Shenmue 3 Kickstarter

[SonGohan]

I'm not a Shenmue fan so I really have no stake in this, but this being on Kickstarter is really shitty with a fucking backing from Sony.

 

[Taiso]

I'm not a Shenmue fan so I really have no stake in this, but this being on Kickstarter is really shitty with a fucking backing from Sony.

I'm not defending Sony here.

I just think that Sony has seen these older franchises as dinosaurs of an aging fanbase that is either moving away from games or losing interest in the older IPs. They're looking at it like businessmen, not like gamers. And Sony's gaming division is doing pretty good but the rest of the company is absolutely in the shitter. The higher ups are probably in a 'cost down' mode big time here. As I've said before, I worked for a major Japanese electronics manufacturer for 16 years and if they act anything at all alike (and they probably do, given how similarly shitty most Japanese companies are doing in these fields these days), it wouldn't surprise me to see Sony having little to no faith in products that they believe have a shrinking fan base.

Shenmue 3 is a fully 3D rendered game with deep gameplay elements, like learning a fighting engine, an attempt to simulate real life and society in an open world fashion, complete with full speech, full orchestral score, tons and tons of mini games and a pretty ambitious scope. Sega, the parent company for Shenmue, probably doesn't want to invest in it because to make a Shenmue game for a modern market that would be willing to buy it would be a mammoth undertaking. And Sega isn't doing very well moneywise either.

So I get Sony doing the Kickstarter thing. Especially given how Inafune and Igarashi went to Kickstarter to make their games. If they don't have to front the costs on a game that they feel is niche and, quite honestly, facing stiff competition in the 'modern open world' genre, they there's no logical reason for them to do so.

Them even digging Shenmue up from its grave is just politics. Sega can look like heroes for letting Suzuki make the game with Sony, who is on top right now because of the PS4's pure dominance, and Sony can have another big announcement for E3 2015.

Again, not defending. Just my observations.

 

[Jonmkl]

There've been a fair number of kickstarters where the creator has some sort of corporate backing, but that backer is going to weigh their support for the project based on the backing that fans are willing to throw behind it. For example, a project where the corporate backer agrees to match all donations that the kickstarter raises, or to throw in a couple million only if the kickstarter succeeds. Honestly, it's a good way to get a major company to throw funding behind something they would normally think is a major risk, and chances are how much Sony is willing to throw into the project depends on how much the fans are willing to pay.

I don't think it's unethical, but I do think if there are any concrete details of sony's involvement it should be stated in the kickstarter (though it's very possible that that support is still under negotiation and can't be legally discussed yet). I don't know why people would think this is an incorrect way to use kickstarter either, kickstarter IS just a glorified pre-order in most situations, it is rarely if ever something like an investment. It's not like they can write the money they make off on their taxes like donations.

If kickstarter is the only thing that will assure Sony they can make their money's worth, than yay kickstarter! They definitely know that to be true now.

 

[Jonmkl]

On another note, Sony is very quick to claim ownership over something. Take No Man's Sky for instance. Hello games refused funding from Sony so they would still have internal control and ownership over their game, but asked for a main stage appearance at E3 2014 in exchange for their game to launch first on PS4, that worked out great for them, but Sony is basically treating the game like its a first party Sony game now. They haven't secured permanent console exclusivity yet, but they speak publicly like they themselves are publishing it.

Sony saying "We did it" in relation to Shenmue III could fall along similar lines.

 

[Taiso]

I totally agree that transparency is the best thing for any manufacturers or publishers partially funding. In fact, I think most gamers would be grateful to know what's up. I think the partial backers should go one step further and just be honest about why they won't pay for the project's development. I think people are just tired of impenetrable corporate attitudes. They want honesty. That's why Kickstarter worked for Inafune and Igarashi in the first place. Because gamers believe they are helping people who've been shat on by their former employers to make the games that they love making and we love playing. That's, I believe, a sizable percentage of the sentiment behind successful crowdfunding of this type.

 

[ki_atsushi]

No Dreamcast version stretch goal? Fuck this shit.

 

[Marek]

So I'm confused.

