Tywin doesn't really get enough screen time, and I feel like if an audience here's him say "wherever whores go!" while sitting on a chamber pot, they won't understand the significance of the statement, because the show has completely glossed over every trademark line except hodor.
It is challenging to convey the long-lasting psychological wounds Tywin has inflicted upon his kin in the format of a TV show. So instead, they have focused on him as a tyrannical puppet master, an important aspect of his character that is more readily communicable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Wasabi
Who knows, maybe the writers will do a better job with Tywin next season.
:D
You said 'they ain't shit'. I'm just pointing that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickrb
You are right, it was a poor choice of words and not quite what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiso
The show can have scenes that we would never see in the books- those without any POV character. It is a key difference. Whether it is used effectively is questionable, but I think the additional degree of freedom is nice.
If you aren't around a POV character in the books the outcome for a character can be frustratingly ambiguous, even if they are important. Maybe this is the beauty of it. But I like resolution.
Spoiler:
What would give the audience more satisfaction isn't what's right for the story. I'm not talking about the success of the show and its ability to draw a rating. I'm talking about the craft of storytelling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickrb
Anyone can say 'Well, HBO is making money so STFU' but fuck that. How does HBO making money benefit me or the integrity of the narrative? It's the same argument as with comics. They tell shit stories but they sell and then people like to argue that because it made money, it was the right decision. No, it was the right BUSINESS decision. It's not even remotely the same thing.
Sandor isn't a character as much as he's a plot point. What happened to him may endear him to audiences, may make him their 'favorite character' or whatever else they want to call him, but the tragedy of his life isn't the story. It's simply there to give the character a tortured past that explains why he is the way he is and to serve as a maturing element for Sansa and Arya.
We know everything we need to know about Sandor. We knew everything we needed to know about Robb. Martin has said that he wishes he would have thought about doing some Robb POV chapters in retrospect, but whose to say that the story would have turned out the same way had he done that? Whose to say it would be better or worse?
I am not going to sit here and say 'the books are perfect' because they're not. But there is a lot in there that isn't making it onto the TV show that is better than some of the stuff they've chosen to do.
It's like Norton said. TV is a different medium and the show runners have to include mor eof what they think will keep people watching. It would just be nice for them to take a look at the books again and not lose sight of what's going on.
The show feels, and this is just my pure idle speculation, like the show runners have chosen to execute the vision in a way that is equal parts what they like about the story and what HBO mandates they focus on. Martin gets to hang around and be involved, but I highly doubt he'd be able to say or do much if they decided to have Arya learn a spell that allowed her to become fifty feet tall and stomp King's Landing to ruins underfoot.
The TV show is nice. I enjoy it. But as a fan of the series, I feel it could still better while still satisfying HBO's mandates.
The highlighted point is what I was emphasizing- so many of the non-POV characters are treated like plot pivot points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiso
The story is the beautiful rich tapestry of characters.
Isn't part of the point of reading a book to find out what happens to the characters?
If he wants to make me love a character and then kill them off- thats great. But to make me love a character, read thousands of pages, and then make it totally ambiguous what happened to them… its an order of magnitude more frustrating.
Knock on wood and I wish him the best, but looking at Martin, his age, and his output rate the only resolution we may get to this story is through the show.
I boldfaced your comment because that's what I was initially addressing:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickrb
You are attributing more value to the character than is actually there. You are the one, and audience members like you, that are saying "I love this character. I wish we saw more of him/her."
And it's great that, as fans, you get attached to those characters.
But that's where fans lose perspective. That's where their sensibilities start to affect their ability to objectively view the narrative and the story that's actually being told.
People want to like Sandor Cleggane, but he is not a main character of the story Martin is telling. He has just enough background and personality move Arya's narrative along in a believable and interesting way. He's a soundboard for her maturation. He's not someone the story's about. You get everything you need, everything that makes him cool, in the framework of the story. Fans asking for more are letting their own fan sensibilities cloud their ability to see the story for what it is.
I don't disagree with your analysis. I think we are saying some of the same things but I am in the trees and you are looking at the forest.
My original point was that sometimes the non-POV characters are second class citizens in the books, but that the show is not restricted by this storytelling boundary condition.
Well, they really ARE second class citizens. The story, the fundamental building blocks of the saga, just aren't about them. They're just there to help move things along.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickrb
There is a reason they are secondary characters, and that means they just don't matter as much. They only hold equal value in the fans' hearts. Martin may enjoy expanding on these characters to give the world and its character dynamics a more interesting dimension, but they're not the story and that is not the story that the source is telling.
I don't mind the tV show's expansion of secondary characters until it fucks with the stories of the important characters and I see the important characters being shoved to the side so that we can watch Oberyn Martell chew scenery with his illegitimate companion and their forty whores. Valuable minutes in an already shorter than average per episode season all gone to waste so HBO can fill a tit quota.
