"Support Our Troops" stickers in Canada: Do they belong on public vehicles?

I've been seeing a lot of something while driving that I have not seen before in my life. Little gold ribbons stuck to bumbers that read, "Support our Troops."

http://spmedia.canada.com/gallery/00...19decal475.jpg

Though spotting these stickers was rare a month or two ago, it's at the point now where I can count on seeing at least one of these stickers even on a short drive. After a google search on the matter, I came across a National post article on the controversy. Some feel that the sticker is a stealth way for those who support our unpopular participation to show it, while others feel it is used to honour the troops.

Ultimately, you should be allowed to place whatever you want (within reason) to your car.

The real debate surrounds the affixing of these stickers to public vehicles (which I'm absolutely against) - as you can't please everybody.

As Bill Hicks said, "What if I support the war, but not the troops?" I think that Hicks really tries to point out the absurdity of these stickers as pro war propaganda and redundant. As a possible way of making people feel guilty for being critical of the war.

It's a really deep and potentially offensive issue for most though. The article at the post has some interesting discussion on it though.

NP Link

Some arguments by readers (which proved more interesting that the article):

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The problem is that, while the stickers ostensibly state the unarguable command to "Support Our Troops", the underlying message that many who sport these stickers are trying to get across is that of support for the war in Afghanistan. To most people, especially those with the mentality required to affix a tacky ribbon sticker to their car, one cannot "support our troops" without foregoing criticism of the mission those troops are tasked with carrying out.

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Take your bad feelings about the war in Afghanistan out on our politicians who made the decision, not on our soldiers!

God bless (me - *SIGH* - )our soldiers and their families. May they make a positive difference and return safely.

Graham

Winnipeg

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Given how our troops seem to be constantly neglected, ignored, and abused when it comes their support, one would think that the display of a "tacky ribbon sticker" to their vehicle would be the least they could do. As for those moderately media-savvy persons... your ability to enjoy those personal freedoms were won on the backs of those that have served, and are currently serving, our country.

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really don't understand why anyone feels that we should place stickers on public vehichles to announce that we support our troops, personally I think it's ridiculous.

These people are just doing there jobs, just as the police officers and firefighters of this country do every single day. I support anyone that puts there life on the line for the better of his community or country.

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You Americans are probably used to this by now - what do you think?

What's so unpopular about the war?

Does the money from the sale of these things go to like the VA Hospital funds or anything like the pink breast cancer ones get donated?

Canada has troops?

Well, I can see how uncomfortable that kind of situation is. The trick is being able to separate moral support for your troops from the politics behind the war.

In America, I think the right has finally embraced the idea that you can be against the war (i.e. the politics) and for the men and women on the ground doing their duty. But that concept is probably a bit more loaded in Canada than it is here.

So, I think, Canada should follow suit. If you want to be vocal about your support for or against the war, then do so. As long as the public vehicles are politically ambiguous, then go nuts.

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Originally Posted by SouthtownKid

Canada has troops?

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Ha ha.

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Originally Posted by norton9478

What's so unpopular about the war?

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A lot of Canadians believe we have no business in Afghanistan.

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Originally Posted by BoriquaSNK

Well, I can see how uncomfortable that kind of situation is. The trick is being able to separate moral support for your troops from the politics behind the war.

In America, I think the right has finally embraced the idea that you can be against the war (i.e. the politics) and for the men and women on the ground doing their duty. But that concept is probably a bit more loaded in Canada than it is here.

So, I think, Canada should follow suit. If you want to be vocal about your support for or against the war, then do so. As long as the public vehicles are politically ambiguous, then go nuts.

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agreed

I will say that such stickers are ok on some public vehicles as long as they are in both English and French.

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Originally Posted by BoriquaSNK

Well, I can see how uncomfortable that kind of situation is. The trick is being able to separate moral support for your troops from the politics behind the war.

In America, I think the right has finally embraced the idea that you can be against the war (i.e. the politics) and for the men and women on the ground doing their duty. But that concept is probably a bit more loaded in Canada than it is here.

So, I think, Canada should follow suit. If you want to be vocal about your support for or against the war, then do so. As long as the public vehicles are politically ambiguous, then go nuts.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by BoriquaSNK

Well, I can see how uncomfortable that kind of situation is. The trick is being able to separate moral support for your troops from the politics behind the war.

In America, I think the right has finally embraced the idea that you can be against the war (i.e. the politics) and for the men and women on the ground doing their duty. But that concept is probably a bit more loaded in Canada than it is here.

So, I think, Canada should follow suit. If you want to be vocal about your support for or against the war, then do so. As long as the public vehicles are politically ambiguous, then go nuts.

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To take this a step further, the US also has to deal with the extra layer of post-Vietnam-era confusion. Towards the end of NAM, there was an actual backlash against soldiers. Now, ever since Gulf War I, I think the US has done a good job of at least re-educating the populace that soldiers have no connection --well, other than electing people who might send them off...

If it weren't for the Vietnam era ghosts, I'd say the whole "support our troops" thing is a bit redundant --sort of like "take care of your kids". Well, no shit? Of course, a lot of public vehicles in the states carry public reminders that are sad to see but probably necessary: keep off drugs, don't beat your spouse, etc...

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Originally Posted by Bobak

To take this a step further, the US also has to deal with the extra layer of post-Vietnam-era confusion. Towards the end of NAM, there was an actual backlash against soldiers. Now, ever since Gulf War I, I think the US has done a good job of at least re-educating the populace that soldiers have no connection --well, other than electing people who might send them off...

If it weren't for the Vietnam era ghosts, I'd say the whole "support our troops" thing is a bit redundant --sort of like "take care of your kids". Well, no shit? Of course, a lot of public vehicles in the states carry public reminders that are sad to see but probably necessary: keep off drugs, don't beat your spouse, etc...

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I'm not trying to instigate but what about those that would argue that todays soldiers, who have voluntarily signed up for service, are by default, supportive of any military action?

Do you see what I'm trying to ask?

Of course, one could argue that the soldier has no choice in the wars his country fights and we should support his/her choice to join the service (which was likely done without any knowledge of a war even being on the horizon).

It's a loaded topic.

The point behind this issue, and the the controversy it caused in Toronto, is that public servants should have the right to unequivocally support other public servants.

A paramedic and a soldier are both public servants. The only difference is that the state asks them to do different things, and actually, in the case of a paramedic and a soldier...the state asks both to sometimes do the exact same thing.

Regardless of your personal politics on the issue, I don't think your tax dollar gives you the right to tell one public servant to remain silent on issues pertaining to another public servant.

The backlash against the troops post Vietnam was some pretty ridiculous shit. Especially considering how many were drafted in to the position. I'm all for supporting the troops, but not the war, Boriqua summed it up pretty well.

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Originally Posted by dark penguin

The point behind this issue, and the the controversy it caused in Toronto, is that public servants should have the right to unequivocally support other public servants.

A paramedic and a soldier are both public servants. The only difference is that the state asks them to do different things, and actually, in the case of a paramedic and a soldier...the state asks both to sometimes do the exact same thing.

Regardless of your personal politics on the issue, I don't think your tax dollar gives you the right to tell one public servant to remain silent on issues pertaining to another public servant.

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Couldn't I just argue that he has every right to decorate his own vehicle? My tax dollars do not dictate what he can do with the vehicles he purchases with the money he earns, but I think people have the right to complain if they see it on buses.

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Originally Posted by Bobak

To take this a step further, the US also has to deal with the extra layer of post-Vietnam-era confusion. Towards the end of NAM, there was an actual backlash against soldiers. Now, ever since Gulf War I, I think the US has done a good job of at least re-educating the populace that soldiers have no connection --well, other than electing people who might send them off...

If it weren't for the Vietnam era ghosts, I'd say the whole "support our troops" thing is a bit redundant --sort of like "take care of your kids". Well, no shit? Of course, a lot of public vehicles in the states carry public reminders that are sad to see but probably necessary: keep off drugs, don't beat your spouse, etc...

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That's pretty much what I was gonna say.

I was watching some show about WW2 on the History channel awhile back, and it showed the triumphant troops returning home to the cheering and grateful masses. My dad (who fought in Vietnam) was in the room, and he said "Wow, that's not how we were greeted. We got egged on and spit at."

I thought that was so sad.

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Originally Posted by Rade

Couldn't I just argue that he has every right to decorate his own vehicle? My tax dollars do not dictate what he can do with the vehicles he purchases with the money he earns, but I think people have the right to complain if they see it on buses.

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Yep, you sure could argue that. But I can tell you for a fact that the yellow vehicle ribbons are not given out for free. Even soldiers have to buy them for their own vehicles.
I agree that there is little meaning behind putting them on public transit vehicles because most of the people in the vehicle don't give a shit about it, especially in Toronto. But I think a first-line responder or fireman, etc, should be allowed to show a link to another sector of public service that is not very far off from his/her own.

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Originally Posted by dark penguin

Yep, you sure could argue that. But I can tell you for a fact that the yellow vehicle ribbons are not given out for free. Even soldiers have to buy them for their own vehicles.
I agree that there is little meaning behind putting them on public transit vehicles because most of the people in the vehicle don't give a shit about it, especially in Toronto. But I think a first-line responder or fireman, etc, should be allowed to show a link to another sector of public service that is not very far off from his/her own.

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But does everyone in the fire department agree with the ribbon/public vehicle issue? I'm not sure about the answer, but I doubt every firefighter and policeman shares the same opinion. It's such a complicated situation - these stickers are fine on private vehilcles, but I think a lot of controversy can be avoided rather easily but allowing them only to be placed on private vehicles.

I think it's kinda stupid because not everyone supports what's going on and yeah, most people wont even care to look at it anyways.

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Originally Posted by Rade

But does everyone in the fire department agree with the ribbon/public vehicle issue? I'm not sure about the answer, but I doubt every firefighter and policeman shares the same opinion. It's such a complicated situation - these stickers are fine on private vehilcles, but I think a lot of controversy can be avoided rather easily but allowing them only to be placed on private vehicles.

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Not 100% sure what the demographics are like on the department-wide agreement, but I know a lot of firemen/policemen are ex-military. I'm pretty sure that's part of the reason you see so many on public vehicles.

On the flipside of this whole thing, I've already served in Kandahar province and I can tell you I often get sick of seeing the damn yellow ribbons...not because of the politics of the situation, but mostly because it was an overnight infestation...on an epic scale.

Anyway, this is a good thread...and I know there's at least one US serviceman on this site who could probably open this conversation up from the other end.

cheers!

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Originally Posted by dark penguin

Not 100% sure what the demographics are like on the department-wide agreement, but I know a lot of firemen/policemen are ex-military. I'm pretty sure that's part of the reason you see so many on public vehicles.

On the flipside of this whole thing, I've already served in Kandahar province and I can tell you I often get sick of seeing the damn yellow ribbons...not because of the politics of the situation, but mostly because it was an overnight infestation...on an epic scale.

Anyway, this is a good thread...and I know there's at least one US serviceman on this site who could probably open this conversation up from the other end.

cheers!

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I hope you don't think I'm in anyway not supportive of the sacrifice soldiers have made, but the symbolic implications of the ribbon in Canada are very different from those in the US.

The ribbon is "new" to us Canadians, and its meaning is a lot different and varied depending on the individual than the universal understanding in the US.

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Originally Posted by Rade

I'm not trying to instigate but what about those that would argue that todays soldiers, who have voluntarily signed up for service, are by default, supportive of any military action?

Do you see what I'm trying to ask?

Of course, one could argue that the soldier has no choice in the wars his country fights and we should support his/her choice to join the service (which was likely done without any knowledge of a war even being on the horizon).

It's a loaded topic.

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I think a lot of civilians (including myself) kind of miss the point here, to people IN the military, by and large, service is just a job. It's what they do.

For a lot of them, honor had very little to do with it. Money for college, a pregnant wife or girlfriend, getting out of a bad situation at home...that's what brought most of the enlisted guys in.

It's no question, the culture of the military is very different from the public at large, it is a much more conservative culture, it's much more esoteric and, to some extent, exclusionary. In the US they vote Republican 2 to 1.

When they are on the battlefield, the goal is to stay alive, not to fight for abstract causes. What's freedom if your dead?

So, in my opinion, troops shouldn't be held liable for the wars they fight. When you sign up, you're a tool of the military...it's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Rade

I think a lot of controversy can be avoided rather easily but allowing them only to be placed on private vehicles.

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Police vehicles often say "To Protect and Serve", or some variation thereof, but I know of people who hate cops and would cringe at that statement. Should the motto be banned from police vehicles then?

Would you be aversed to ambulances with a "Support Our Firefighters" sticker? Or perhaps a fire engine with a "Support Our Teachers" sticker?

Or is it that since you don't agree with the war going on right now that you take offense to the slogan, despite the fact that the troops are following the orders of their country?

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Originally Posted by Rade

I hope you don't think I'm in anyway not supportive of the sacrifice soldiers have made, but the symbolic implications of the ribbon in Canada are very different from those in the US.

The ribbon is "new" to us Canadians, and its meaning is a lot different and varied depending on the individual than the universal understanding in the US.

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Next thing you know, you'll be building NASCAR tracks with guys like this:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85...lives/the3.jpg

Look out.

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Originally Posted by Bobak

Next thing you know, you'll be building NASCAR tracks with guys like this:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85...lives/the3.jpg

Look out.

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I'm not sure if you are trying to insult me or not, Bobak.

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Originally Posted by Rade

I'm not sure if you are trying to insult me or not, Bobak.

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Preface me previous comment with "look out"

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Originally Posted by Zenimus

Police vehicles often say "To Protect and Serve", or some variation thereof, but I know of people who hate cops and would cringe at that statement. Should the motto be banned from police vehicles then?

Would you be aversed to ambulances with a "Support Our Firefighters" sticker? Or perhaps a fire engine with a "Support Our Teachers" sticker?

Or is it that since you don't agree with the war going on right now that you take offense to the slogan, despite the fact that the troops are following the orders of their country?

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A part of me sees the slogan and ribbon as masked military propaganda - disguised as something good and hard to argue with when faced with a pro war mob. I see it as an easy way of saying you support the war.

Another side understands the need to support the "troops" and the historical contributions of their brotherhood.

I think Bobak was trying to hit a nail on the head with that Nascar picture, but another part of me sees a militant, almost American understanding of that ribbon. I know not all Americans support their country's action and a good portion of you are awesome, creative and incredibly intelligent (thanks no doubt to freedoms won for you by countrymen in past wars) but I assocaite with other Canadians who don't want any associations with America's recent military problems.

Please don't think I'm trying to spit in anyones face here - the issue is far to coplicated for anyone to bring it down to that level.

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Originally Posted by Rade

Please don't think I'm trying to spit in anyones face here - the issue is far to coplicated for anyone to bring it down to that level.

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I'm not, I was just trying to pin down the exact reason for your "psychosis" on the issue. :)

I've always seen the message as an encouragement for people to remember the important sacrifices that our countries' military forces have made so that we can all enjoy the comfortable lifestyles we have. A lot of that is often taken for granted, as was made painfully obvious by the anti-war crowd during the Vietnam era.

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Originally Posted by Zenimus

I'm not, I was just trying to pin down the exact reason for your "psychosis" on the issue. :)

I've always seen the message as an encouragement for people to remember the important sacrifices that our countries' military forces have made so that we can all enjoy the comfortable lifestyles we have. A lot of that is often taken for granted, as was made painfully obvious by the anti-war crowd during the Vietnam era.

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I'm sorry - but I just can't believe you're still insinuating that I do not support the troops. There is a difference between me supporting the troops and "supporting the troops" as symbolized by the ribbons.

I don't think you understand the point of the thread. Try again.

1. The idea that most/all [any?] Vietnam Vets were physically spit on/at is largely an urban legend.

2. Many US Citz sporting those damn stickers voted for representatives that went on to vote for cuts in benefits and pay for troops serving overseas.

3. Such advertising is not patriotic.... It's just showing an unabashed love for the Military Industrial complex.

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Originally Posted by Rade

I'm sorry - but I just can't believe you're still insinuating that I do not support the troops. There is a difference between me supporting the troops and "supporting the troops" as symbolized by the ribbons.

I don't think you understand the point of the thread. Try again.

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Eh???

I understand perfectly what you mean. I was simply stating what I view the ribbons as.

I think you may have misunderstood what I said and took it as a jab at you. Not the case, my friend.

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Originally Posted by Zenimus

Eh???

I understand perfectly what you mean. I was simply stating what I view the ribbons as.

I think you may have misunderstood what I said and took it as a jab at you. Not the case, my friend.

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Sorry - I can only read your posts - I cant read you mind.

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Originally Posted by Rade

I'm sorry - but I just can't believe you're still insinuating that I do not support the troops. There is a difference between me supporting the troops and "supporting the troops" as symbolized by the ribbons.

I don't think you understand the point of the thread. Try again.

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I'll quote this for good measure. I try to take an apolitical approach to it, and I think support ribbons will be around long after the last American, Canadian and British soldiers (etc) have boarded the final transport planes out of Kandahar. I'm pretty sure they'll still be plastered to cars and ambulances the moment the first boot is on the ground in Darfur or wherever.

There's a definite dividing line between supporting the troops and supporting the war, but most soldiers I know don't give a shit about whether they have overwhelming public support anyway. They keep doing whatever the current government asks them to do, and probably won't make any decisions on the morality of the job until they're on a flight home from the desert, when it's a moot point anyway. Most guys just don't want their kids to have to go back and do the same shitty stuff in 20 years, and that's about the end of it.

I guess that's all I'll say on anything regarding the politics of this issue, except that discussions like this shouldn't be seen as anti-military...anti-military was the jackass who urinated on a war memorial in Ottawa last year.

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Originally Posted by norton9478

1. The idea that most/all [any?] Vietnam Vets were physically spit on/at is largely an urban legend.

2. Many US Citz sporting those damn stickers voted for representatives that went on to vote for cuts in benefits and pay for troops serving overseas.

3. Such advertising is not patriotic.... It's just showing an unabashed love for the Military Industrial complex.

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You want someone with a real psychosis, here we go.

You think Vietnam vets getting spat on is an urban legend?? Hah, tell that to my dad, who experienced it first hand. Why don't you stop reading the nutty conspiracy websites and do a little research before you post low-brow nonsense like that.

"Unabashed love for the Military Industrial complex"? Sure, you keep telling yourself that.

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Originally Posted by dark penguin

I'll quote this for good measure. .

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Yes, you got me. I don't support the war. I was going to edit that but I guess it's too late now.

Damn.

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Originally Posted by Zenimus

You want someone with a real psychosis, here we go.

You think Vietnam vets getting spat on is an urban legend?? Hah, tell that to my dad, who experienced it first hand. Why don't you stop reading the nutty conspiracy websites and do a little research before you post low-brow nonsense like that.
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Well my dad went over Niagara falls without a barrel and lived....

Actually It might night have been my dad, it might have been his cousin. Or a friend of his cousin... Or his cousin's neighbor's friend.

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Originally Posted by Zenimus

"Unabashed love for the Military Industrial complex"? Sure, you keep telling yourself that.

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I'm just telling you what I think the ribbons really mean.....

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Originally Posted by norton9478

1. The idea that most/all [any?] Vietnam Vets were physically spit on/at is largely an urban legend.

2. Many US Citz sporting those damn stickers voted for representatives that went on to vote for cuts in benefits and pay for troops serving overseas.

3. Such advertising is not patriotic.... It's just showing an unabashed love for the Military Industrial complex.

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I will say one thing - the unpopularity of the Vietnam War is historically overstated.

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Originally Posted by Rade

I will say one thing - the unpopularity of the Vietnam War is historically overstated.

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I'll agree with that...... If you are only talking about public opinion from 1965-1975.....

What did it run even towards the end??? 30(favor of), 60 (Not in favor of), 10 (Undecided)?

People forget that a good chunk of the US population were behind the war. Probably more than are behind the current Iraqi Occupation.

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Originally Posted by norton9478

I'll agree with that...... If you are only talking about public opinion from 1965-1975.....

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The whole era (1963-75) is an interesting one. Lots of things going on in the world and in America politically and socially. A whole lot more than Vietnam was going on, though certainly that was a major aspect of the era.

Damn your edits Norton:

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What did it run even towards the end??? 30(favor of), 60 (Not in favor of), 10 (Undecided)?

People forget that a good chunk of the US population were behind the war. Probably more than are behind the current Iraqi Occupation.

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I don't have any statistics on support for the war, though i'm sure it declined over time. A lot of people supported the war, and a lot of people still think it was a correct decision to enter the war in Vietnam.

Vietnam and it's effect on America is undoubtedly huge though, and i'd say it's shadow is something that we still haven't escaped.

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Originally Posted by norton9478

I'll agree with that...... If you are only talking about public opinion from 1965-1975.....

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Of course - the countercultural backlash was relatively small compared to those who felt it was justified. After 1975, people figured it out.

NAM-1975 was never very popular though.

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Originally Posted by Rade

Yes, you got me. I don't support the war. I was going to edit that but I guess it's too late now.

Damn.

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Erm, that wasn't meant to be an insult or anything. Not sure where the lines got crossed.

Anyway, this is the first time in a long time I've seen a thread of this nature go on this long without degenerating into a stupid pissing contest or flame war. Which is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by norton9478

1. The idea that most/all [any?] Vietnam Vets were physically spit on/at is largely an urban legend.

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This is the second time I've seen you state this.

Each and every thread you manage to post nothing but horse shit in the guise of your uninformed, uneducated opinions.

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Originally Posted by Eric

This is the second time I've seen you state this.

Each and every thread you manage to post nothing but horse shit in the guise of your uninformed, uneducated opinions.

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"[he's] a bigot, but for the left".

Sorry, that quote doesn't really work but I felt like throwing it in.

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Originally Posted by Eric

This is the second time I've seen you state this.

Each and every thread you manage to post nothing but horse shit in the guise of your uninformed, uneducated opinions.

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I do not think that you have room to talk considering the fact that you have ZERO ABM (above the market) posts in the last two years.

If you knew about all the great things I do around here, you might modify that statement slightly.

Nobody answered my question.

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Originally Posted by Nesagwa

Nobody answered my question.

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There would be no way to know that, in my opinion.

If one group was selling them for funds to go to say a VA Hospital, 10 other vendors could be selling cheap knock offs for profit with none of the funds going to any charity.

I understand what you are getting at though.

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Originally Posted by Nesagwa

Does the money from the sale of these things go to like the VA Hospital funds or anything like the pink breast cancer ones get donated?

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To my knowledge no...I believe the funds just go back into printing more. Our VA system up here isn't too bad as is...we seem to have avoided most of the problems plaguing US institutions like Walter Reed Hospital.

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Originally Posted by Nesagwa

Nobody answered my question.

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You'd have to ask the retailer selling it.

I'm willing to bet no for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Nesagwa

Does the money from the sale of these things go to like the VA Hospital funds or anything like the pink breast cancer ones get donated?

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Man none of that money goes anywhere.......

It's all a sham...

What would be cool would be to go around stealing those magnets off of cars, sell them at $1 a piece, then give all the money to the proper charities.......

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Originally Posted by dark penguin

To my knowledge no...I believe the funds just go back into printing more. Our VA system up here isn't too bad as is...we seem to have avoided most of the problems plaguing US institutions like Walter Reed Hospital.

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Ours is probably better....

A real war can put a real strain on a system....

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Originally Posted by norton9478

Man none of that money goes anywhere.......

It's all a sham...

What would be cool would be to go around stealing those magnets off of cars, sell them at $1 a piece, then give all the money to the proper charities.......

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Haha I should get right on that Robin Hood.

I get to be little john.