Basic Religion Test Stumps Many Americans [part 4281 in "Our Glorious Nation"]

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Originally Posted by StickmanLoser

But beliefs, religious or otherwise have an underpinning that is based purely on personal choice. You can't claim that your beliefs come only from the bible, because you have made an extra-biblical decision that the bible is inerrant. (And of course if the assertion were in the bible, you still at one point chose to make a jump into the logic-loop.) A person similarly chooses, prior to becoming one, that he will embrace materialism.

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*sigh*

Yes, of course that's true. Obviously I've chosen to live my life based on the tenets of science.

But religious faith, as our friend zapatistab has so adroitly demonstrated, is about ignoring facts, not observing them.

As I've said before, I look around at the world and I take what I've learned and a draw a conclusion. Faith doesn't enter into it. The principles I believe in are tested, verified, and, in the end, provable. When I find that I've been wrong about something, I change my mind.

That's not how the religious mind works. They believe what they believe because that's what they've been told. They don't change their minds (or if they do, they tend to abandon their faith in the process).

Clearly it's in the same ballpark, religious belief and belief in science. Both views are about personal philosophy.

But the comparison ends there, because a scientific person and a religious person aren't motivated by the same factors, they don't draw the same conclusions, they don't take the same route to gain the knowledge they have, and they have an entirely different way of testing and proving their beliefs.

In my book, that's not the same thing at all. If you really want to compare me to zapatistab, I'm going to take it as an insult, that's all there is to it.

P.S. I didn't decide the Bible isn't inerrant. Whatever I believe has nothing to do with the veracity of that tome. The Bible isn't inerrant, and demonstrably so. Do you understand what I'm saying? What I have isn't anti-faith, or some other kind of faith, or whatever. What I have is reason. That's not the same thing! Fuck me, why do I have to explain this.

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Originally Posted by zapatistab

Slaves in Bible times weren't abused (unless you were Roman) ...they were like maids and nanny's. As far as stoning is concerned...I don't recall people getting stoned and God saying it was OK...If your wife cheated on you...it was OK to divorce her in God's eye's not stone her...

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Slaves didn't write historical texts so of course they weren't abused by their owners. This was all part of god's plan.

Except circumcisions. God wanted people to have circumcisions because he realized he didn't like his original design for penises. But he's still infallable.

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Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny

As I've said before, I look around at the world and I take what I've perceived and a draw a conclusion... I judge the principles I believe in to be tested, verified, and, in the end, provable. When I decide that I've been wrong about something, I change my mind.

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Fixed, but with love. <3

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Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny

That's not how the religious mind works. They believe what they believe because that's what they've been told. They don't change their minds (or if they do, they tend to abandon their faith in the process).

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And again with the sweeping (and condescending) generalizations.

What is crazy, Ninny (although you probably have me on ignore by this point), is that if you were to go back and read through this thread objectively, as if you weren't one of the posters involved and didn't have a stake in either side of the discussion, you'd probably see that you've been coming off as the most closed-minded and insulting person in the entire thread.

Every single post you made reads like "Here is a list of reasons why I am not as fucking stupid as you, you slack-jawed, superstitious, primitive screwhead moron." Which you then follow up with a "I'm just trying to understand you" as if that excuses all. You're like Ricky Bobby saying "with all due respect" at the end of a string of insults.

For fuck's sake, the JWs in this thread come off as way more easy-going, laid back and 'live-and-let-live' than you do. They have also handled differing opinions and insults to their opinions WAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY better than you have. Way fucking better. What does that tell you? Because that shouldn't be happening.

With all due respect; I'm just trying to understand you.

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Originally Posted by SouthtownKid

primitive screwhead

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http://static.gamesradar.com/images/...icle_image.jpg

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Originally Posted by SouthtownKid

What is crazy, Ninny (although you probably have me on ignore by this point), is that if you were to go back and read through this thread objectively, as if you weren't one of the posters involved and didn't have a stake in either side of the discussion, you'd probably see that you've been coming off as the most closed-minded and insulting person in the entire thread.