Tit quota - fine, I agree. But Oberyn Martell is one of the most badass and interesting characters in the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiso
Anyway, I don't see how the show can pack all of the necessary events into this last episode, they are either gonna do a really cursory job or save some things for next season.
Why do people say things like Oberyn was so badass, or interesting? I thought he was okay. The show made him look cooler because Pedro played his role well. Otherwise, he's just a typical Dornishman, whose purpose was just to inflict deadly wounds on a man for fucking the Dornish woman he loved, so hard that she split in half.
This is why I say people attribute storyline value to characters because they like them, not because that value exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Wasabi
It's similar to the phenomenon that has some Star Wars fans sucking Boba Fett's dick. Although it's not completely identical; characters like Oberyn Martell and Sandor Cleggane affect the story simply by being who they are more than Boba ever affected Star Wars.
I don't have a problem with people liking secondary characters. But they are secondary characters. They shouldn't be taking necessary minutes away from the characters that the story is really about.
The TV version of Bron is a PERFECT example of what a secondary character should be. Likeable, distinct, having his own life and occasionally coming in to the story when it seems like there's a good reason for him to have screen time.
Boba Fett was nothing more than a scheme to sell more toys.
I feel like everyone on the show is suddenly a secondary or tertiary character except for Grey Worm. sheesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiso
Almost an hour of bodies dropping.
Well that was entertaing.
nailed it.
It was rather boring. A bunch of random people killing each other before Jon Snow joins in. Next episode will be epic.
I expected them to tie up the loose ends in Kings Landing tonight, Wall shit Next week.
Episode 9 tends to be the episode where major characters get killed off.
Olly is a G
Too much Sam and Gilly (although I DO like them in the show.)
Not enough Ghost killing people and fighting beside Jon. HBO really needs to just spend the money and have Ghost in more shots with Jon. Fucking misers. Give us more of the cool shit.
Seeing the giants and the mastodon were awesome, and I think it played off very well in the TV setting. Seeing a few more of them would have been even more awe inspiring, but I think it was effective enough.
Scene with Gren and his men at the gate reciting their vows when the giant was rushing in was pretty awesome.
Scene with the anchor sweeping wildlings off the wall was amazing, probably the coolest single action shot in the whole episode. They really conveyed the weight and reach of that chain.
Ser Alliser Thorne was an oddly sympathetic character in this episode. I'm kind of glad for it. He admitted Jon was right about everything but he didn't turn into a big pussy at the end. He proved to the audience that despite how much of a hardass he was being to 'Lord Snow', there are reasons he believed what he believed and backed up his claims by showing his experience and intensity.
The kid killing Ygritte was a really nice surprise.
I'm glad Janos Slynt wasn't killed by some random wildling. When they showed him running away, I was expecting him to turn a corner and get gutted. Would have robbed the audience of a much cooler scene later on.
Jon Snow finally had his moment to shine, show what a bad ass swordsman he was, what a natural born leader he is and he showed that he actually learned from his near death at Crastor's Keep. Rather than fumble for a solution against the Thenn when he got disarmed, he improvised and won the fight.
Kit Harrington finally got a chance to do more than look glum and pout. He came across as an effective commander and skilled warrior in this episode. It was good that finally, four seasons in, the TV version figured out how to show the audience some of the qualities that book readers have been seeing about Jon from the very beginning. They need to keep it going with Jon and Kit.
Next week is going to be really packed. I am really pumped about this show for the first time this year. I hope its an extended episode, but even if it's not it'
s going to fly by really, really fast.
There is still a lot of siege left before this book concludes, so I figure Jon will kept on ice until next year. I don't know what the general reaction was, but I feel like the general audience wants more courtesans, soft porn, and flowery language. There was no way the finale cannot end the way, uh, Taiso and I expect it to.
I pray that they don't waste any more time with Ramsey and Reek. Leave that shit for the middle of next year.
After how the episode ended with a fade to white, I presumed that was it for the north this year but the previews of the next episode showed Jon talking to Manse Rayder, so I have to presume we're not done with Lord Snow this season yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Wasabi
I agree. No more Ramsay and Theon. It would be such a waste of valuable time to show them. What they end up doing would be a GREAT opening for next year, though.
I'm expecting the last episode to have all of this:
Jon
Arya
Tyrion
Daenerys
I expect we'll see a bit of Stannis and I would be shocked if the season didn't end with a crossbow and a gold chain.
I would like to see the episode open with Tyrion, giving him a chance to reflect his folly of putting his life in the hands of a snake.
That would make the ending resonate even stronger, having ones life in the hands of an imp.
the worst paced episode in the entire series, compensated by key highlight moments. Still it ended up becoming a metaphor for Tywin's scene.