Can someone explain to me how this is happening with the shenmue official IP as opposed to the spiritual sucxesor approach?

If sega wasn't smauging the IP then why hadn't it happened all ready?

 

[TonK]

So I'm confused.

Can someone explain to me how this is happening with the shenmue official IP as opposed to the spiritual sucxesor approach?

If sega wasn't smauging the IP then why hadn't it happened all ready?

Gaming today, trash
We've been spoiled for so long
16 bit or die

 

[DevilRedeemed]

Gaming today, trash
We've been spoiled for so long
16 bit or die

yes

 

[TheBigBB]

Gaming today, trash
We've been spoiled for so long
16 bit or die

There are tons of games being done by small-time developers who have this exact sentiment in mind. Do you seriously think that none of the modern 2D sprite-based games are any good? Example: Shovel Knight.

 

[SonGohan]

I'm not defending Sony here.

I just think that Sony has seen these older franchises as dinosaurs of an aging fanbase that is either moving away from games or losing interest in the older IPs. They're looking at it like businessmen, not like gamers. And Sony's gaming division is doing pretty good but the rest of the company is absolutely in the shitter. The higher ups are probably in a 'cost down' mode big time here. As I've said before, I worked for a major Japanese electronics manufacturer for 16 years and if they act anything at all alike (and they probably do, given how similarly shitty most Japanese companies are doing in these fields these days), it wouldn't surprise me to see Sony having little to no faith in products that they believe have a shrinking fan base.

Shenmue 3 is a fully 3D rendered game with deep gameplay elements, like learning a fighting engine, an attempt to simulate real life and society in an open world fashion, complete with full speech, full orchestral score, tons and tons of mini games and a pretty ambitious scope. Sega, the parent company for Shenmue, probably doesn't want to invest in it because to make a Shenmue game for a modern market that would be willing to buy it would be a mammoth undertaking. And Sega isn't doing very well moneywise either.

So I get Sony doing the Kickstarter thing. Especially given how Inafune and Igarashi went to Kickstarter to make their games. If they don't have to front the costs on a game that they feel is niche and, quite honestly, facing stiff competition in the 'modern open world' genre, they there's no logical reason for them to do so.

Them even digging Shenmue up from its grave is just politics. Sega can look like heroes for letting Suzuki make the game with Sony, who is on top right now because of the PS4's pure dominance, and Sony can have another big announcement for E3 2015.

Again, not defending. Just my observations.

I know you said you weren't defending Sony, but I think all the reasons you gave for them putting the risk on the fans is still bullshit. That's what Kickstarter is --you're guaranteed nothing. When I buy a game from somebody like, say, Microsoft, I have the comfort of knowing that they have a system in place that allows for quality control and customer service. When I preorder a game from them, there's been significant investment from them in making sure the game comes out good, on time, and is actually delivered. I'm also guaranteed my money back if the game is cancelled, or I can pull out at any time with no risk. I've also been able to receive substantial information on the game before I decide to put down any money.

I get people using sites like Kickstarter to fund projects like games and movies that don't have a chance to see the light of day because they don't have the support of a company big enough to see it through. I think it's kind of incredible that the Angry Video Game Nerd got his movie funded through something like that, because it's not like Paramount was going to greenlight it, nor could he have done it solely on his own. But this is like another member said --it's a glorified pre-order, only you aren't guaranteed anything, and it could be years before you even get it. And let's say you don't get anything after years of waiting, then what? Kickstarter basically says your only option is to publicly shame them. It's not like you can do a charge back after all that time (or maybe you can --I've never seen it done). Sony could've held a campaign for Shenmue 3 on their own website and bypassed all the fees that would've been taken out for using Kickstarter, but even that is too much of a commitment for them.

I think it's a really shitty thing to do. And you're right --it only puts a magnifying glass on the fact that Sony doesn't have any faith in the product. People have bitched before when celebrities used Kickstarter to fund their own personal projects, and I didn't agree with them for their criticisms...but for some reason, this particular one really rubs me the wrong way. I think it can set a dangerous precedent for other gaming companies to follow. Imagine Yoshinori Ono putting up Street Fighter 6 on Indiegogo in 2017, takes your money, and then delivers some garbage in 2020, and then finding out Capcom was still behind it, but you can't go to them, or anybody else for a refund because something happens like it doesn't even work, or you didn't even get it. I'm not comfortable with that at all...

 

[TheBigBB]

The concept of stretch goals in this case is also ridiculous. What if this Kickstarter campaign struggled to hit the 2 million? Would they really release the game with less content? Does it make any sense to purposely release a worse game? They literally don't even need that extra 2 million to put this content in the game. If the content would make the game better, the traditional thought process is that it will help sell the game. I understand their reasons for doing things this way. It just shouldn't be a valid use of Kickstarter to come up with arbitrary money values that fans can donate to convince you to make your product a complete package.

 

[Taiso]

In regards to Sony, they've put themselves in the hole with shitty, outdated business practices. Like a lot of Japanese companies (look at the video game industry for a perfect example), they're fucking out of touch with their markets. They did business in so many shitty ways like they've always been doing that they have no one to blame but themselves.

The 'cost down' thing (and believe me, I've sat in board rooms and listened to Japanese men utter that phrase like it's a fucking mantra) is one of their first resolutions to solving financial woes. Not 'how do we improve our image' or 'how can we make more money?' but 'How can we stop sending money?' It's ass backwards and ignores the fact that there is still a shitton of money to be made out there if they'd just adapt.

They suck. There's no way around that. And that's why they're only partially backing Shenmue III. Cost down.

 

[TheBigBB]

In regards to Sony, they've put themselves in the hole with shitty, outdated business practices. Like a lot of Japanese companies (look at the video game industry for a perfect example), they're fucking out of touch with their markets. They did business in so many shitty ways like they've always been doing that they have no one to blame but themselves.

The 'cost down' thing (and believe me, I've sad in board rooms and listened to Japanese men utter that phrase like it's a fucking mantra) is one of their first resolutions to solving financial woes. Not 'how do we improve our image' or 'how can we make more money?' but 'How can we stop sending money?' It's ass backwards and ignores the fact that there is still a shitton of money to be made out there if they'd just adapt.

They suck. There's no way around that. And that's why they're only partially backing Shenmue III. Cost down.

Nice insight there. It kind of reminds me of what happens in sports when a team plays to hold onto a lead rather than to win a game. Usually the other team makes a comeback at that point. On the bright side for the fans, Shenmue 3's campaign is going way better than anyone probably dreamed it would. Most likely we will end up with the game that we deserve, thanks to the fans who care so much about it.

 

[ki_atsushi]

I can't believe how many rubes are still out there. $2 million in 8 hours, are you fucking kidding me? Wes is right, there is no recourse if you end up with a shitty product, a late product, or even no product at all.

I say if a game can't float on it's own merits it doesn't need to exist. Fuck kickstarter.

P.S. - Those stretch goals are terrible too. No Spanish or Italian version unless it gets a couple hundred thousand more for each? How much money do those translators fucking make!?

I really gotta say it again, I'm very surprised there's no DC version stretch goal. Fanboys would nut in their pants so hard it would flood the room.

 

[Jonmkl]

The concept of stretch goals in this case is also ridiculous. What if this Kickstarter campaign struggled to hit the 2 million? Would they really release the game with less content? Does it make any sense to purposely release a worse game? They literally don't even need that extra 2 million to put this content in the game. If the content would make the game better, the traditional thought process is that it will help sell the game. I understand their reasons for doing things this way. It just shouldn't be a valid use of Kickstarter to come up with arbitrary money values that fans can donate to convince you to make your product a complete package.

You do know that content costs time and money right? It doesn't matter if they want to put something in, or if it would make the game better, if they don't have the money to make it happen. Look at some of the animated shows that have to cut corners to meet budget, especially the Japanese ones where the quality can vary DRASTICALLY by episode. You don't think the creators want sexy smooth animation throughout? You don't think that top quality animation would make the series sell better and age better? But if they don't have the money to pay for it none of that matters.

Big video games are just like animation nowadays, there are teams of hundreds of people working on them, and without money to pay for those people, you'll just have to settle for a smaller game with less features.

 

[MadAsgardian]

Can someone explain to me how this is happening with the shenmue official IP as opposed to the spiritual sucxesor approach?

From the FAQ: "SEGA has officially given us the rights to use the "Shenmue 3" license."

If sega wasn't smauging the IP then why hadn't it happened all ready?

As for why... well, the first two games weren't successful financially. This way, Sega can reap the potential rewards without risk (this is not a traditional Kickstarter, Sony will be funding the bulk of it).

 

[MadAsgardian]

You do know that content costs time and money right? It doesn't matter if they want to put something in, or if it would make the game better, if they don't have the money to make it happen.

This isn't a traditional Kickstarter like Shadowrun Returns though... they already have a publisher, Sony is funding the game. If they wanted that stuff in there they could just put it in there.

 

[Jon]

I really gotta say it again, I'm very surprised there's no DC version stretch goal. Fanboys would nut in their pants so hard it would flood the room.

Most of those fanboys you mention are sitting on Euro DC releases of Shenmue 2, myself included. This happened a long time ago so, I'm trying to remember exactly what I did. IIRC, if you wanted to import everything over from your US copy of Shenmue, it was an extremely complicated process. You had to email the game save to an email account using the Dremcast browser and then download it to an actual PC. After that, it had to be hex edited to be acceptable for the Euro release. The second part I was never successful at...I was able download a save online.

There were several other step but, rather than delving into them, imagine trying to do this today. Does the infrastructure for DC even exist anymore? Would you have to have that really expensive DC Broadband modem to even access it?

Interesting questions...I wonder if Yu Suzuki and crew considered this when choosing (have they officially chosen?) not to do a DC release of Shenmue 3. Because you know the fanboys would REALLY be crying if they couldn't import all their Virtua Fighter figures over to the new one.

Jon

 

[lithy]

+1 to a Shenmue kickstarter being the ultimate blueballed nerdtroll.

 

[Jonmkl]

This isn't a traditional Kickstarter like Shadowrun Returns though... they already have a publisher, Sony is funding the game. If they wanted that stuff in there they could just put it in there.

If they were convinced they would make that money back, absolutely, but most likely, the amount that Sony is willing to spend on the project is going to depend entirely on the fan reaction they see from the kickstarter. Sad as it is, it's probably the only way they know that can get them solid numbers to base their investment on.

It's also very possible that Yu Suzuki and Ys Net would rather Sony be a partial supporter, than have them bankroll the whole thing. Having their own funds (or rather their backers funds) to bring to the project could help them secure some level of independence and creative flexibility.

 

[TheBigBB]

You do know that content costs time and money right? It doesn't matter if they want to put something in, or if it would make the game better, if they don't have the money to make it happen. Look at some of the animated shows that have to cut corners to meet budget, especially the Japanese ones where the quality can vary DRASTICALLY by episode. You don't think the creators want sexy smooth animation throughout? You don't think that top quality animation would make the series sell better and age better? But if they don't have the money to pay for it none of that matters.

Big video games are just like animation nowadays, there are teams of hundreds of people working on them, and without money to pay for those people, you'll just have to settle for a smaller game with less features.

But that statement only makes sense if you're a small time developer who doesn't have the time and money to make content in the first place. When you're backed by Sony, it's totally arbitrary to just ask for an extra million bucks. It's not about the time and money. It's about making the fans prove they want it.

 

[DNSDies]

Sony isn't "putting the risk on fans", they're basically treating the kickstarter thing as a pre-order system.
It's 100% to prove the viability of investing FURTHER in the game and the idea of a later return after release.

There's a lot of reasons to believe that Shenmue 3 wouldn't sell.
It's a stiff series, filled with QTE segments and bad voice acting. To any corporate head, it looks like a recipe for disaster, especially given how much modern gamers say they hate things like QTEs.

 

[outlaw_moon]

Being a Shenmue fan, I am very excited yet confused. Why not back this project fully Sony?

 

[SonGohan]

Sony isn't "putting the risk on fans"

lmao sure thing buddy