Every single post you made reads like "Here is a list of reasons why I am not as fucking stupid as you, you slack-jawed, superstitious, primitive screwhead moron." Which you then follow up with a "I'm just trying to understand you" as if that excuses all. You're like Ricky Bobby saying "with all due respect" at the end of a string of insults.

For fuck's sake, the JWs in this thread come off as way more easy-going, laid back and 'live-and-let-live' than you do. They have also handled differing opinions and insults to their opinions WAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY better than you have. Way fucking better. What does that tell you? Because that shouldn't be happening.

With all due respect; I'm just trying to understand you.

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You've made two incorrect assumptions: First, that I have you on ignore. I was just ignoring you. Not the same — though I'm expecting 20 posts to follow on why they're exactly the same, because that seems to be how you think.

Second, that I care about what you think of me. If you think I'm a close-minded jerk, I don't give a flying fuck. Go ahead and think whatever you want.

I already said in this very thread that I know I seldom come off very well in these things. Why, do you think, would I carry on anyway? Clearly I wouldn't if that meant anything to me.

So go ahead and take all your incorrect assumptions (which are certainly not limited to the post I quoted), and shove 'em up your ass. Talking with you has been a waste of my time. With all due respect.

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Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny

Second, that I care about what you think of me. If you think I'm a close-minded jerk, I don't give a flying fuck. Go ahead and think whatever you want.

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Leaving aside everything else for a while, I didn't say I thought you were one, and in fact purposely worded the post to avoid saying that. Just that you've been coming of as one here. Anyhow, just forget it. If you're ever in L.A., let me know and you can come by and sock me in the eye one time and maybe things can go back to normal.

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Originally Posted by genjiglove

http://static.gamesradar.com/images/...icle_image.jpg

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if no one else says it I will, I noticed teh funnay.

This..... This is my BOOMSTICK

I usually go head first into topics like these but It's definitely more fun to act an ass and post stupid replies and pictures.

I just had a minor skirmish w/my grandmother yesterday morning about my severe lack of church attendance and I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that she would fail even the 6 sample questions in the article.

No church? No problem for this guy.

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Originally Posted by SPINMASTER X

I usually go head first into topics like these but It's definitely more fun to act an ass and post stupid replies and pictures.

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Well I'll admit I got a bit annoyed, but I liked the lively debate too. For me the high point was finding out that zapatistab doesn't think slavery is such a bad thing. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one.

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Originally Posted by SPINMASTER X

I usually go head first into topics like these but It's definitely more fun to act an ass and post stupid replies and pictures.

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http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/v...o1/25k67hv.gif

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Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny

As for the stoning, I guess you'll have to take my word for it, but it's in there. I've read the quote. I forget where it's from though.

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I'm going to stay mostly out of this since I've no desire to get to into this yet again, but I'll help you out with this one.

Leviticus is my absolute favorite book of the Old Testament because it is the most full of hypocrisy when put into modern perspective and is a great book to reference as an atheist making a case against religion. I like the Old Testament because it encompasses all three of the world's largest monotheistic religions, so therefore the hypocrisy applies to all of them when painting with a broad brush, which most of these discussions do. I'm not a New Testament guy :emb:

The quotes you're looking for are.

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"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him." - Leviticus 24:16

"Man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:27

"Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones." - Leviticus 20:2

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/re-shelves his bible (I own 3 actually)

Leviticus is a great book. As a fellow atheist I recommend you arm yourself with its knowledge.

Read the book of Ruth as well, it's actually really good. It's a short read too, so if you're averse to reading religious scripture because of your atheist beliefs it won't be too big of a chore.

Carry on, this thread is pretty good reading.

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Originally Posted by qube

Carry on, this thread is pretty good reading.

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Ah man, where have you been? You missed out on a choice opportunity a little while back... :p

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Originally Posted by SouthtownKid

For fuck's sake, the JWs in this thread come off as way more easy-going, laid back and 'live-and-let-live' than you do. They have also handled differing opinions and insults to their opinions WAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY better than you have. Way fucking better. What does that tell you? Because that shouldn't be happening.

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Thing is that we have two JWs who are genuinely cool guys here who can be civil more than anyone else. And it's hard to hate them because they're cool. That doesn't mean that they aren't batshit crazy. I really love zapatistab (for being a good member here), but the stuff about blood transfusions is illogical. His reasoning was wacky. And it's not something he came up with, but something that some dude (Russell) came up with. That dude was like L Ron. Hubbard. The dude basically came up with a fear mongering apocalypse scenario that would make Karl Rove cream his pleats.

I get really frustrated with clients sometimes. When my clients are incompetent and can't use their brains to do the simple tasks I ask of them to save their own asses - to just make things right for themselves. But then they can do other stuff like reciting Eminem lyrics, or bible passages. Really. Some people are just nuts. And it drives me nuts.

So when I see people in this thread trying hard to crack these nuts, I empathize. They're basically trying to send lumber upstream in explaining things to people who are brainwashed into believing nonsense. PS, that include you ki_atsushi. Deep down, even you know there's problems with your religion.

The worst thing about ng.c is when people stop caring enough to help break down the walls of ridiculousness in our fellow members, because we heckle each other into a middle line attitude. The even keel is great in real life where people can't handle confrontation, but here we have potential to open people's eyes to things, on their own terms, at their own reading pace.

@heartless - don't stop believing. hold on to that feeling.

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Originally Posted by qube

I'm going to stay mostly out of this since I've no desire to get to into this yet again, but I'll help you out with this one.

Leviticus is my absolute favorite book of the Old Testament because it is the most full of hypocrisy when put into modern perspective and is a great book to reference as an atheist making a case against religion. I like the Old Testament because it encompasses all three of the world's largest monotheistic religions, so therefore the hypocrisy applies to all of them when painting with a broad brush, which most of these discussions do. I'm not a New Testament guy :emb:

The quotes you're looking for are.



/re-shelves his bible (I own 3 actually)

Leviticus is a great book. As a fellow atheist I recommend you arm yourself with its knowledge.

Read the book of Ruth as well, it's actually really good. It's a short read too, so if you're averse to reading religious scripture because of your atheist beliefs it won't be too big of a chore.

Carry on, this thread is pretty good reading.

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Ruth is nice because it's just a nice story about the value of charity without ending in smiting because of a technicality in the rules like just about every other book in the old testament. Kind of an odd book surrounded by lists of Judges and what they did and Samuel..... which is also pretty boring.

Song of Solomon is another funny one. The different interpretations of it trying to explain away all the blatant sexual imagery are hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Nesagwa

Ruth is nice because it's just a nice story about the value of charity without ending in smiting because of a technicality in the rules like just about every other book in the old testament.

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Like an ancient times version of Tales From the Crypt.

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Originally Posted by wasabi

Thing is that we have two JWs who are genuinely cool guys here who can be civil more than anyone else. And it's hard to hate them because they're cool. That doesn't mean that they aren't batshit crazy. I really love zapatistab (for being a good member here), but the stuff about blood transfusions is illogical. His reasoning was wacky. And it's not something he came up with, but something that some dude (Russell) came up with. That dude was like L Ron. Hubbard. The dude basically came up with a fear mongering apocalypse scenario that would make Karl Rove cream his pleats.

I get really frustrated with clients sometimes. When my clients are incompetent and can't use their brains to do the simple tasks I ask of them to save their own asses - to just make things right for themselves. But then they can do other stuff like reciting Eminem lyrics, or bible passages. Really. Some people are just nuts. And it drives me nuts.

So when I see people in this thread trying hard to crack these nuts, I empathize. They're basically trying to send lumber upstream in explaining things to people who are brainwashed into believing nonsense. PS, that include you ki_atsushi. Deep down, even you know there's problems with your religion.