Season 4 finale was more interested in setting up season 5 than in covering all of the important events of the third book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Wasabi
One HUGE plot point that was missed:
Spoiler:
Martin wouldn't have introduced that plot point unless it was going to be relevant to the storyline. I think it would have been a much better ending.
I enjoyed the deviations from the book in terms of the scene with the Green Man and also the difference in the resolution of the Hound storyline. They were fun to watch.
I think they were interesting, but painful to watch. I kept feeling that "valuable time is leaving, and never coming back!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiso
And this kept happening scene to scene. So much, just terrible, terrible directing. Visionless, with no sense of economy.
Spoiler:
So many episodes this season ended at the 53 or 54 minute mark. Why? The writers could have used that time to develop Jon (which is still sorely needed-anybody that knows the story just KNOWS this) or have the conversation Tyrion and Jamie had about his first wife (another massive plot element that was missing), Cold Hands, etc.
This show is still enjoyable to watch, but too many components of the essential storyline are still not being given the time they need on screen to be established. It's like they're building a jet fighter off of a blueprint but they're leaving out important parts in order to make the thing look prettier and fool the generals in charge of approving the project funding. They need to get back to putting in the fundamental elements of the story.
I could not agree more with you about Cersei in this season. So many of her scenes were pointless, and only in there because the audience likes drama. This show is dangerously close to becoming something different, and lesser, than the source material.
Didn't Arya's Scene with Brianne cover her scene with Cat?
No. In fact, I have no idea how anyone that knows the story can draw this correlation.Quote:
Originally Posted by norton9478
I guess they are saving Stoneheart and the Lord Commander for later.
Hopefully Jojen doesn't turn out to be important in the story. I don't understand killing him off needlessly. Aren't they way ahead with this storyline? Gonna start moving beyond the material in the books here. And this is the material I least trust the show with.
I actually liked the "As Seen on TV" Sandor vs. Brienne battle.
I enjoyed it too and I think it was important to portray the characters having a confrontation because it makes them seem less idle in the TV version. Both Brienne and Sandor had a ton of pointless scenes in this season. There was still so much they could have done in pulling from the books, and the show meandered quite a bit this season. Again, the shorter episode length is boggling, considering there were a number of key events that could have been inserted in those unused minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickrb
I just kept waiting for LS even in the final seconds on the show. It would have been a nice bone for the show to throw to the book readers and would have given TV-only fans a "WTF?" moment and hooked them for next season.
I just hope LS makes the cut to TV or I'll be super pissed.
Is there a way to get a good quality file of Season 4? I have purchased the DVD's up to season 3 but 4 doesn't come out until next year and I don't want to wait that long. Can't believe how stupid they are, the show is done, release the fucking DVD the next week!!!
I have been looking for torrents but they all seem to be shit quality.
Attachment 17958
"Duuuuuude..."
The way the actor screamed, too. God. To see such a suave and cool character go out like that.
This is definitely my favorite season since the first.
Season 4 was ridiculous but too light on the Stannis, next season should fix that.Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneSage
I do not care for Stannis in the slightest. His right hand man is cool, but not Stannis. So I was OK with that.
I'm curious what will be done with Bran. The actor is growing up quickly, faster than Joffrey did.
Difference between season 1 Bran and season 4 is ridiculous, puberty is a bitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneSage
My love for Stannis came from this scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKkdYDZcW0M
I like to pretend that Stanis is being played by Jason Staitham.
Bran won't need an actor soon, so don't worry.
You're like my wife, snarky semi-spoilers always fly when I'm trying to watch. Damn book readers. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Wasabi
Self-ban plz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Wasabi
Have they started filming the next season yet?
Game of saving throws.
You blow and you're a connoisseur of all things shit. Including your own recycled posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefy Hits
Explain why you keep saying this stupid shit every 4 pages or stop posting in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefy Hits
Why do you call this Game of Saving Throws.
Make me a believer or admit you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Waiting.
Greg, you're out of your element.
The part in season 4 when the kind, religious man gives The Hound and Arya shelter is so important to the central theme of GOT, which is doing whatever the hell you have to do to stay alive and get ahead.
Look at how The Hound repaid the man's kindness, by knocking his ass down. This is how it works in their world. Use your connections to make it and then throw the person under the car when they're of no use to you.
And I feel like it's something people can learn from in real life, too. Especially when it comes to the work environment and climbing the corporate ladder.
Out of all the scenes throughout season 4, that part stuck with me the most.
Well aside from Oberyn getting his eyes gouged and skull exploded.
Speaking of, did anyone else get a Juuza/Raoh vibe from that fight? Except if Raoh had enough of Juuza's shit and straight up exploded his skull, I mean.
Also anyone who thinks wasabi spoiled anything, come on. The man in the tree said he was going to fly, it's obvious there'll be more animal controlling from now on.
Game of recycled jokes.
Maybe he's trying to secure his place in the market forums. You don't get 14000 posts by not spamming every thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiso