Theologians, indulge me: (not being totally sarcastic)

What did god do before he created the universe?

While I'm an atheist who isn't satisfied with the Big Bang Theory (rather, I don't think the human mind is capable of understanding it due to our evolutionary limitations... boy that's another long subject for later), I know that the believers think the universe started when God decided it did.

So what was going on before that?

And not the Noah-flood BS, that was already covered in a few of the books. I mean before Adam and Eve or God pressed "Start" on the Big Bang.

I'm honestly curious.

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Originally Posted by Bobak

What did god do before he created the universe?

While I'm an atheist who isn't satisfied with the Big Bang Theory (rather, I don't think the human mind is capable of understanding it due to our evolutionary limitations... boy that's another long subject for later), I know that the believers think the universe started when God decided it did.

So what was going on before that?

And not the Noah-flood BS, that was already covered in a few of the books. I mean before Adam and Eve or God pressed "Start" on the Big Bang.

I'm honestly curious.

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It's all in the bible.

God had some problems with Satan and kicked his ass out.

Or some shit like that.

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Originally Posted by norton9478

It's all in the bible.

God had some problems with Satan and kicked his ass out.

Or some shit like that.

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Yes, Satan was an angel called Lucifer, right? He was the most beautiful angel, or something like that... he had 10 wings, almost as powerful as a god.

God got jealous of his beauty and power and kicked his ass out of heaven.

Then Lucifer founded the rival company, "Hell".

Heaven has a better Marketing manager and PR people though.

I guess you could say that time is meaningless to a being that is infinite.

But thats crazy talk.

Edit: Jesus stated "I am" meaning that he is forever, there is no beginning or end to him or his power. So God always existed and will forever according to the Christian view.

It requires thinking of God as less of a big dude in the sky and more as a formless entity present in everything that exist, has existed and ever will exist.

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Originally Posted by Mushiki

Heaven has a better Marketing manager and PR people though.

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Dunno...hell's marketing campaign is pretty well thought out and executed

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Originally Posted by melchia

Dunno...hell's marketing campaign is pretty well thought out and executed

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Yep.

Dracula was right after all.

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Originally Posted by Nesagwa

I guess you could say that time is meaningless to a being that is infinite.

But thats crazy talk.

Edit: Jesus stated "I am" meaning that he is forever, there is no beginning or end to him or his power. So God always existed and will forever according to the Christian view.

It requires thinking of God as less of a big dude in the sky and more as a formless entity present in everything that exist, has existed and ever will exist.

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Most non-Christians can't get it through their heads that we (Christians) don't see God as a big white guy with a beard in the sky.


I blame lack of education.

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Originally Posted by Magnaflux

Most non-Christians can't get it through their heads that we (Christians) don't see God as a big white guy with a beard in the sky.


I blame lack of education.

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I blame lack of interest.

It's my undertanding that the fall of Lucifer was due to the creation of man. It wasn't being on equal terms with god that Lucifer wanted so much as he defied the idea of serving man. He knew he was better than man in so many ways and couldn't bear to be a servant of humans.

Before the universe was created, god created the different classes of angels. The seraphim, archangels, thrones, dignities, cherubim, etc.

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Originally Posted by Mushiki

I blame lack of interest.

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I blame metrosexuals.

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Originally Posted by Bobak

What did god do before he created the universe?

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On the opposite side, what was going on in the Universe prior to the Big Bang?

The truth is, no one knows, and all you're asking for is arguments and flared tempers with this post.

The Big Bang is a very convenient way to say that's where the beginning is. We know there was likely something before the Big Bang, but since there is no way a human will likely ever be able to look back in time to find out, it's a rather moot point. Perhaps it's the same thing for God?

And who is to say God didn't decide on the Big Bang? Maybe he was taking a massive shit priot to the Big Bang and accidentally let too much material fly? Or perhaps God isn't a being shaped like a human, but a collection of all the "laws" that make up the Universe? Like Carl Sagan said, no one wants to pray to the Law of Gravity.

We can look back in time to an extent thanks to how long it takes light from other stars/universes to meet us here on Earth, but any light that would have been produced with the Big Bang, if any, would no longer be visible, likely, from anywhere in the Cosmos, so the only way to explain it would be to theorize. God made the Big Bang is as acceptable a theory as we have for the beginning of the Universe.

Or maybe, as with all things, it's more fun to just speculate on and think for yourself?

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Originally Posted by wasabi

It's my undertanding that the fall of Lucifer was due to the creation of man. It wasn't being on equal terms with god that Lucifer wanted so much as he defied the idea of serving man. He knew he was better than man in so many ways and couldn't bear to be a servant of humans.

Before the universe was created, god created the different classes of angels. The seraphim, archangels, thrones, dignities, cherubim, etc.

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These answers are still too narrowly aimed:

What happened before God kicked out Lucy? Obviously he created his little Kingdom of Heaven, but before that? What made him decide to do it?

LOL, if there were a god, it's plainly obvious all that currently known "pre-history" is fabricated by humans who didn't know the earth was round.

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Originally Posted by Magnaflux

Most non-Christians can't get it through their heads that we (Christians) don't see God as a big white guy with a beard in the sky.


I blame lack of education.

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I always saw him as a Big Black Bald Guy in the Sky.... With shades.

Kinda Like a Jazz Bass Player.

I'm starting my all-inclusive own Sect with this theme.

Our motto:

GOD ---- Mah Nigga

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Originally Posted by slerch666

On the opposite side, what was going on in the Universe prior to the Big Bang?

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as someone who doesn't necessarily buy the big bang theory or theological explanations, it seems possible that space and time exist in a continuum.

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Originally Posted by Bobak

These answers are still too narrowly aimed:

What happened before God kicked out Lucy? Obviously he created his little Kingdom of Heaven, but before that? What made him decide to do it?

LOL, if there were a god, it's plainly obvious all that currently known "pre-history" is fabricated by humans who didn't know the earth was round.

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maybe he was still a young deity back then, just out of God school, with a degree, trying to find work, living paycheck to paycheck. before that he'd go out and get crunked, maybe smoke a little of the wacky tobacky (big blunts for gods, not humans).

You know. stuff like that.

I dunno. What does a spider do in life before making a big web? What do birds do before building nests?

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Originally Posted by slerch666

On the opposite side, what was going on in the Universe prior to the Big Bang?

The truth is, no one knows, and all you're asking for is arguments and flared tempers with this post.

The Big Bang is a very convenient way to say that's where the beginning is. We know there was likely something before the Big Bang, but since there is no way a human will likely ever be able to look back in time to find out, it's a rather moot point. Perhaps it's the same thing for God?

And who is to say God didn't decide on the Big Bang? Maybe he was taking a massive shit priot to the Big Bang and accidentally let too much material fly? Or perhaps God isn't a being shaped like a human, but a collection of all the "laws" that make up the Universe? Like Carl Sagan said, no one wants to pray to the Law of Gravity.

We can look back in time to an extent thanks to how long it takes light from other stars/universes to meet us here on Earth, but any light that would have been produced with the Big Bang, if any, would no longer be visible, likely, from anywhere in the Cosmos, so the only way to explain it would be to theorize. God made the Big Bang is as acceptable a theory as we have for the beginning of the Universe.

Or maybe, as with all things, it's more fun to just speculate on and think for yourself?

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I'm almost certain you pee sitting down.

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Originally Posted by wasabi

I'm almost certain you pee sitting down.

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Only when I'm taking a shit.

Whatever happened to the theory that the Universe was Sneezed out of the nooze of a diety.

And we all should frett of the "Comming of the big white hankey"????

Sounds plausable to me.



-P.S. I think that Digtial Watches are a Neat Idea.

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Originally Posted by norton9478

Whatever happened to the theory that the Universe was Sneezed out of the nooze of a diety.

And we all should frett of the "Comming of the big white hankey"????

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Perhaps this diety was watching Internet porn and we aren't shot from his nose...

Might explain the Milky Way.

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Originally Posted by slerch666

On the opposite side, what was going on in the Universe prior to the Big Bang?

The truth is, no one knows, and all you're asking for is arguments and flared tempers with this post.

The Big Bang is a very convenient way to say that's where the beginning is. We know there was likely something before the Big Bang, but since there is no way a human will likely ever be able to look back in time to find out, it's a rather moot point. Perhaps it's the same thing for God?

And who is to say God didn't decide on the Big Bang? Maybe he was taking a massive shit priot to the Big Bang and accidentally let too much material fly? Or perhaps God isn't a being shaped like a human, but a collection of all the "laws" that make up the Universe? Like Carl Sagan said, no one wants to pray to the Law of Gravity.

We can look back in time to an extent thanks to how long it takes light from other stars/universes to meet us here on Earth, but any light that would have been produced with the Big Bang, if any, would no longer be visible, likely, from anywhere in the Cosmos, so the only way to explain it would be to theorize. God made the Big Bang is as acceptable a theory as we have for the beginning of the Universe.

Or maybe, as with all things, it's more fun to just speculate on and think for yourself?

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I already have issues with the Big Bang, as I took pains to note in the original post.

I just want to know the backstory to the biggest story on earth. I mean, c'mon, don't all you people have some intellectual curiousity --regardless of belief?

I'm surprised there isn't more fan-fiction (Book of Mormon and Dianetics, notwithstanding)

countdown to Merc99's mega-post...

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Originally Posted by Bobak

I just want to know the backstory to the biggest story on earth. I mean, c'mon, don't all you people have some intellectual curiousity --regardless of belief?

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I used to, back in highschool. There really wasn't anything I found that convinced me to subscribe to one theory or another.

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Originally Posted by Bobak

I already have issues with the Big Bang, as I took pains to note in the original post.

I just want to know the backstory to the biggest story on earth. I mean, c'mon, don't all you people have some intellectual curiousity --regardless of belief?

I'm surprised there isn't more fan-fiction (Book of Mormon, notwithstanding)

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How far back do you need to go? I mean seriously? Sure, thinking about it is fun, but doesn't there have to be a point where no one knows what happened? I guess we are already there, which is why we have the Big Gang Bang, Creationism, The Spaghetti Monster and my favorite, The Church of the Subgenius.

I have an easier time believing in the Big Bang than I do in some diety taking a personal interest in a single planet out of billions and billions, and deciding to create life "in HIS image" HERE of all places. Why not Alpha Centauri? Why not Pluto?

And I wasn't pointing out the Big Bang because I thought you bought into it. I'm just taking the "other side" of the hot topic at the moment, thanks to a lack of real news being covered.

Like you, I wouldn't assume it would be something our minds were even able to comprehend. I mean, what are you looking for, a Bible zero issue where God picked up a Hostess fruit pie and a super lotto ticket? I would think that even in religious terms, whatever came before would be completley beyond our grasp, so there was no attempt made to explain it.

When you were a year old, and your father left the house in the morning, not coming back until night, your mother would tell you he'd gone to work. But what did that mean to you? Your one year old brain would have no way of processing that into anything that meant anything to you. It was beyond your experience, until maybe a year or two later, your father takes you to work with him, you see and begin to understand. Before that, 'work' is just a word, maybe with some vague positive or negative connotation, depending on how tired he looked when he came home.

Now multiply the gap in understanding between your one year-old self and your father by two hundred zillion bajillion-- we are talking about the origin of the universe here...

It wasn't more than a few generations ago that sub-atomic particles were completely theoretical. It wasn't that long ago, we weren't able to register things in infra red or ultra violet spectrums. What makes you think we would be equipped to perceive all the elements that went into the creation of the universe with our 5 meager senses? (this is a generalized "you", since this seems t kind of be your view also in the first place) We've made great strides in the sciences in our short time here, but how close do you think we are to being able to perceive everything that goes on around us? 50%? 20%? 1%? Do you think we're close enough that we're going to bridge the gap in your lifetime? Your grandkids' lifetime? Great, great, great, great grandkids? How much do we understand of our own consciousness?

What I'm trying to ask, is that whatever God did before creating the universe, what makes you think you'd be able to understand it in the form of a story, with actions and events?

As for your "LOL they thought the world was flat", you're talking about the interpretations of the people of the time. If you had a time macine, went back in time, and explained to those same people about all the principles of the internal combustion engine -- in great detail -- how much do you think they'd be able to do with it? They'd have no way of manufacturing steel, to begin with. Then, it would be based on a bunch of scientific principles they had no knowledge of; no way of even proving or disproving. Chances are, they'd give it their best shot, but it would simply be beyond them, no matter how patient you were. As your combustion stories were passed down through the years (don't forget how long a lot of those early stories had been passed down before being recorded on paper and compiled), doubtless many subtle inadvertent alterations would appear, like in that childrens' game 'Telephone', which whould only grow larger as time went by, becoming more distant fom your original message.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and not think it necessary to write a full paragraph on how much more complicated and beyond any possible understanding by us the creation of the universe would be, than a car engine, blah blah blah, etc., etc.

Whatever he was doing, I'd say it's not comprehensible to us. Maybe everything before the Earth, and our notion of terrestrial matter, is beyond the limits of our created mental capacity. Maybe God is 4th dimensional- therefore nearly indecipherable to a species stuck in 3 dimensions. Maybe god is infinitely multi-dimensional- and we can only comprehend the first three of those infinitly variable aspects of god's reality. Just thinking.

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Originally Posted by SouthtownKid

What I'm trying to ask, is that whatever God did before creating the universe, what makes you think you'd be able to understand it in the form of a story, with actions and events?

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Isn't the whole point of religion to answer the unknown and explain it, somehow, to people? All I'm saying is the current explanation needs extra explaning because it isn't a complete story, it's like it cuts into the story of God and we're supposed to just run with it. C'mon, people.

"God is unknowable" is the biggest cop-out for writer's block I've ever heard.

procrastinating.

I imagine he was trying to 1cc The Twilight Zone pinball game, for am I not crafted in His image?

Southtown is writing another book.

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Originally Posted by Bobak

Isn't the whole point of religion to answer the unknown and explain it, somehow, to people? All I'm saying is the current explanation needs extra explaning because it isn't a complete story, it's like it cuts into the story of God and we're supposed to just run with it. C'mon, people.

"God is unknowable" is the biggest cop-out for writer's block I've ever heard.

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What you originally asked sounded like an honest question. What you're saying now is just dismissive and sarcastic of anyone with religious belief. Knock yourself out, if talking down to those people is entertaining, I guess.

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Originally Posted by melchia

Southtown is writing another book.

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No, the first in a collection of shorts. I'm typed out, and the coffee is taking effect. I'm starting to relax.

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Originally Posted by SouthtownKid

What you originally asked sounded like an honest question. What you're saying now is just dismissive and sarcastic of anyone with religious belief. Knock yourself out, if talking down to those people is entertaining, I guess.

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no, seriously...consider it from the perspective of a nonbeliever. to answer a serious question (what did god do before he created the universe?) by stating that 'god is unknoweable' seems ignorant. if we know god exists, what determines that he is unknowable?

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Originally Posted by Bobak

Isn't the whole point of religion to answer the unknown and explain it, somehow, to people? All I'm saying is the current explanation needs extra explaning because it isn't a complete story, it's like it cuts into the story of God and we're supposed to just run with it. C'mon, people.

"God is unknowable" is the biggest cop-out for writer's block I've ever heard.

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I believe the point of religion is Faith. Believing in something that is "unbelievable". I remember in the book of Job, when Job was complaining about his hardships, God spoke to him and asked him if he could answer any questions about the universe (space, earth, and beyond) it's laws, and how it was created. Job could not answer not one of those questions.

If God did decide to explain to us what was going on before he created this world, do you think our minds could process or comprehend the type of information he'd be giving us?

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Originally Posted by melchia

no, seriously...consider it from the perspective of a nonbeliever. to answer a serious question (what did god do before he created the universe?) by stating that 'god is unknoweable' seems ignorant. if we know god exists, what determines that he is unknowable?

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I already consider it from both sides, as I'm not a church-goer or one of the people who takes the Bible litterally.

What I'm saying is that we have more than enough things that are not presently explainable by science, that they shouldn't take it as that much of a cop out from religion.

What did god do prior to the big bang?.......




I guess eat a burrito?

Christians always had big difficulties with the events before a possible big bang or any other story we link to the "creation" of our universe.

The bible starts with the Book of Genesis, and Genesis starts with "in the beginning, god created heaven and earth"... which is okay because the (Greek) word genesis means creation in a humanocentric way, so the bible consequently stays on-topic and only tells us about the events concerning us humans and our relation to god and his minions.

In other words, a priest would probably tell you that anything which happened before creation is none of our business... of course he'd say this because he has no idea as well, only a bunch of weird theological theories about something that is beyond all theories and dogmatas, but sometimes a nice dogma comes in handy to pussy out of interesting debates, eh.

The big bang theory is fundamentally anti-dogma because it tries to pinpoint the exact time and location of creation, which stands in contrast to the religious concept of eternity and "heaven". However, there's a certain spiritual part left, and that's the spark which caused big bang and kicked off the creation of solar systems, planets, galaxies, etc. Either it was pure math or god, decide for yourself. Who knows, perhaps the answer is simpler than we think.

Thing is, this what we call big bang may just have been yet another beginning of a cycle of expansion and contraction of our uni- or multiverse that happened a million times before already and will go on forever and a day, until an ever-increasing entropy (aka satan, the anti-god, or anti-matter if you will) prevents another cycle... then all that will be left from the universe as we know it may be just a virtually endless space filled with black mass (i.e. nothing) - the end-all and be-all... doomsday.

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Originally Posted by Takumaji

Christians always had big difficulties with the events before a possible big bang or any other story we link to the "creation" of our universe.

The bible starts with the Book of Genesis, and Genesis starts with "in the beginning, god created heaven and earth"... which is okay because the (Greek) word genesis means creation in a humanocentric way, so the bible consequently stays on-topic and only tells us about the events concerning us humans and our relation to god and his minions.

In other words, a priest would probably tell you that anything which happened before creation is none of our business... of course he'd say this because he has no idea as well, only a bunch of weird theological theories about something that is beyond all theories and dogmatas, but sometimes a nice dogma comes in handy to pussy out of interesting debates, eh.

The big bang theory is fundamentally anti-dogma because it tries to pinpoint the exact time and location of creation, which stands in contrast to the religious concept of eternity and "heaven". However, there's a certain spiritual part left, and that's the spark which caused big bang and kicked off the creation of solar systems, planets, galaxies, etc. Either it was pure math or god, decide for yourself. Who knows, perhaps the answer is simpler than we think.

Thing is, this what we call big bang may just have been yet another beginning of a cycle of expansion and contraction of our uni- or multiverse that happened a million times before already and will go on forever and a day, until an ever-increasing entropy (aka satan, the anti-god, or anti-matter if you will) prevents another cycle... then all that will be left from the universe as we know it may be just a virtually endless space filled with black mass (i.e. nothing) - the end-all and be-all... doomsday.

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I like the way you think Tak.

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Originally Posted by SouthtownKid

What I'm saying is that we have more than enough things that are not presently explainable by science, that they shouldn't take it as that much of a cop out from religion.

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Work with me here:

My personal view: My own atheist belief is that man is only (in terms of the history of the earth, let alone the universe) a few moments past being apes. Thus I think the human mind, having only figured out how fire works a few hundred thousand years ago and basic civilization 10k years ago is incapable grasping the higher complexities of the universe that we ended up in. To put it another way, I like to say that after some declared god "dead", they mistakenly replaced the idea of an all-knowing god with the capacity of man... somehow missing a key factor of evolution.

So moving along to religion: as noted, religion is what answers things in a way that people can grasp. Then why didn't anyone write the pre-history to the extent that the over-confident scientists have tried to explain the history of the universe? Obviously there have been changing theories over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some scientist throw the current popular-theory all out of whack in our lifetimes. Why don't the major faiths and their "explainers of unknown phenomena" (i.e. theologians) do any serious research before the origin of humankind, the heavens, and try and understand god before there was what we know of as creation? Was there simply a vacuum before containing only some essence of God? Religion explains the unknowable so the masses can sleep at night (and, in many cases, face inequality without complaining too much). How now, brown cow?

If a few humorous embellishments in my writing sink my general comments, that's a bigger cop-out.

Humans have an inbred desire to explain things they don't understand. Religion and Science are both extensions of this compulsion. College types think that because Science is largely a factually based system it can't possibly fall prey to the to the failings of reason like those in Religion - Science has a hard time dealing with the concept that there are so many things we just aren't capable of understanding. I think the Scientists that perpetuate the Big Bang theory have PhD's in imagination... it's just so much BS and guesswork.

I think atheism is nonsense, I also think that being tethered to any specific religious denomination is equally as absurd. I can't comprehend how something can come from nothing. I'd like to think that everything, including our universe, has a beginning and an end (this goes against the principles of Atheism.) That's why agnosticism is the cat's vagina.

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Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins

Humans have an inbred desire to explain things they don't understand. Religion and Science are both extensions of this compulsion. College types think that because Science is largely a factually based system it can't possibly fall prey to the to the failings of reason like those in Religion - Science has a hard time dealing with the concept that there are so many things we just aren't capable of understanding. I think the Scientists that perpetuate the Big Bang theory have PhD's in imagination... it's just so much BS and guesswork.

I think atheism is nonsense, I also think that being tethered to any specific religious denomination is equally as absurd. I can't comprehend how something can come from nothing. I'd like to think that everything, including our universe, has a beginning and an end. That's why agnosticism is the cat's vagina.

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Atheism is not nonsense you stupid ass idiot shitface cuntrag bitch. OWNED.

Buttasuperb has a dick chin.

Hey just kidding man you know how I feel about you.

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Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins

Humans have an inbred desire to explain things they don't understand. Religion and Science are both extensions of this compulsion. College types think that because Science is largely a factually based system it can't possibly fall prey to the to the failings of reason like those in Religion - Science has a hard time dealing with the concept that there are so many things we just aren't capable of understanding. I think the Scientists that perpetuate the Big Bang theory have PhD's in imagination... it's just so much BS and guesswork.

I think atheism is nonsense, I also think that being tethered to any specific religious denomination is equally as absurd. I can't comprehend how something can come from nothing. I'd like to think that everything, including our universe, has a beginning and an end (this goes against the principles of Atheism.) That's why agnosticism is the cat's vagina.

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My cock has no beginning and no end. I twist it up into a Moebius strip for sport.

You and your crazy cock.

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Originally Posted by Magnaflux

My cock has no beginning and no end. I twist it up into a Moebius strip for sport.

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The girls must love that.

trash talkers indulge me: What happened before big cock?

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Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins

That's why agnosticism is the cat's vagina.

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you're a fucking tool. A cat's vagina? think about how fucking useless it is. Why does a pussy need a pussy?

moron.

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Originally Posted by Magnaflux

My cock has no beginning and no end. I twist it up into a Moebius strip for sport.

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sounds like you have a cock-ring.

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Originally Posted by Takumaji

The girls must love that.

trash talkers indulge me: What happened before big cock?

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I tried to make a Klein bottle, but would up with a cramp.

Having a non-orientable cock isn't as fun as it sounds.

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Originally Posted by wasabi

you're a fucking tool. A cat's vagina? think about how fucking useless it is. Why does a pussy need a pussy?

moron.

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I'm going to quote Prince here man.

"Let the baker bake the bread."

let me bake the bread Chaz, let me bake the fucking bread.

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Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins

I'd like to think that everything, including our universe, has a beginning and an end (this goes against the principles of Atheism.)

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Yeah, but what bothers me is that it seems to be sensible that creatures locked into a finite cycle of life and death would assume the entire universe operated on that level (similar to Plato's allegory of the cave). If we are, to an extent, idiots who can't know everything (which I believe), isn't assuming the world has a finite beginning or end just quietly falling back on that crutch?

Another question that comes off of that would be: Is there something troubling about a universe where time neither began nor will end?

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Originally Posted by Bobak

Yeah, but what bothers me is that it seems to be sensible that creatures locked into a finite cycle of life and death would assume the entire universe operated on that level (similar to Plato's allegory of the cave). If we are, to an extent, idiots who can't know everything (which I believe), isn't assuming the world has a finite beginning or end just quietly falling back on that crutch?

Another question that comes off of that would be: Is there something troubling about a universe where time neither began nor will end?

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I don't think believing that the universe began (or will end) is an extension of the nature of human (or any other) life. Humans are animate, matter isn't. Creatures live and die, but as far as we know matter can't be created or destroyed.

The 1st Law of Thermodynamics works well in our reality, but be that as it may it still doesn't hold water when trying to iron out the details of how our universe operates.

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Originally Posted by Magnaflux

Most non-Christians can't get it through their heads that we (Christians) don't see God as a big white guy with a beard in the sky.


I blame lack of education.

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'

Weren't humans created in his image, though? So, more or less the bearded guy architype works out... better than the bearded dragon would, I'm sure.