The worst thing about ng.c is when people stop caring enough to help break down the walls of ridiculousness in our fellow members, because we heckle each other into a middle line attitude. The even keel is great in real life where people can't handle confrontation, but here we have potential to open people's eyes to things, on their own terms, at their own reading pace.

@heartless - don't stop believing. hold on to that feeling.

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Yeah. Like I said, despite my brashness and loudmouth attitude, I don't think that religious people are inherently stupid/evil/whatever. I think some of their beliefs are clearly kind of nuts (the blood transfusion thing is a good example), but that's it.

I don't even know if I'd call it an attempt to 'crack those nuts'. Like I said, for me, the debate is its own reward. When I was asking questions of zapatistab, it wasn't because I wanted to mock him, it was because I wanted to know the answer. And if nothing else, he did indeed come off as a decent guy.

Now, of course I'm dismissive of religious people's beliefs, and of course my tone is usually far from respectful. But I try to avoid asking questions I don't want to hear the answers to.

Naturally I reserve the right to maintain a haughty attitude the whole time. I'm open to having my mind changed and my ideas challenged, but that doesn't mean I'm not confident in their veracity as of right now. :smirk:

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Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny

Yeah. Like I said, despite my brashness and loudmouth attitude, I don't think that religious people are inherently stupid/evil/whatever. I think some of their beliefs are clearly kind of nuts (the blood transfusion thing is a good example), but that's it.

I don't even know if I'd call it an attempt to 'crack those nuts'. Like I said, for me, the debate is its own reward. When I was asking questions of zapatistab, it wasn't because I wanted to mock him, it was because I wanted to know the answer. And if nothing else, he did indeed come off as a decent guy.

Now, of course I'm dismissive of religious people's beliefs, and of course my tone is usually far from respectful. But I try to avoid asking questions I don't want to hear the answers to.

Naturally I reserve the right to maintain a haughty attitude the whole time. I'm open to having my mind changed and my ideas challenged, but that doesn't mean I'm not confident in their veracity as of right now. :smirk:

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Dude, if someone could prove to me that vampires and werewolves do not exist, I'd be willing to change my stance. But as far as I am concerned, you can't prove that they don't exist. Therefore they do exist.

TEAM JACOB 4 EVVAAAAHHHH!!!!

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Originally Posted by wasabi

Dude, if someone could prove to me that vampires and werewolves do not exist, I'd be willing to change my stance. But as far as I am concerned, you can't prove that they don't exist. Therefore they do exist.

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My god, you're right.

And Thor, Zeus and Osiris all must exist as well! You can't prove they don't!

Holy shit. You just blew my mind, buddy. :eek_2:

Similar to the Global Warming posts, the best part about this thread is watching those who are blind to their own behavior accuse others of doing that which they themselves are doing.

Global Warming is a myth and you'd be a fool and a communist to believe in it. :mad:

Reading all the various sides here has been thought-provoking and, in an interesting coincidence, the guest on last night's Daily Show provided the opportunity for a good back-and-forth on much of what has been discussed here regarding the issue of human values in science versus religion.

Video


So I guess once again, NG folks prove they're ahead of the curve on important topics of discussion.
:smirk:

I will say that the test was a bit biased.

Atheists are obsessed with Job.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...whores1hn5.jpg

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Originally Posted by norton9478

I will say that the test was a bit biased.

Atheists are obsessed with Job.

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can you blame them? I mean, that story makes God look like a total horsecunt faggot.

and it's in the bible.

No, I want you Christians, to explain that the sermon on the mount really means.

Despite being a hateful, bigoted, ignorant, militant agnostic, my reading of it basicly denounces the Scribes and Pharisees and Lawyers, which in the modern day analog would be; "Fundamentalist" Christians and/or "Born-Again" Christians. Both of whom interpret the strict word of the Old Testament (emphasis on everything from Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy: I.E. living as a Orthodox Jew (except when it's inconvenient, like, the ban on eating shellfish and wearing wool + cotton, or the Saturday sabbath), oh, and Revelations) as being more important than the spirit (forgiveness, brotherhood, and love for one's fellow man and God) of in the New Testament (I.E what Jesus actually friggen said; youknow, being...well... er... Christian, instead of an asshole).

I'm a fan of the Gospel of Professor Frank.

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Originally Posted by wasabi

can you blame them? I mean, that story makes God look like a total horsecunt faggot.

and it's in the bible.

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So by God allowing Satan to persecute Job to prove Satan wrong...makes God a faggot?

Job was rewarded in the end. Thats an interesting take on the situation.

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Originally Posted by NeoTheranthrope

No, I want you Christians, to explain that the sermon on the mount really means.

Despite being a hateful, bigoted, ignorant, militant agnostic, my reading of it basicly denounces the Scribes and Pharisees and Lawyers, which in the modern day analog would be; "Fundamentalist" Christians and/or "Born-Again" Christians. Both of whom interpret the strict word of the Old Testament (emphasis on everything from Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy: I.E. living as a Orthodox Jew (except when it's inconvenient, like, the ban on eating shellfish and wearing wool + cotton, or the Saturday sabbath), oh, and Revelations) as being more important than the spirit (forgiveness, brotherhood, and love for one's fellow man and God) of in the New Testament (I.E what Jesus actually friggen said; youknow, being...well... er... Christian, instead of an asshole).

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At least you understand it and are able to interpret it.

Unless I mis understood...you left out Governments and the Vatican.

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Originally Posted by StickmanLoser

I'm a fan of the Gospel of Professor Frank.

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Not quite as good, but also a fun piece by Nealy:

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Originally Posted by zapatistab

So by God allowing Satan to persecute Job to prove Satan wrong...makes God a faggot?

Job was rewarded in the end. Thats an interesting take on the situation.

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His original wife, kids, all of his servants and livestock were killed though.

Why should they be punished because God wants to prove a point? It isn't like they were brought back to life at the end.

Job gets a reward in a new family, but his original one was left to die for no real reason.

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Originally Posted by Nesagwa

His original wife, kids, all of his servants and livestock were killed though.

Why should they be punished because God wants to prove a point? It isn't like they were brought back to life at the end.

Job gets a reward in a new family, but his original one was left to die for no real reason.

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But God gives us the hope of living forever...Job had the hope of seeing his family again some day. The belief if hell fire or going to heaven messes this example all up.

God didn't create the earth for nothing...his original purpose was a paradise, but gave us free will. Adam and Eve messed it all up. We inherited sin...thats why we die.

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Originally Posted by zapatistab

But God gives us the hope of living forever...Job had the hope of seeing his family again some day. The belief if hell fire or going to heaven messes this example all up.

God didn't create the earth for nothing...his original purpose was a paradise, but gave us free will. Adam and Eve messed it all up. We inherited sin...thats why we die.

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But we'll live if we consume Christ's flesh and drink his blood. John 6.

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Originally Posted by zapatistab

But God gives us the hope of living forever...Job had the hope of seeing his family again some day. The belief if hell fire or going to heaven messes this example all up.

God didn't create the earth for nothing...his original purpose was a paradise, but gave us free will. Adam and Eve messed it all up. We inherited sin...thats why we die.

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In the Tanakh, and especially at the time the story of Job was written though, the idea of a "Heaven" and "Hell" in the Christian sense didn't really exist. Sheol certainly isn't paradise and wasn't seen as "living forever". You are interpreting the story from a Christian view.

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Originally Posted by Nesagwa

In the Tanakh, and especially at the time the story of Job was written though, the idea of a "Heaven" and "Hell" in the Christian sense didn't really exist. Sheol certainly isn't paradise and wasn't seen as "living forever". You are interpreting the story from a Christian view.

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Sheol was just a metaphor...look up the literal translation of Sheol...it's a place where garbage and dead bodies were dumped.

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Originally Posted by zapatistab

Sheol was just a metaphor...look up the literal translation of Sheol...it's a place where garbage and dead bodies were dumped.

