that you don't care now.

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Originally Posted by Taiso

At least we know that you don't care now.

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Heheh, very good.

Thanks for taking that in the humorous tone intended. It's got a bit more unintentional snark than I generally use when responding to other forum members except for Saner because he's the king of the dipshits.

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Originally Posted by Taiso

both by the creators and their overseers.

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Creators shouldn't have overseers. A real piece of art should be allowed to develop solely by the hands of the creator. Otherwise, you end up with Dune.