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http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/....ap/index.html
Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A leading Republican senator said Sunday that the Bush administration is making "a terrible mistake" in opposing a congressional ban on torture and other inhuman treatment of prisoners in U.S. custody.
Sen. Chuck Hagel, considered a potential presidential candidate in 2008, said many Republican senators support the ban proposed by Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War.
Norton, I just gotta ask...between gaming and politics, where do you find the time to eat and sleep?
I don't sleep.... I do speederz....Quote:
Originally Posted by melchia
And I hate videogames.
And I have nothing to do because I'm on wellfare.
Lol, nortons title is classic. A fine fishermen he is indeed.
I knew I liked youQuote:
Originally Posted by norton9478
Yes in war we should give the enemy the same RIGHTs that the average criminal has right here in our USA, yes that makes a shitload of sense. :rolleyes: *Grant it no one should run around just beating on someone or worse just to do it, but if information can be extracted through it's means, which as been used since the first war was fought, and it's within an "active war" be it conventional or unconventional (and/or "Protracted") then it's a neccessary measure that's taken by the dominant force once it can be ascertained that the enemy prisoner in question is high level enough to actually have knowledge of something. It won't do to beat a man who's a mere foot soldier just to know where a few tanks might be parked, but for much bigger things... hey, that's how warfare is.
Or we could always just go back to TNP (Take No Prisoners) Operations like in the past, and simply decimate whoever the enemy is back into the stone ages. If this is a case of torture OVERALL then I'd agree, it's it's a case of it should NEVER be used for extraction of crucial information "In-Field" then I'm against it. Next thing you know we'll be in talks to have a nuclear missile that will do it's job, only when it explodes it doesn't melt people with heavy radiation it merely projects images of absolute sugar sweet faggotry that's so repulsive people spontanously combust! Yes, that would be the PC thing to do. A weapon of war that still kills, but you leave with a smile on your face but combustion of sensory overload.
Ahh well, the whole world is candy assed enough as it is... why would this be any different?
GK
People like you are the reason 9/11 happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly King
Lets take that one to the bank.
I don't know you personally so I can't say with 100% accuracy, but from what I've observed from your posts and ultimately "POV" I'd say it's ppl like you who will always make sure some candy assed bullshit is ALWAYS a factor. Let's give criminals the right to sue someone who protected themselves but now must prove they were within their rights! Let's play patty cake with the UN, because lord knows Koffi Annan and the rest of the group have the secrets to the universe and ultimately know what's best for the entire world! Let's help proliferate more citizens to depend on someone else or some new organization to do for them... thus continuing a "Plantation Mentality" that crosses all social and ethnic groups!Quote:
Originally Posted by BoriquaSNK
Let's declare firearms wrong and ultimately evil, and force them out of law abiding citizens hands who have a right to keep and bear them! Let's all gather round the camp fire to suck eachothers dicks and be merry! Let's give more ROE to our soldiers and assist in the deaths of them because they've got to worry about this or that, or what grenade to throw at what target, and if they should interrogate/extract possible crucial Intel from the enemy... BECAUSE the enemy has "Rights" too!
I'm sorry but it's that DemoSocialist attitude that has helped (albeit with more than enough Rightist "Corporatism" no less) put things in the shitter. Hey, you feel as you do great, but while my way may not be the best way, your side has proven time and again that the new way of doing things is what has made our nation waaaaaaaay to laxed, and everyone's a fucking blame-it-on-someone-else type, instead of seeing their own problems, and then working from there with others towards some sort of "Common Sense" way of living. Not this top down, self righteous We-Are-The-World crap that ultimately does more harm than good, and then when the shit hits the fan and the only way to WIN is to conduct the bloody business that War ultimately is... well now you've got some leftist POS reporter out there helping give away positions and other stuff on International TV, and getting ppl killed. Or someone who did their job on the battlefield and managed to survive comes home, is demonized and berated... used as a scapegoat, and fucked for life (if not imprisioned) because they didn't follow the ROE... only in doing so, they came home. The others who worried about it are dead. I agree with the comments that come in from the field from Non Coms stating... "Pick up an insurgent weapon and frag that reporter fuck!"