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You can't claim literal readings of the Bible and then throw out "it was just a metaphor."

And even if Sheol is just a grave - there wasn't a real conception of a paradise in the afterlife. There was basically nothing when you died. Revelations hadn't been written and the concept of Heaven was foreign to them. Why would God condemn innocent people to that to test Job's faith.

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Originally Posted by zapatistab

So by God allowing Satan to persecute Job to prove Satan wrong...makes God a faggot?

Job was rewarded in the end. Thats an interesting take on the situation.

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God should have just enslaved him. Apparently that's not so bad.

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Originally Posted by Nesagwa

His original wife, kids, all of his servants and livestock were killed though.

Why should they be punished because God wants to prove a point? It isn't like they were brought back to life at the end.

Job gets a reward in a new family, but his original one was left to die for no real reason.

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Only a devout Christian can read that story and see it for anything other than what it is — a really, really weird fairy tale.

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Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny

Only a devout Christian can read that story and see it for anything other than what it is — a really, really weird fairy tale.

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Your snippy condescension isn't really an argument winner.

I never meant to imply otherwise.

Man. Have you even been reading this thread?

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Originally Posted by Nesagwa

You can't claim literal readings of the Bible and then throw out "it was just a metaphor."

And even if Sheol is just a grave - there wasn't a real conception of a paradise in the afterlife. There was basically nothing when you died. Revelations hadn't been written and the concept of Heaven was foreign to them. Why would God condemn innocent people to that to test Job's faith.

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Exactly...nothing happens when you die...maybe I'm not understanding you...the concept of heaven was foreign because going to heaven was never taught...it has nothing to do with Revelation.

With regards to metaphors...if all of Jesus and Bible teachings were literal...I would believe in Heaven, Hell, purgatory, the trinity, and I would kill a goat and put his blood over my door during Passover. And I would partake in communion every week like catholics.

Why would God condemn innocent people to that to test Job's faith. ????

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Originally Posted by zapatistab

Exactly...nothing happens when you die...maybe I'm not understanding you...the concept of heaven was foreign because going to heaven was never taught...it has nothing to do with Revelation.

With regards to metaphors...if all of Jesus and Bible teachings were literal...I would believe in Heaven, Hell, purgatory, the trinity, and I would kill a goat and put his blood over my door during Passover. And I would partake in communion every week like catholics.

Why would God condemn innocent people to that to test Job's faith. ????

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You may have lost me here. Are you saying you don't believe in heaven, then? Surely you've misspoken. I thought that was one of the core beliefs.

Are you saying that Job didn't know about heaven? I'll admit it. I don't know what's going on.

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Originally Posted by zapatistab

And I would partake in communion every week like catholics.

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Originally Posted by New World Translation

52 Therefore the Jews began contending with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Accordingly Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. 54 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

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Christ makes quite clear that he isn't speaking metaphorically.

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Originally Posted by HeartlessNinny

You may have lost me here. Are you saying you don't believe in heaven, then? Surely you've misspoken. I thought that was one of the core beliefs.

Are you saying that Job didn't know about heaven? I'll admit it. I don't know what's going on.

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Yes...I believe in Heaven...I just don't believe thats where I'm going when I die.

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Originally Posted by zapatistab

Exactly...nothing happens when you die...maybe I'm not understanding you...the concept of heaven was foreign because going to heaven was never taught...it has nothing to do with Revelation.

With regards to metaphors...if all of Jesus and Bible teachings were literal...I would believe in Heaven, Hell, purgatory, the trinity, and I would kill a goat and put his blood over my door during Passover. And I would partake in communion every week like catholics.

Why would God condemn innocent people to that to test Job's faith. ????

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I meant that the idea of redemption for those in the afterlife wasn't part of the equation. So killing people wouldn't really have some sort of purpose down the road.

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Originally Posted by StickmanLoser

Christ makes quite clear that he isn't speaking metaphorically.

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:hammer: