Really? Wow. I can honestly say I've never heard that one before.Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
Why not? It seems I have a lot more to learn about your beliefs than I thought.
Really? Wow. I can honestly say I've never heard that one before.Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
Why not? It seems I have a lot more to learn about your beliefs than I thought.
In a nut shell since this thread can last forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny
What I believe and it's Bible based, not my personal opinion.
God created the earth.
Created Adam and Eve.
Paradise and humans living forever was God's original purpose.
They Sinned...thats why we die.
The first prophecy in Genesis.
The Seed (Jesus) will get bruised in the heal, but the seed will bruise him (Satan) in the head.
Instruction was given for our benefit and to learn lessons
Jesus was born
Preached
Then was killed on a Stake
Don't believe was crucified on a cross
Jesus went to Heaven
Ok...here's the stuff that makes people think we are crazy and a cult even though it's in the Bible
Satan was cast out of Heaven and now causes havoc on the earth...more so than he did in the past
He influences all badness...man still has free will
We never blame God for badness
When Armageddon comes
Satan will be locked up for 1000 years and the earth's restoration will begin
If I died before all this occurred then I will be resurrected not go to Heaven
The righteous and unrighteous will be resurrected and given a second chance
Once he's released everyone who takes his side will be gone and Satan will follow and be done away with forever
Satan will be thrown into a lake of fire (not a literal one on earth :D )
The prophecy in Genesis will be fulfilled
Those who die during Armageddon will not return
Everyone else will live forever on a paradise earth
The 144,000 will rule with Jesus in heaven and take care of the earth
God's original purpose
I left some out...but thats most of it.
JW's in a nutshell
That sounds super and everything, but in the second 'original purpose' paradise, will there not be apples? Will there not be free will? What stops the entire cycle from beginning all over again?Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
So let me get this straight, you reject the "dogma of man" but latch onto interpretations of the old Testament as a metaphor for the birth of Jesus written in the Middle Ages?
Do you think the snake in the Garden was Satan too?
Apples never mentioned in the Bible. Also a medieval construct.Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthtownKid
Yeah, I know. But I say apples for convenience, since that is what most people are familiar with. Question stands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesagwa
apples...apples specifically were never mentionedQuote:
Originally Posted by SouthtownKid
no one knows whats gonna happened after everything is fulfilled
All I know...if I'm reborn perfect, I'm gonna live my life and not mess it up...Satan won't be around to influence people anymore
Besides Nes's and STK's questions, what do you think will happen to you when you die, then? Is it 144,000 go to heaven and it's hell for everyone else, or is there a third option? If so, what is it? What is it supposed to be like? And what makes the 144,000 so special, anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
Did you read his post carefully?Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny
of course...the Bible called him a serpentQuote:
Originally Posted by Nesagwa
It sounds like you are kind of waffling on the free will thing. If you mean people will be incapable of making bad choices because satan won't be influencing them, it makes it sound like free will was always illusory.Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
When I die...I'm dead...think of it as a deep sleepQuote:
Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny
No...no one is going to Hell
Whats makes the 144,000 so special...Chosen by God...I don't know...you will have to ask God.
He said the 144,000 go to heaven to help run things, kind of like a student government, while everyone else stays on the new earth and lives forever. This is something I hadn't been familiar with before, either. Lots I don't know about all the various sects' individual beliefs out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny
I was also interested in the reincarnation angle if you die before the apocalypse thing. Like they are mixing a pinch of Hinduism in there or something.
Your just upset because you want to do or be bad and you can't comprehend the idea of being good. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthtownKid
Crack open your old Testament and show me where it says that snake was specifically Satan.Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
References to the new Testament do not count.
The opposite, really. But forever is a long time to have to keep up a perfect streak.Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
I was raised a Catholic and started attending various Christian Churches with my mom as a teenager...no one would study directly from the Bible with me...Pastors and Priests expected me to believe all their teaching (even though different from each other) and that pissed me off. (There is a scripture in the Bible encouraging us to question religious leaders - theirs nothing wrong with it)Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthtownKid
I came across the Witnesses and everything I learned from the Bible contradicted what I was taught as a kid and a young adult...blew me away. Heaven, Hell, Idolatry, Spiritism...my family has been affected by certain spiritistic beliefs and lets say it's no joke. I feel like I am no longer in spiritual darkness and have a big weight off my shoulder...I sleep better at night and no longer fear Satan, but still know what he is capable of.
I am far from perfect and have guilty pleasures (videogames and neo-geo.com)
Sounds cheesey, but if what I am learning is false...at least I stay out of trouble and don't contribute to whats bad about this world.
I'm a family man who takes care of his own and when the crap hits the fan I won't let the Man and or Satan take me down.
The fact that Witnesses don't get paid to preach also attracted me to them. Our Elders who have nice cars don't pay them off with church member donations. They have jobs or are old retired men. Our traveling overseers get help with room and board, but don't get a check for preaching.
Ok, I see some major differences in the way JW's believe here.
I was with you until here. Why do people make up stuff when it is clearly explained in the Bible? Crucifixion was a common form of Roman capital punishment. Where did the stake idea come from?Quote:
Originally Posted by zapistab
You missed the part where Jesus spent 3 days in the heart of the earth ministering to the righteous who were held there until his arrival. Then he was resurrected after 3 days and ascended into heaven.Quote:
Don't believe was crucified on a cross
Jesus went to Heaven
Ok, you're doing good here until...Quote:
Ok...here's the stuff that makes people think we are crazy and a cult even though it's in the Bible
Satan was cast out of Heaven and now causes havoc on the earth...more so than he did in the past
He influences all badness...man still has free will
We never blame God for badness
When Armageddon comes
Satan will be locked up for 1000 years and the earth's restoration will begin
Ok, first of all, the 144,000 that are mentioned in the Bible are clearly identified as Jews who will be 'sealed' until the end, to witness to the world of God's impending return.Quote:
If I died before all this occurred then I will be resurrected not go to Heaven
The righteous and unrighteous will be resurrected and given a second chance
Once he's released everyone who takes his side will be gone and Satan will follow and be done away with forever
Satan will be thrown into a lake of fire (not a literal one on earth )
The prophecy in Genesis will be fulfilled
Those who die during Armageddon will not return
Everyone else will live forever on a paradise earth
The 144,000 will rule with Jesus in heaven and take care of the earth
God's original purpose
The surviving righteous people of the 'end times' will be part of the Millennial Kingdom. The believers will not be resurrected in their old bodies, but will be granted new bodies... like Jesus had when he was resurrected (walking through walls, instantaneous travel, etc. :p ). The believers will help rule in the Millennial Kingdom.
The Earth is not the final disposition of man. After the 1,000 years and Satan and the final group of unrighteous people are finally dealt with, a New Jerusalem will be constructed after the old universe 'burns with a fervent heat'.
The 'Lake of Fire' is Satan's & the fallen angels final disposition, and 'outer darkness' is reserved for the unrighteous, where 'there is much weeping and gnashing of teeth', and 'the canker worm dieth not'.
It's unfortunate at how much division there is on God's word.
Yeah, these guys are going to think we're crazy.
Pro wrestling doesn't have as many shifting alliances as this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Blitz
head just explodedQuote:
Originally Posted by Billy Blitz
aw man, what a fun post from ki_atsushi, as he laid the holy smack down.
Billy Blitz is ki_atsushi? I can't keep up with this stuff.
lol, I know, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthtownKid
That should've been rephrased.
As I said in my post, it's a shame there's so much division between people on God's word. Nothing against Zapistab personally, I just wanted to contrast what I believe with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by StickmanLoser
I don't believe the Bible is allegorical, except where obviously so. It explains itself.
Another AWESOME statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Blitz
What I mean by that is that Jesus spoke in parables and such (and explained it afterwards too, no room for crazy interpretation), and the rest of the Bible is meant to be taken literally. This is my biggest gripe with a lot of denominations, they too believe it's one big allegory... and to that I say "What is there to believe in, then?"Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthtownKid
Good points...be back tomorrow...After 3:00 p.m. pacific time I get busy at work.
All right, I'll bite. How do you feel about the issues of slavery and stoning then? If the Bible is the literal truth and word of god, it should be fine, right? Or is it just a parable? I don't see how you can have it both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Blitz
yeah... ki_atsushi is a better name. Sometimes people can't and shouldn't recreate themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthtownKid
That said, Mike Shagohod is a crappy name change.
Slavery in Israel wasn't the same as American slavery.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny
In Israel back in those times, if you fell into debt you couldn't pay off you sold yourself into slavery for a pre-determined period of time, after which you're debts were considered paid in full. No one was taken into slavery by force.
Which is where the story of the dulos (bond servant) came from. A bond servant is one who has completed their time as an indentured servant, and willingly chooses to stay a servant to his/her master. As a sign of this, an awl is thrust through his/her ear and a ring inserted so people are aware of their status as a bond servant.
Oops, forgot to respond to the stoning part. Stoning was traditionally for blasphemy and adultery.
That was their death penalty. Our death penalty is lethal injection. Meh, personally I'm on the fence about giving people the death penalty, but it's been around forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Blitz
Those are pretty non-committal answers (and thanks, by the way, for the history lesson I didn't need — I was aware of what you told me already).Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Blitz
You didn't really answer the question. Do you think it should be permissible to keep slaves and stone people to death? Yes or no.
Those aren't really proper yes or no questions without some context.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny
In the context of American slavery, no. In Biblical context, personally if someone owed me money and had no way to pay me back other than physical labor, sure.
And like I said, I'm on the fence about capital punishment. I say getting rid of the bad eggs is a good thing, however it is kinda the easy way out for them, isn't it? It would be a greater punishment to let them rot in a 5x7 for the rest of their life. But if you keep them in jail for life, it's a huge burden on the tax payers. But I guess if it came down to it, yes.
These are pretty complex topics for simple yes or no answers, bud. :shame:
All right, I'll take that as a yes on both counts.
Nice dodge on the slavery thing by the way. "I, uh, don't mean slaves like we did in America! I'd totally be nice to my slaves."
Or, for planting two types of crops in the same field (crop rotation is of the devil!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Blitz
I was giving you info in a nutshell....I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or start a debate...just sharing my faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Blitz
The original greek translation was stake (The cross idea was created by man) Side note: my mom (not a JW) went to Israel this summer and even the tour guide told them Jesus was killed on a stake not a cross - she's blows it off and doesn't talk about it - Ha Ha The cross idea is huge, especially for catholics, but they don't want to hear it. People are afraid of change or admit their teachings are false.
So...the scripture in Matthew indicating the Good News will be preached then the end will come is referring to the 144,000...hmm. Your point regarding the 144,000 doesn't flow with the rest of the scriptures.
New Kingdom (Heaven - it was already cleansed when Satan was kicked out to cause trouble on earth)
New Jerusalem is the new earth...yes...when Satan and his demons are destroyed...the earth wasn't created for nothing
The Bible says there is gonna be a lot of division.
You are 100% sure and so I am...we are wasting each others time
The definition of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
Yeah, but several people are wrong :p --but really, who cares? It doesn't matter in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryMasters
Hey, I found it pretty interesting to find out that we have two members that basically condone slavery. Surprised, too. I thought Christians are supposed to be a loving people, after all.
Your still dwelling on that...:scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny
I think he's waiting to be made an example of.Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
It brings up a valid questionQuote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
Why didn't Jesus preach against slavery?
Because Slavery wasn't an issue. Slaves were treated like family. People were always treated badly in general, but Romans and Egyptians were the ones who abused their slaves. Jesus wasn't a supporter of Rome or Egypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by wasabi
Stop allowing hollywood and the history channel influence your thinking.
Obviously slaves existed throughout the bible, but do you really think that they were treated like family? Do you think that slaves could whip their masters, and force their masters' wives to lie with them and bear their children? Come on, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
The bible doesn't have any beef with slavery. It's sad.
What, you're surprised? It's a pretty hot button issue, especially in America.Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
Plus wasabi is right. It's a pretty clear contradiction to me.
This is my point: You'd rather defend the institution of slavery and attempt to justify it somehow (really! it was okay!) than say that the Bible might have gotten something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatistab
That is the sum total of my point. And I think it's utterly deplorable. To be perfectly frank, I think it reveals you as someone of poor moral character.
And get the fuck out of here with your 'Hollywood' and 'History Channel' shit. Slavery is slavery. It's fucking wrong, and it always will be. In no circumstances whatsoever is it morally permissible. Ever!
Ok...you guys are correct and I am wrong...since I have faith in the Bible then I support Slavery...I'm gonna discuss with my wife...we need a slave. Raising a family makes it difficult to keep the house clean all the time. A slave will resolve that issue.
I want to stop looking at this thread, but I can't. It's like, a paradigm or something.
I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm just saying that maybe your views on the Bible could use some further contemplation, if nothing else. Have you ever thought about this before? Do you agree with the premise that slavery is always wrong? These are important questions.
JW's are really devout, because those watchtowers have saints with loaded bolt action rifles. Any disagreement results in fierce reign down style mafia punishment, in light of wahabi upper class muslim style tyranny.
Nah, seriously...
My view? All scripture is metaphorical leading of right and wrong. It is a simplicity. Religion has been corrupted due to the many mutated versions of everything.
Trying to be more faithful and devout does not secure you more then any other.. In some ways I agree about all people being leveled in dust, a Zoroastrian belief, you are as vulnerable and ready to be destroyed as anyone else.
Even if nothing in religion is true, a lot of good can be had from the lessons of jesus, guru nanak, muhammed, etc. Everything is corrupted by varying creativity from humans in its issue of interpretation, which if lead by emotions on a personal level is easily modified. In fact, this corruption itself is what makes it special, the fact we do not know. Where it goes wrong is judging and pushing others out. This is why I'm critical of JW's and Christians a lot of the time. This mentality of '1st in line' believers. Its not even good. Its a invisible caste system.. Its actually evil on a true level.
Think about it, if god is all knowing and all powerful, and he loves you, why does not believing doom a person? Not believing is a totally normal and positive experience to being human. I personally don't feel a god would want to be cared about or worshiped in that way. Nothing about it makes sense. Its a diffusion of responsibility. Submission to Christ is in its purist form should be submission to just being a good person. Regardless of where we exist in death or on what metaphysical level. Earth is not endless suffering.
I'm really skeptical of new religions that pop up, and the people who most believe judge others. Its not hypocritical to point out christian/JW's are notorious for this, because they are, and being a exception to the rule doesn't make it less true.