Well fuck that, and fuck that mentality! I mean it's bad enough people have to hear that crap spewed about "I support our troops but..." NO, if there's a but in there you're full of crap! If someone truly supports the troops they wouldn't have a hand in throwing in their 2 cents, votes, or media spins to see that our men in the active duty, reserves, national guard, and intelligence feilds don't have both hands tied behind their backs and a rubber band around their balls. Because that's what all this crap ultimately leads to. Good men and women killed for some soc hopped PC bullshit. But is anyone going to claim responsiblity for those men and women killed? Of course not. They're ass fucked stance didn't have anything to do with it, this war or another war. Pfffft! :annoyed:
i agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoriquaSNK
i find the problem with gk talking about politics is, well, the same problem i'd have with any other jarhead talking about politics --- they can clean guns just fine, but they're hardly humanistic and rarely have a comprehensive knowledge of history and politics.
anyone who's eager to side with ANY argument or feels they owe their allegiance to anything other than HUMANITY is automatically impossible to have an intelligent, open-minded discussion with --- because they're already fallen prey to the hegemony of the state and its "divide and conquer" methodologies of controlling the people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly King
Merc, give me a break. You're a pretty intelligent guy, I know this. So why do you subscribe to the shit you're fed in the media?
The United States is a two party system because it STIFLES PROGRESSION and HELPS CONTROL THE PEOPLE. With the help of the media, the US Govt and its backers [World Banks] push whatever agendas they WISH through the courts by DEMONIZING the opposing viewpoints.
It's the same method used in world history to push forward WORLD WIDE agendas and train history along a certain route. Things have always fallen so neatly into two categories --- the good and the evil --- when you and I both know the world is so much more complex. Terrorism is this generations Communism, and it'll be used to push ahead agendas, laws, wars, and ideas that would've otherwise been quelled by the common sense of the people.
No argument there man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Aphex
My point is I'm neither for the Right or Left. I'm simply for the "Constitution" and the three Fs' > Fighting, fucking & freedom! And more to the point being self reliant and encouraging others to do so, and/or get with one another to be more vigiliant and reliant from a "Community" POV reminding and telling the elected heads they work for us, not the other way around, nor should we be living in fear of them. That's horseshit and YOU know it as well as I do. The only reason nothing totally Fascist and/or Communistic in nature has ever occured across the board is because there's still too many die-hard BSA and/or "Dog Soldier" types as well as historically minded citizens who are armed and will not be branded a criminal because of something that is their right. Yet at the same time most on the left see no problems with helping along more federal government dependence. THAT is why I don't respect most (MOST) of the left. However, I have my problems with the right because of the "Corporatist" who don't give a rats ass about anything other than lining their damn pocket books and their friend pocket books and screw everyone else. Thus sadly I'm forced (and I'm speaking for me) to vote for whomever is going to uphold the 2nd Amendment because without it nothing else is going to keep the machine off our backs.
Some could say "don't vote at all then," but then I'd be failing to at least partake in an election process the men of the past died for us to have, and I could not voice my opinions and/or solutions to problems. One who does not excersize their "Right" be it fubar or not I do not hear them as most of the old school will not either. However I'll be the first to state the right is doing some shit I don't agree with as well.
GK
I don't vote.
Never have, never will.
I'd rather watch a circus act than perform in it.
Look GK, I have no problem with you personally. I have an enormous problem with what you see as the solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly King
Everyone has rights, this is a free country. You being a man of God, you should understand that the golden rule applies to everyone. People who have committed crimes should be punished...but they are still human beings and should be treated as such.
There's nothing weak or liberal about that. Torture is both wrong, and useless in the military. Had you actually served, you might have learned that. I'll tell you what Laura Bush's poon hair looks like if you strap electrodes to my balls, whether I know it or not.
Your complaints seem to stem from the fact that you can't shoot people more than they actually stem from sincere concern for society.
After 9/11, your attitude was "let's blow up the arabs." I fail to see how that could ever, EVER, EVER solve the problems we have today.
Your solution lacks context, it lacks cultural understanding, and it lacks any sincere thought.
Sure a lot of grunts complain about having to ask permission to shoot people, that is why they are grunts.
The Constitution deliberately separates the military and the government, the fact that the two have become so much more cohesive lately should be unnerving. There's a reason there are only 400,000 marines.
You can complain about being PC (I always thought it was just common courtesy, but apparently Republicans want to be able to tell Jew jokes in public guilt free), or of the Dems being "soft", but it was us that ensured that we stayed on top in the face of the Soviets.
I went to vote and choked. I couldn't vote for Bush or Kerry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abasuto
I ended up choosing Badnarik. I went out to the car and called a friend.
"Who did you vote for?"
"I don't know, I think his name was Mike. I voted for Mike."
And that's how I do my part.
#1> Well I'm a soldier (of many definitions) and my place is to war for a cause at all times. And from the standpoint of a Conservative "Constitutionalist" my loyalty lies with the mission of keeping the everyman self reliant with less federal government hand outs and proliferation of dependency. Though I'll not make a secret of the fact a good portion of "The Right" pisses me off to high hell as well. They are not safe from being judged by the true Americans who understand they're full of shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoriquaSNK
#2> On the Marine thing, yeah there is. Can you imagine 800,000 well armed, well trained 100% Semper Fi "OORAH!" Gung Ho Marines all pissed off and spoiling for a fight? ;) *However, don't count out the non active duty Marines as unlike being IN most branches, once a Marine always a Marine.
#3> Common Courtesy is one thing, but when that common courtesy begins to lack common sense and we have a nation where everyone out there who would break the law automatically has more "rights" than someone who doesn't break any laws save maybe a traffic violation, then that's where I have a problem. I'm sorry but the Right traditionally speaking has always been in favor of a punk getting what they deserve, not the left. The left wants to argue that even a punk has rights. Well that's poppycock. The minute you or I decide to commit a crime of any sort against another person, their property etcetra, you forefit your rights. Then there's the whole Anti-Gun shit that again, traditionally (at least within the last 30 years anyhow) the left wants to demonize the law abiding gun owner, hunters, interested parties for a militia and/or "enthusiasts action groups" because they see it as no longer needed, and we've seen how well the feds govern stuff and come to the assistance of the people. Bottom line is is that today most of the laws on the books only effect the people who abide by them not the people breaking them, because a criminal doesn't give a fuck either way.
So if things could be kept to common courtesy and the whole "don't defend yourself, let the cops handle it" mantra wasn't put into our kids right up from the school system up then I wouldn't have a problem with it.
#4> Traditionally speaking yes it was indeed the Democrats who had some great platforms and did a lot of good. It was the left that sought out the Communist and weeded them out. But I'd stand to say that after the assassination of JFK (who no doubt had his skeletons no different than anyone else) things on the left went to shit. As of 2005 by and large (not all) the left and more to the point the Democrats have whether intended or not, adopted a take on life that is more towards what we fought against, that they led the fight against from 1946 till 1991. Things might be under different banners, the end result may not neccessarily be the old hammer & sickle but it's so damn Socialist/Commie in nature it makes me sick just thinking about it. Hence the term DemoSocialist, and while it's not the traditional hardline Commie stuff we fought against, the mission is the same be it foreign or domestic, that line of thought I am against 300%. I want the stupid laws taken off the books, I want the harassment of law abiding gun owners stopped, I want the proliferation of "Dependent" halted, and overall I want the damn generations now to realize we're just as much to blame as any elected representatative and come together (without violence believe it or not) and get this country back on track. Because the heads we elect and the bodies under those heads are supposed to work WITH the people not just FOR the people. Be it GWB, or whoever... that man works for me, you and everyone else who's a tax payer. I'm his fucking boss, what we say goes not the other way around. Like I said before the only reason nothing major has ever happened is because the cost to be the boss (totally) is a high one. The very people the average leftist today hates be them on the right or not who pro gun, pro military etc. are the very ones standing in the way of absolute corruption and takeover. But I know it's "Conspiracy Theories" right? :rolleyes:
Not to say the right doesn't have it's own problems indeed because it does, but it seems to be more leaning towards Corporatism all around, which up until now has only been certain factions of it.
Couldn't have said it better myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly King
I wish I could vote for the Bull Moose party in 2008.
Teddy Roosevelt would whip this country back into shape.
Edit: lol, looks like they still exist (albeit it appears to be more in spirit then an actual viable party):
http://www.bullmooserepublicans.com/about/
We should have pile driven afghanistan into the toilet when that 9/11 shit went down. Seriously, North Korea is plotting a fucking nuclear holocaust, and we are in the mud in Iraq? Why not just look for gold on the moon? We just keep chewing the fat.
I feel sorry for my firends who are in this war. A good deal of troops think this war is ridiculous.
Actually we are, and that has as much, if not more, bearing on this particular war as any midirected crusade against Islamofascism...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Wolfgang Krauser
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly King
you're a genius.Quote:
Originally Posted by zer0hue
nobody else knows about that.
wow.
i'm impressed.
anyways, related:
ever wonder why bush decided for that push to mars a while back?
he awarded nasa xx.xx$ tax-payer dollars in order to fund NEW DRILLING TECHNIQUES AND TECHNOLOGY for bases on Mars/Moon.
who do you think nasa is involved with for the research?
halliburton.
who gets to keep the technology after the development?
nasa AND halliburton.
anyone aware of the current state of oil production, peak oil, the bell curve of oil production, etc, understands that oil becomes more expensive not only because of the scarcity --- but because the cost of drilling exceeds profitability.
well, not with new drilling technology.
Or perhaps it's because of you, sir, with your idealistic belief that these animals just haven't received enough tender loving care from the people they're trying to murder.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoriquaSNK
Ever stop to consider that terrorists probably don't give a flying donkey dungpile about how nice we are to them? Recall that the terrorists we're dealing with here see no problem with cutting off the fucking heads of innocent people.
But yeah, let's be nicer to them - give them more rights. I'm sure they'll play fair if we do.
FUCK THAT - you get what you give. And these pieces of shit should be treated like the fucking animals that they are.
P.S. Merc is right.
The term "Islamofacism" is a small symbol of how derrailed US policy is. Islam is about religion and, as an extension, theocracy. Fascism is about exalting the nation and/or race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader (adopted from m-w). The two forms don't mix because fascists, as history demonstrates, Fascism is about a strong central leader who exerts and obsesses with god-like control over the lives of their subjects. Several were devoid of religion. If anything, the term "Islamofacist" (which seems to have only appeared in the lexicon post-Iraq invasion), is a way of making the Islamic terrorists seem more understandable to Joe and Jane Dumbshit by trying to link it to a term that people in the US popularly associate with the, well...
Godwin's Law, anyone?
Right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobak
Fascism is about a strong central leader who exerts and obsesses with god-like control over the lives of their subjects.
Replace the "central leader" with "group of ruling clerics" and you're pretty much in line with the kinds of governments that the term refers to.
Pretty much like what the Taliban was doing in Afghanistan. You're telling me that they weren't "exertong or obsessing with god-like control over the lives of their subjects"?
PS. I want to see McCain run for Pres in 08.
GK.....
Seriously...
Lets get one thing straight...
We are talking about John Fucking Mcain here....
One of TWO republicans that leftests have respect for (the other being Powell).
Let me put it to you like this.
1. John McCain served his country
2. John McCain Killed hundreds or thousands of Commies.
3. John McCain was captured.
4. John McCain was FUCKING TORTURED.
5. John McCain made the decision to GET TORTURED rather than accept special Treatement.
So if JOHN McCain says that Torture is WRONG... THen I'll belive him....
Before I'll listen to a bunch of dodgers like Bush, Cheney and Rummy.
P.S. What Kind of Christian are you?
Careful, Norton took his crazy pills today.Quote:
Originally Posted by norton9478
Shit, they don't even need a recruiter as long as people like you and Alberto Gonzo are around.Quote:
Originally Posted by galfordo
Yeah, Me and John McCain are a bunch of Wacos.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnaflux
Or so Karl Rove lead people to belive.
That's the modern definition of facism..... yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by JHendrix
I wish he wasn't screwed over so bad in 1999..... He got the raw deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by JHendrix
While I have reservations about McCain (Tho. I do prefer him H. Clinton), I do admire his service, and most importantly his independence.
