http://www.gwn.com/news/story.php/id...tion_Chip.html
If it means a price drop then I wouldn't care.
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http://www.gwn.com/news/story.php/id...tion_Chip.html
If it means a price drop then I wouldn't care.
Thats cool the PS3 will be able to upscale PS1 and PS2 titles to 720p and 1080i.
Does this mean that OG PS3's will be t3h r@r3??!!!??! :eek: :eek:
~lol @ Sony
All I want is TimeSplitters FP, online, in HD. Is that too fucking much to ask?
While thaty's a definate plus, the downside is that its going to mean this is all software emulator, and it will probably have very spotty compatibility. I'm hoping to get a 20gb ps3 before they lose the ps2 chips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky Lover 53
Matt
After 10 years of reverse-engineering, you can play PS1 games reliably on a PC. Right there, that's the PS1, done. It's possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Force
The PS2 is already being emulated after only 6 years. That's 6 years of pure reverse-engineering, and I can run TimeSplitters in 800x600 at full speed on my PC.
With a company working on the code, and with access to all the hardware documents, it really shouldn't be that hard. Especially if the collaborate with the nVidia and cell design people, they could squeeze very good results out; maybe even get some AA + AF going. It's very possible to build a good PS2 emulator, it's just hard because no one outside of Sony has the full hardware specs. Of course, that's outside of Sony...
(Another plus would be HD; if you're simply emulating it you can make it render at whatever resolution you want.)
We'll see. I still say it'll be the equivalent of the XB on 360 emulation though. With spotty but ever growing compatibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamYouToDeath
Matt
They haven't added in a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Force
Plus, why the hell aren't they rendering in HD on the 360? They've got virtually the same GPU, and virtually the same GPU libraries! Come on, you're not even emulating the graphics, so why not turn 'em up?
Ummm.... they are rendering them in HD.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamYouToDeath
...and the GPU in the 360 has virtually nothing in common with that used in the original XBox.
lol
The 360 and original Xbox are entirely different machines in every way. The only close similarity between the two is that they both have DVD drives :p .
Hardware backwards compatibility>>>>>>>>software compatibility
I wonder if Sony will introduce a firmware "upgrade" to disable the PS2 chip in curren PS3 machines so that all machines will be equally neutered.
That wouldn't surprise me in the least. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldios
What is the downside of losing the chip and having everything emulated via software?
They might do a half ass job with the emulation and the games will run like crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerousK
Or some will run great, and some won't be supported at all aka the 360 situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by genjiglove
Matt
No, they're not. They're upscaling the games after rendering in 480p.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishamon
Okay, there I got my facts mixed up. But regardless, they're still using compatible APIs, so they should be able to do some REALLY high-level emulation, especially considering their strict tech cert requirements and knowledge of the DX APIs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishamon
Regardless, they are running at your chosen desired HD output resolution, and look noticably better than 480p. I could have sworn they were actually rendering them at 720p and not just upscaling, but I have found contradictory information.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamYouToDeath
It is true that they seem to have had more difficulty than would have been expected.Quote:
Okay, there I got my facts mixed up. But regardless, they're still using compatible APIs, so they should be able to do some REALLY high-level emulation, especially considering their strict tech cert requirements and knowledge of the DX APIs.
I'm sure the PAL units already have it removed with the launch consoles releasing this thursday.
The bottom line is, to us the consumer, there is absolutely no benefit to switching to software emulation.
Sony is not going to drop the price of the PS3 for some time, and you can bet the farm on that. This move only benefits Sony in that they can now shave a little more off of the manufacturing costs of the PS3.
Emulation is emulation, and of course it's not going to be as good as running the games on the actual hardware. More than likely, a compatibility list will be produced with more games being added as time goes on and updates go out.
To further add to that statement, Sony already has solid ps1 emulation on the psp. A large percentage of ps1 games are solid on the emulator (done via hacked firmwares). So ps1 emulation on ps3 will be the same as psp (pretty much spot on). Ps2 I can see being low at first but will probably improve over time, nobody really knows what parts are emulated still (far as i've figured out not all ps2 parts are done via emulation, only a few chips with most guesses on the EE being emulated but not the GS).Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamYouToDeath
I'm still also wondering why they don't recompile the games instead of emulating them; they have access to the source for at least some, if not all games. Have any idea? I'da thought that at least with Halo 2, they'd simply do a recompile for 360 owners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishamon
Sony wouldn't have source code to 3rd-party software.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamYouToDeath
Yeah, sorry for getting off-topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by 68k
:emb:
So for the first gen owners with the hardware emulation, do you think we will also get an update to enable software scaling??
There is a good chance all users will ultimately be running via emulation and first model ps3 will just idle the chips being emulated.Quote:
Originally Posted by ResOGlas
No. It has been stated that it is not possible to disable the EE chip via firmware update. Hopefully us 1st rev owners will be able to play all PS1 and 2 games and also upscale them too.Quote:
Originally Posted by subbie
That might be an internal desision but it's not something that can't be done. The Ps3 does not treat the ps2 like the wii treats the gamecube (ie rebooting into a backwards compatible mode).Quote:
Originally Posted by J0e Musashi
Ps3 is heavly driven via firmware and redirecting the system to execute the emulator vs switching on the EE is software controlled. Ps3 is heavly like the PSP and you don't have to look far to see what is done on the PSP via firmware hacks.
Direct from the horses mouth.Quote:
Wired News: I have a first-run PS3 in the US, with the Emotion Engine chip, and I love playing PS2 games on it. Is that functionality going to be killed with a future firmware update? Are they going to switch all the PS3s over to software emulation?
Phil Harrison: You can't switch it off.
With no proper details comming from a PR person. How many times have PR people stated things that were far from factual when related to technology?Quote:
Originally Posted by J0e Musashi
I'm a comercial coder and long time psp homebrew coder. The psp has done many things that sony says are not posible to do.
So again, find a better source.
:tickled:
Quote:
Originally Posted by subbie
Why would they disable the EE+GS chip in the version 1 PS3s?
Yeah, seems like it would be Sony plain going out of their way to piss people off.Quote:
Originally Posted by 68k
Actually, it doesn't sound that ridiculous.
There's no reason to believe it IS capable of being disabled via a firmware update. Why would Sony set it up that way? It wouldn't make any sense at all, unless they specifically intended to shut it off later (and why do that before the decision to use software emulation had been made?).Quote:
Originally Posted by subbie
OK so let's say they do somehow disable the EE+GS chip. Of course with this new software emulation, they are probably going to have to release compatibility lists similar to the Xbox. Of course the range of compatibility is not going to be as great as the real hardware.
So you have a game you enjoy playing on your PS3, a new update is released, once you install it your game no longer works. Why? because it's not on the software compatibility list.
The best card for Sony to play is to leave the version 1 PS3s as they lie and continue on with the new machines. Kind of gangster that early PS3s will be able to play all PS2 games and the new revision will only play some.
LOL, that sounds just like sony. They bit off more than they could chew. They made fun of ms for taking the emu route, now look whos going to follow suit. Everything sony has thrown rocks at MS about the 360 they either replicated or are going to do it in the near future. I don't see the sony brand coming out of this war alive. Good luck to them and their supporters.Quote:
Originally Posted by 68k
That is up for sony to deside. There are many benifits later on for the emulation route over the hardware route.Quote:
Originally Posted by jethrek
To state it's not posible to disable via firmware (which was argued against me) is dumb. It's more then posible. As to a question if they will do it, I personaly think when they feel their emulator is more then good enough that they will.
If the Ps2 in the ps3 was entirely hardware driven, The old model ps3 wont be able to upscale games to 720p/1080i/1080p. To make thoes upscale changes will result in some part of the process being taken over via an emulator (truthfuly, some minor parts are already emulated).
Well here lies the problem. The ps3 is firmware driven much like the PSP. Ultimately it means sony will have to ultimately deal with two versions of the firmware to properly account for all this.Quote:
Originally Posted by 68k
The best card for sony would be to give people who have a first model ps3 the option to execute the game via hardware or emulation.
What are old model ps3 user going to think when they can't run ps2 games in 720p/1080i/1080p because the games will be entirely driven via hardware (which is not the case as parts are software driven already).
Some form of additional emulation will be introduced to old model ps3, specialy if they wish to get the bells and wissels the new model ps3 will get when running ps2 software.
Considering Sony's track record with the PS2, I doubt they will worry too much about upscaling games on the V1 PS3. Think about how many hardware changes were made to the PS2 that added and removed functionality: firewire port, infrared port, hard drive support, modem support...Quote:
Originally Posted by subbie
Also, giving the average consumer the option to play their games via software emulation or hardware would be a train wreck. I'd say less that 10% of PS3 owners are actually knowledgable about any of this, and would know what they prefer.
You do know who Phil Harrison is right? I don't think you are any more qualified than me to say what is going to happen. I have a source, no matter how good you think it is, whereas you are just basically stating that because you are a coder you know best. I think it's best we wait until Thursday to actually find out. I find it hard to believe that SCEI would manufacture a batch of consoles that are basically going to become defunct after only 3 months, losing hundreds of thousands of dollars in the process. I'm thinking myself that the older batch will benefit from being able to play all games whilst also being able to upscale them, but we shall have to wait and see.Quote:
Originally Posted by subbie
Socking enough, Sony did release a patch so ps2 games like FF11 that require hard drive could run on the ps3. So I think sony's track record is not so simple to slice.Quote:
Originally Posted by 68k
As for giving the option being that difficult. I worrie how average consumers are handling using the ps3 at all. They must be lost trying to find the on button. :tickled:
Yes I do know who phil is yet your source was nothing more then a 1 liner from PR with no hw specific details. I'm also not just some two bit gaming nerd who gets his opinions out of gaming mags. I do software development for a living.Quote:
Originally Posted by J0e Musashi
Again the only way old model ps3 are getting upscaling support is if more is if more ps2 hw is forced into emulation mode. You're going to have some form of trade off for first model ps3 to support things new model ps3 will get via emulation.
ATM I would be shocked if sony does not auto force all ps1 software though emulation because their ps1 emulator for psp (which is being ported to ps3) is extreamly damn good with high compatibility.
Fair enough. I never said you were a two-bit gaming nerd either.Quote:
Originally Posted by subbie
Is it not possible for the PS1 and PS2 support to run off of the hardware in the older machines, with software enabling the upscaling at the same time?
If the updatable areas of the firmware do not allow it to take over PS2 execution, it would be foolish to insist with such certainty that Sony will do something they themselves claim they have no intention of.Quote:
Originally Posted by subbie
Intercepting and updating games would probably take as much work as shutting off the Emotion Engine anyway. The switch to the Emotion Engine (contrary to what subbie has decided without any evidence to back himself up) could very well be handled within the hardware, or within software not updatable with firmware updates.Quote:
Originally Posted by J0e Musashi
Why would Sony even go through all this trouble? Chances are, the emulated PS3 games won't be upscaled given Sony's recent history. PS3 fans probably aren't buying PS3s because they want upscaled PS2 games, realistically.
If swiching to the EE was handled in hardware, don't you think we would be required to flip some switch to boot the ps2 (ala the GBC swich inside the GBA cart port). People don't seem to understand how software driven the ps3 & psp really are.Quote:
Originally Posted by jethrek
Know how PSP runs iso with out any hardware modifications? It intersepts and patches the firmware library thats active in memory (psp does not reboot the hardware when a game is executed).
You're being foolish with your last comment there. Sony's intent for quite some time was to software emulate the ps1 & ps2 on the ps3. If it was a question of why is sony going though all the trouble, Why even pull the EE out in the first place and offer software emulation in it's place?
People are jumping on the idea that software Ps2 emulation is a last min desision when it's not. It's something thats been discussed before the ps3 was released. Throwing in ps2 hardware was actualy a last min desision.
--edit--
Something I forgot to mention. Sony has stated they will bring 720p+ upscaling to ps1/2 software when running on the new model ps3.
This is actually correct. They didnt have a decent software emulator finished in time for launch.Quote:
Originally Posted by subbie
Software emulation was sony's original plan, but they ran out of time and didn't have the emulator working yet so they put in the ps2 hardware. If you remember the announcements sony made a month ro two before the ps3 came out, they more or less said all this. They also implied the ps2 chip in the ps3 wouldn't be a permanent solution and they were still working on software emulation. SO I'd say this decision was made a long time ago, and it's very possible they made it so the ps2 chip could be turned off.Quote:
Originally Posted by jethrek
Matt
No, actually, I cannot imagine a reason in the world it would need a physical switch. The Game Boy uses a 5 volt CPU, and the GBA uses an ARM-7, hence the GBA needs to be switched over before reading the ROM. For the Wii and PS3, there's no reason to switch on another CPU before reading the game since it's not trying to interface with something entirely incompatible.Quote:
Originally Posted by subbie
Your bungled and insubstantive explanation wouldn't mean very much as to how PS2 playback is enabled on the PS3.Quote:
Know how PSP runs iso with out any hardware modifications? It intersepts and patches the firmware library thats active in memory (psp does not reboot the hardware when a game is executed).
TO SAVE MONEYQuote:
You're being foolish with your last comment there. Sony's intent for quite some time was to software emulate the ps1 & ps2 on the ps3. If it was a question of why is sony going though all the trouble, Why even pull the EE out in the first place and offer software emulation in it's place?
Except that Sony claims it cannot. It's entirely possible they did not believe it to be important to make emulation enabled in all PS3 consoles. Why some of you are convinced otherwise I don't know, because lying about this doesn't really make sense: being able to update the older PS3's to upscale games would be a victory yet not in any way a priority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Force
I'm just saying it's a possibility. Are you saying sony has never went back on thier word? lolzQuote:
Originally Posted by jethrek
Matt
Out of these games...
God Of War
R-type Final
Half Life
Black
Bully
VF4
DMC
MGS2
MGS3 SUB
...only Half Life works under software emulation PS3s.
Lol.
I won't be updating my firmware for a while.
There's no fucking way Sony could do something like this without running a single piece of code on the CELL core(s) unless it was activated by a hardware switch.Quote:
Originally Posted by jethrek
That line of code needn't be something it is possible/plausible to firmware update to enable PS2 emulation in favor of EE execution. And there could be a "switch" that isn't a physical switch, which is what makes the GBA/GBC crossover unique.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamYouToDeath
F-I-A-S-C-O
So you're saying something like backwards compatibility switching, which they knew was not complete, would be in some 360-like builtin CPU ROM?Quote:
Originally Posted by jethrek
For reference, can someone tell me how this whole thing works? Like, how do you make it boot a PS2 game? Can you access some facet of PS3 menus during PS2 gameplay?