If he had gotten the nomination, SHit would not be so bad in this country......
Either Gore would have won.... Or he would have won.
P.S.
Bush is the #1 recruiter for Islamic Militants......
I'm beginning to think he's got a lifetime supply...Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnaflux
I would be very surprised if McCain won the nomination for 2008. Too many people in the conservative base view him as a RINO. Similarly, most people I know who've met him have said that he doesn't have a particularly charismatic presence. One person I know who was really fired up to meet him (rally for the 2000 elections) was disappointed by how subdued he was in person.
Agreed. Reactionism never works, no matter what you believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoriquaSNK
I'd give a more solid argument, but honestly, I don't know if it's worth the time.
But if only McCain is nominated... Finally, a Republican I can actually respect. Too bad it'll never happen.
When it comes to stuff like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by melchia
I'd rather be crazy than right anyday...
McCain does have something good going for him....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ely13
The Moderates in his party are becoming more and more fed up with the religous right...
if this rift continues, the unholy aliance will be broken and the Idealogist Radicals will become marginalized.
Then all the planets will align, there will be peace on Earth, kernow will start attending church services, the English will learn to spell and all of the Middle East will implode.Quote:
Originally Posted by norton9478
Yeah that's possible...Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnaflux
Or at least we would have a president who isn't a complete fucktard.
:kekeke:Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnaflux
The Republican Party has always been split (at least in relevant 20th century political history) between the fiscal Republicans (who could generally care less about religion, much less legislating intelligent design) and the religious crowd. I know many lukewarm Democrats who'd change party alliance in a heartbeat if the Republican party rid itself of the bible thumpers.Quote:
Originally Posted by norton9478
Honestly, most of the disaffection I hear directed towards the Republican party is either:
(1) Due to the religious crowd
(2) Due to the general lack of support for a national health care program (as a number of scientists have told me, 'it's absolutely ridiculous that America has the most advanced medical care available in the world and no health care')
Are you a yellow dog, norton?
How About Sanatorum/Frist 2008?
Hopefully they will be looking for work by then.
The democrats sent all the crazy religous people over to the republican side in the 50's......Quote:
Originally Posted by Ely13
It's hard for me to take that man seriously after the gutting he took during the Daily Show episode on Terri Schiavo.Quote:
Originally Posted by norton9478
Why would you call me that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnaflux
Because I'd prefer McCain to Hillary?
Yeah..... I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ely13
Maybe he will be Indicted before then anyways....
Kinda hard to run for president while your under Indictment.
The attitude that torture is acceptable for us to use on our enemies is foolish. If we torture terror suspects to get information, it makes it legitimate for people who kidnap americans to torture them. Surely this is unacceptable. This is besides the fact that the information we have been getting from these al qaeda suspects that have been tortured is not usually true. Take the recent terror scares in New York and Baltimore based on totally unreliable information.
Not only that, but when the guy being tortured comes back home, imagine all of the lovely things he will say about america. It only creates more terrorists.
The terrorists don't hate freedom or anything like that, but they do hate some of the things that america represents. America has become imperialistic, and the Iraq war is the prime example of it. We wanted a man removed from power in a country, and so we manipulated all of the facts in order to get the war that the president wanted. The writing is on the wall. Combine that with a questionable strategy in the country, torture occurring in CIA secret prisons, the double standard we have with countries like Iran, North Korea, and Sudan, and our general sense of ethnocentricity and insane muslim fundamentalists find themselves compelled to attack us.
I'm not defending the terrorists, what they are doing is utterly indefensible. But the solution to the problem cannot tarnish our image. Unfortunately, this Iraq war gives the terrorists plenty of ammunition against us.
I didn't call you that, I asked if you were or not. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by norton9478
I'm not a Yellow Dog Democrat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnaflux
I'm not even a Democrat.
I'm a Progressive and registered Green.
I voted Nader in 2000.
Despite being in NY (A decidedly Kerry state), I still voted for Kerry in 2004.
I vote my conscience.
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobak
we know, norton. we know.Quote:
Originally Posted by norton9478